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How is faith a virtuous and reasonable attribute?

Well if a muslim joined a Buddhist forum, he would be considered a troll, if a Christian joined a Jewish forum he would be considered a troll, I don't see how atheism classifies as a religion, unless because it has that element of faith required that there is no God, when there isn't one way to understand for certain 100% one way or the other, But to call atheism a religion and join a religious forum to argue with people that believe in god, that does sound troll like.

1. Please show me in the RF rules that I need to be part of a religion to discuss and debate religion here.

2. Atheism is a belief system and I did not say it is impossible for a god/s to exist. I mainly argue against the existence of gods that I personally find very unlikely to exist.

3. If you find interacting with people who do not share your beliefs distasteful you do not have to.

This is the debate section of religious forums, if you do not wish to debate the topic of this thread please stop posting here, thank you.
 

Faybull

Well-Known Member
It has to do with a direct question, that you supplied unto me.

By your answer, you seem to affirm that good does indeed exist.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
You knew, by faith, that when you hit "post reply", it would post, yes?


Edit* post thread
That's not faith, it's statistically reasonable. How many times has it happened that you clicked 'post reply' and it didn't post? It reasonable to assume that pressing the button would post it not only because it implies it in the name of the button, but from experience with pressing the button.

It is also not faith that pianos wont fall from the sky suddenly for no reason when you're unprepared for it to happen.
 

McBell

Unbound
Well if a muslim joined a Buddhist forum, he would be considered a troll, if a Christian joined a Jewish forum he would be considered a troll, I don't see how atheism classifies as a religion, unless because it has that element of faith required that there is no God, when there isn't one way to understand for certain 100% one way or the other, But to call atheism a religion and join a religious forum to argue with people that believe in god, that does sound troll like.
Unfortunately for you, this is not a "religious" forum.
It is a "religious EDUCATION" forum started and maintained by an atheist.

Best I can see, YOU are the one trolling in this thread.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
In any case it takes just as much faith to absolutely deny God, as it does to absolutely affirm God, only the agnostic can truly defend his position without requiring any faith.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Faith is useful because it is something for hope to fall back on when reason says otherwise.

Faith must be used correctly in order for results to be positive. What you mention in the OP is faith used incorrectly.

Examples of good faith:
If I'm going to read a book, I can only have faith that I'll like it and it not being a waste of time.

I have faith that things will work out the way I expect them to determined by my course of actions.


It is bad faith when it contradicts terms of reason. Many people put so much faith into something that even when things start to go against it and it becomes unreasonable, they will continue to hold faith as hard as cement and be convinced it is all just a test - no matter how unlikely their faith becomes.
 

McBell

Unbound
In any case it takes just as much faith to absolutely deny God, as it does to absolutely affirm God, only the agnostic can truly defend his position without requiring any faith.
Fair enough.
At least, it would have been if you had left it at that.

But you went and brought up gravity...
And having food tomorrow...
And houses not burning down...
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Unfortunately for you, this is not a "religious" forum.
It is a "religious EDUCATION" forum started and maintained by an atheist.

Best I can see, YOU are the one trolling in this thread.

You may be right about the forum in general, but this is the religious debates section, and you're not religious, I assume, this is not the atheism debates section.
 

McBell

Unbound
You may be right about the forum in general, but this is the religious debates section, and you're not religious, I assume, this is not the atheism debates section.
You really should go and read the rules.
Your thinking the word religious should give you some sort of special pass will get you banned pretty quick.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Fair enough.
At least, it would have been if you had left it at that.

But you went and brought up gravity...
And having food tomorrow...
And houses not burning down...

I was just trying to point out that no one can exist without having some faith in some things. Faith is an important and very useful thing we all use in day to day life.
 

AllanV

Active Member
To skeptics faith is nothing more than the ability to suspend disbelief when common sense and reason would clearly support disbelief. I'm sorry, but to me faith is a measure of how purposely gullible a person can be. Am I wrong? Is there any rational argument for faith being a virtuous and reasonable attribute?
Faith has evidence. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. This is an enlivened word that energizes the mind and heart in fact the whole body. A person experiencing this as faith builds with the revealed evidence.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You really should go and read the rules.
Your thinking the word religious should give you some sort of special pass will get you banned pretty quick.

Thank you very much for your suggestion, I just read the forum rules, I was surprised they didn't go deeper into just what is and isn't accepted, I admit I am a confrontational person, I have been banned from my favourite violin forum for bickering with one of the moderators friends, so maybe I need to keep my "religious nonsense" in the religious nonsense sections, I agree and realize that this particular thread is not really a religion only thread, I am very against the christian concept of righteousness by faith, as taught by Paul, as it is a great excuse for not following rules about anything, just having "faith", perhaps this is not the appropriate place to comment, thank you.
 

McBell

Unbound
Thank you very much for your suggestion, I just read the forum rules, I was surprised they didn't go deeper into just what is and isn't accepted, I admit I am a confrontational person, I have been banned from my favourite violin forum for bickering with one of the moderators friends, so maybe I need to keep my "religious nonsense" in the religious nonsense sections, I agree and realize that this particular thread is not really a religion only thread, I am very against the christian concept of righteousness by faith, as taught by Paul, as it is a great excuse for not following rules about anything, just having "faith", perhaps this is not the appropriate place to comment, thank you.
Merely being a confrontational personality will not get you banned.
I have been with this forum for almost ten years.

You just need to keep in mind that there is a huge variety of beliefs here on RF and even amongst members of the same belief system there are sometimes rather large disagreements.
 
In any case it takes just as much faith to absolutely deny God, as it does to absolutely affirm God

I'm not sure if it takes as much "faith" to deny a god then it takes to affirm one but it definitely takes less effort to deny a god then to affirm one. Everyone's atheist and agnostic to some degree. How many gods don't you believe in? Belief systems that invoke the supernatural really turn me off. Either something exists (materially in the real world) or it doesn't. If a theist claims that their god or deity exists outside our universe than why should we be concerned with their god who is too good to slum it in our low rent universe with us? What if the god enters our world? Would it still be a god? Wouldn't a being in this universe regardless of where it came from still be bound by the same laws of physics we are?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
To skeptics faith is nothing more than the ability to suspend disbelief when common sense and reason would clearly support disbelief. I'm sorry, but to me faith is a measure of how purposely gullible a person can be. Am I wrong? Is there any rational argument for faith being a virtuous and reasonable attribute?

Blind, unquestioning faith is not particularly reasonable or virtuous.

However, not all faith is blind and unquestioning.

Most non-fundamentalist religious people do a lot of critical thinking about their religious tradition's history, scriptural texts, theology, and practice. They often approach their religious choices with complexity and nuance. They will often have experienced crises of doubt, periods in their lives of intense questioning, even leaving and returning to their religious practice. And, of course, they are not literalists, or "Biblical inerrantists," or so forth.

In fact, among Jews, we question a lot, and frequently. There is much made of the metaphorical significance of the name "Israel" (technically, we are the People Israel) meaning "he who struggles with God" or "he who wrestles with God," in the sense of questioning theology and analyzing what we believe and do in light of numerous philosophical points.

In the end, of course, I can only speak for myself, although I have discussed such matters with enough colleagues and friends to know I am not too far off from what they might say also.

When I chose to believe in God, and to believe that the enterprise of Judaism in which I was engaged was holy, it was a choice I made with serious deliberation, albeit with perhaps an unfair start. I had an experience I understood to be an experience of God, though of course I could not be 100% certain, both since it was without voices or visions (though of course those would've raised their own doubting questions, and possibly a request for an MRI), and because it was a subjective experience. But starting from there, I chose to believe that it had been an experience of God, that God did exist, that God was personal and immanent (and also, paradoxically, transcendant), and that it was the right thing for me to be an observant Jew.

Is it faith if I believe I have experienced God? I say yes, because the experience was subjective, and because I cannot be 100% certain that I am correct, even if that is what my heart tells me. So I choose to believe. I choose to have faith, and I don't believe that doing so is gullibility, or a mere suspension of common sense. I know that I am making a choice to believe something that is not concretely and objectively provable-- or disprovable.

But I also don't particularly see the harm. While I am not, and cannot be, 100% certain that I am correct and God does exist, I feel sure enough for my own comfort. And since I (like any Jew) do not actively proselytize and attempt to convince non-Jews of the validity of my position (much less atheist non-Jews), that seems harmless enough. And what's more, my religion gives me a framework to construct an ethical life. It gives me a framework to teach people not only about ethics and morality, but about asking hard questions, about approaching text and tradition in thoughtful ways that avoid both fundamentalism and secular apathy. It provides me with a satisfying methodology through which to channel my human desire to reach out for the numinous. It connects me with my people's history and culture, and one of the richest bodies of philosophical, legal, and poetic literature humanity has produced. It offers me a way to structure the cycles of life in ways that generate meaning. And, since I am a rabbi as is my wife, it provides us not only with communities, but opportunities to help those in the communities with comfort, guidance, teaching, advice, hospitality, or even just sympathy-- plus, of course, it provides us with a living (such as it is). In fact, since it was at rabbinical school that I met my wife, I suppose in a sense that's one more thing I owe to my religion.

Every day, I get the opportunity to use my religion to help people ask questions, to give them tools to help them find what they need to make their lives more meaningful and fulfilling; I get to use my religion to help frame people's happiness, give them tools to deal with their sadness, show them hope when they may feel hopeless, or offer advice toward better behavior if that's warranted-- all of which are things not limited to being a rabbi, but things any very involved and engaged Jewish community member might do. Plus, it's beautiful: beautiful poetry, music, literature, philosophy, cooking, jokes-- it's delightful.

So, it seems to me that faith has brought me a lot. And questioning deeply and critically before choosing to have faith, and continuing to ask hard questions afterward have not detracted from that faith.

I don't know if I would say that makes faith a "virtuous" attitude, but it seems reasonable enough to me, and certainly beneficial. Especially since the best answer I've gotten so far to asking "What would not having faith gain me?" seems to be something along the lines of "Then you'd know you weren't a dupe!" Which just seems silly to me, since I don't think I'm a dupe now. Everyone makes choices about what they will or will not believe, and subject to what evidence, and why.
 
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McBell

Unbound
I'm not sure if it takes as much "faith" to deny a god then it takes to affirm one but it definitely takes less effort to deny a god then to affirm one.
Seeing as there is a difference between denying a god and merely not accepting a god, I would tend to disagree.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
When did I say I wasn't agnostic?
000000000000
Merely being a confrontational personality will not get you banned.
I have been with this forum for almost ten years.

You just need to keep in mind that there is a huge variety of beliefs here on RF and even amongst members of the same belief system there are sometimes rather large disagreements.

Well I for one just love this forum, I was on another religions forum, and the bickering and one right way only fundamentalism, especially by the moderators, was depressing me immensely, i was afraid to express myself for fear of being called "not religious", here I can talk freely about most of my religious beliefs and theories and find people who think similarly, as well as people I disagree with, but the moderators are not the disagreeable people, like on the other forum. This place is great, thanks for the advice.
 
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