How is Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity an Outlier?

[Revoltingest]

Stretching the definition beyond religion, I originally assumed @Revoltingest was a "fundamentalist" libertarian until I saw him advocating things that are not strictly libertarian.

I am a fundamentalist.
But that is with respect to values.
Public policy must be based upon the strategy
which steers things maximally in that direction.
IOW....philosophical libertarian & political party
views can differ.


Think of it as playing a game of go....
The goal is to have more points than the opponent.
But to win, one sometimes sacrifices points in local
battles so as to maximize them in the overall game.

 

[exchemist]

"Culture"? I think I may have heard of that word before.

Reminds me of Gandhi's response when asked what he thought of "British culture", and his response was that they should try it.

Amen, Bro.

Is that right? The version of the story I heard was that Gandhi was asked, on a visit to Britain, "What do you think of Western civilisation?", to which he replied, "I think it would be a very good idea."

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that right? The version of the story I heard was that Gandhi was asked, on a visit to Britain, "What do you think of Western civilisation?", to which he replied, "I think it would be a very good idea."

I think of all the people I know who emigrated here from India,
& speak of how much better it is here. Yet not one person I've
known has ever left Ameristan for India.
Gandhi's cleverness was emptier than Bollywood.

 

[Left Coast]

Let us pray....

Poly!! Do not let @Sunstone corrupt your mind!

As to the question in the OP, I think one of the big distinctions of Protestant fundamentalism is an extreme emphasis on orthodoxy over orthopraxy. This distinguishes them even from other forms of fundamentalism (though perhaps not all). In them, the doctrine of Sola Fide (the notion that one is "saved" by faith alone) is distilled to its most extreme form. Salvation is reduced to adherence to a rigidly specific set of what one must or must not believe. This changes the dynamic of spirituality, and even social pressure, within their communities.

 

[exchemist]

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but the thought occurs to me that I quite often on this board see good and decent people talking about "religion" as if all religion was fundamentalist Protestant Christianity. Sound familiar? Or did the limb just now break beneath me?

To be forthcoming, I am fairly sure some know better but do not care, while others do not know better at all (and possibly do not care to know better). However, this thread is not directed to either of those groups.

Their members are welcome to join in, of course, but the thread itself is rather meant for those other good and decent people who do care that their usage of the word "religion" bears some greater resemblance to reality than does its usage as a virtual synonym for "fundamentalist Protestant Christianity".

With that in mind, I would ask posters to focus on responding to this question...

In what specific ways is fundamentalist Protestant Christianity NOT representative of Christianity as a whole -- and/or of religion as a whole?

Others have commented already on biblical literalism and the tendency towards exclusivism. One thing I would add is that there is no coherent body of doctrine. This is by design. They take sola scriptura and biblical literalism to such an extreme that there can be no authority interpreting scripture for others. This, it seems to me has several consequences.

One is the fissiparous nature of fundamentalist Protestantism. They are forever disagreeing and splintering off to found new assemblies formed of a handful of the truest of the True Scotsmen, as it were.

Another is that it seems to me this prevents them from ever learning, because they do not allow themselves to build on the insights of others, in the way that other denominations with a clerical hierarchy and a body of doctrine do. This in turn leads to them continually reinventing the wheel - often badly. And hence we get such aberrations as the rejection of science.

 

[exchemist]

I think of all the people I know who emigrated here from India,
& speak of how much better it is here. Yet not one person I've
known has ever left Ameristan for India.
Gandhi's cleverness was emptier than Bollywood.

It was just a reaction to being patronised, of course. He was trying to reassert pride in his country and shake off colonialism.

But I'm sure there will be plenty of Indians who visit the USA and think "this is not for me", just as I did when I lived in Houston for 2 years. I felt more at home in Dubai than I did in Houston (Dubai in the 1980s was quite Indian, in fact).

 

[Heyo]

In what specific ways is fundamentalist Protestant Christianity NOT representative of Christianity as a whole -- and/or of religion as a whole?

I guess I don't know enough about fundamentalist Protestants but to me no sect represents Christianity or religion. For any n Christians there are at least n+1 opinions about god and religion. There are tendencies and sometimes strongly enforced dogmata in cults but overall I wouldn't judge a human by the religion or denomination s/he is in.

 

[Kenny]

Boy, I don't know. I've always considered The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) to be fundamentalist/evangelical, and they certainly don't show any love in their demonstrations.

Of course, I could be in a garage and say I am a car too....

No... not fundamentalist evangelical.. more like eccentric fringe evangelical...

 

[Kenny]

Did Jesus declare war on others of different beliefs and values, who were not the religious hypocrites whom he did target? Did he go though the streets saying, "Drive out the gays. Stop that liberal agenda machine. Let's get someone who represents my values elected to public office so he can use his power to influence my religion being promoted in the culture to protect it from other belief systems and moral values." Did Jesus say or do any of that?

No, I'm afraid a war, is violence. It is force. It is the use of force to subdue others and deny them their liberties. It is violence, and it is obscene. And there is nothing about Jesus or what Christianity is about, that is reflected in those who call themselves Christian who do this. It is not through love at all. Love works no ill. War is an ill.

Depends on how you want to look at it.. certainly I don't accept "drive out the gays" but he did address the agenda machine tried to change the political atmosphere:

John 8:44 [Full Chapter]
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Not exactly a pushover.

 

[Windwalker]

Depends on how you want to look at it.. certainly I don't accept "drive out the gays" but he did address the agenda machine tried to change the political atmosphere:

John 8:44 [Full Chapter]
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Not exactly a pushover.

Here is what I said. "Did Jesus declare war on others of different beliefs and values, who were not the religious hypocrites whom he did target?"

I would side with Jesus in lambasting the religious hypocrites. I'm doing that right now in calling out these "war on culture" people who use Christianity as their banner shield. That's what Jesus attacked. You cannot produce any scripture where he acted and sounds like these war on culture Christians.

He did not go after other religions and cultures. He did not declare war on culture. Why are these folks doing something Jesus would be frankly incapable of doing? They are the Pharisees of today, and were Jesus here, he would say the same things he did above to them. Those verses apply to them, not gays, lesbians, tax collector, prostitutes, democrats, liberals, feminists, etc.

 

[Kenny]

Here is what I said. "Did Jesus declare war on others of different beliefs and values, who were not the religious hypocrites whom he did target?"

I would side with Jesus in lambasting the religious hypocrites. I'm doing that right now in calling out these "war on culture" people who use Christianity as their banner shield. That's what Jesus attacked. You cannot produce any scripture where he acted and sounds like these war on culture Christians.

He did not go after other religions and cultures. He did not declare war on culture. Why are these folks doing something Jesus would be frankly incapable of doing? They are the Pharisees of today, and were Jesus here, he would say the same things he did above to them. Those verses apply to them, not gays, lesbians, tax collector, prostitutes, democrats, liberals, feminists, etc.

I think you are confuscating what I was saying with what you are interpreting when I say "war on culture" and certainly, as you have stated, it doesn't match when I said I fight it with love..

But I certainly understand your point and would agree with your position (I'm just not saying that)

 

[Dawnofhope]

In what specific ways is fundamentalist Protestant Christianity NOT representative of Christianity as a whole -- and/or of religion as a whole?

There have been some excellent responses. I’d like to consider cultural context and to highlight that America is not representative of the experience of most other people in the world. The USA has the largest Christian population of any country in the world so in that sense is already quite unique and an outlier. So the majority of countries don’t have Christianity nearly as prominent in public life as the USA does.

While Christianity remains the largest religion in the world currently, Islam is likely to become the largest in about 50 years.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Obviously there are sizeable numbers of Hindus, Buddhists and adherents of other religions.



So it makes no sense to talk about fundamentalist Protestant Christianity in some way representing religion as a whole.

How about fundamentalist Protestant Christianity representing Christianity as a whole? A breakdown of numbers of proportions of Protestants compared to other Christians makes clear Protestant Christianity’s minority status.

Catholic (50.1%)
Protestant (36.7%)
Eastern/Oriental Orthodox(11.9%)
Other Christian (1.3%)

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

So Protestant Christians only make up just over a third of Christians worldwide and are not even the largest denomination within Christendom. So it would not make sense to talk about Protestant Christians representing Christianity worldwide.

If we were to breakdown the number of Protestant denominations worldwide it becomes clear there are literally hundreds if not thousands of groups. As a whole they are neither united or cohesive. Of these denominations fundamentalists probably make up a relatively small minority.

So fundamentalist Christians represent neither religion as a whole nor Christendom. The only reason to consider the question as remotely plausible is because of the current American context where a vocal minority has captured a disproportionate amount of attention in the public discourse in regards both religion and politics.

 

[Samael_Khan]

There have been some excellent responses. I’d like to consider cultural context and to highlight that America is not representative of the experience of most other people in the world. The USA has the largest Christian population of any country in the world so in that sense is already quite unique and an outlier. So the majority of countries don’t have Christianity nearly as prominent in public life as the USA does.

While Christianity remains the largest religion in the world currently, Islam is likely to become the largest in about 50 years.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Obviously there are sizeable numbers of Hindus, Buddhists and adherents of other religions.



So it makes no sense to talk about fundamentalist Protestant Christianity in some way representing religion as a whole.

How about fundamentalist Protestant Christianity representing Christianity as a whole? A breakdown of numbers of proportions of Protestants compared to other Christians makes clear Protestant Christianity’s minority status.

Catholic (50.1%)
Protestant (36.7%)
Eastern/Oriental Orthodox(11.9%)
Other Christian (1.3%)

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

So Protestant Christians only make up just over a third of Christians worldwide and are not even the largest denomination within Christendom. So it would not make sense to talk about Protestant Christians representing Christianity worldwide.

If we were to breakdown the number of Protestant denominations worldwide it becomes clear there are literally hundreds if not thousands of groups. As a whole they are neither united or cohesive. Of these denominations fundamentalists probably make up a relatively small minority.

So fundamentalist Christians represent neither religion as a whole nor Christendom. The only reason to consider the question as remotely plausible is because of the current American context where a vocal minority has captured a disproportionate amount of attention in the public discourse in regards both religion and politics.

I think that the emphasis on fundamentalist Protestantism in America is because of its influence there. Many fundamentalist groups originate in America and in my experience, having been from a fundamentalist Christian group, even the international fundamentalist community of that same group thinks that their fellow believers from America are ignorant and extreme. The same is with muslims here in my country, where there are certainly fundamentalist ones, but they view the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia as a bunch of nut jobs. But that is my limited viewpoint.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think that the emphasis on fundamentalist Protestantism in America is because of its influence there. Many fundamentalist groups originate in America and in my experience, having been from a fundamentalist Christian group, even the international fundamentalist community of that same group thinks that their fellow believers from America are ignorant and extreme. The same is with muslims here in my country, where there are certainly fundamentalist ones, but they view the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia as a bunch of nut jobs. But that is my limited viewpoint.

They are useful points to keep in mind, especially as we have so many participants from the States on this forum. There is a tendency to view the world through a somewhat America-centric lens. However, Christianity worldwide has little connection to American fundamentalism and in many places we’re quite disturbed by it.

 

[Augustus]

Christianity worldwide has little connection to American fundamentalism and in many places we’re quite disturbed by it.

The money American fundies have though quite often ends up promoting US style fundamentalism in the developing world though...

It's a bit like the Saudis with Islam.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The money American fundies have though quite often ends up promoting US style fundamentalism in the developing world though...

It's a bit like the Saudis with Islam.

I think that it is the culture in the different countries that affects their interpretation of the fundamentalist religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The money American fundies have though quite often ends up promoting US style fundamentalism in the developing world though...

It's a bit like the Saudis with Islam.

Its a useful analogy. There is certainly a rise of fundamentalism in many countries and it can extend to Hinduism and Buddhism too. Its not just an Abrahamic religious phenomenon. On a global scale promoting these newer religions takes coordination and resources. More traditional and moderate approaches to religion are in decline in the West. Its not surprising increasing numbers are abandoning religion completely.

 

[pearl]

Reminds me of Gandhi's response when asked what he thought of "British culture", and his response was that they should try it.

Which reminds me of what Gandhi must have thought of a 'Christianity without Christ' as he warned the Hindu youth amid a missionary offensive that targeted them as they questioned ancient traditions.

 

[Polymath257]

Poly!! Do not let @Sunstone corrupt your mind!

Oh, it was corrupted LONG before I even knew of @Sunstone 's existence.

 

[pearl]

Many other Christian groups also have a very secular view of the Bible in my view, as they update their viewpoint based on modern science, traditions and philosophy, they take critical scholarship into account, think that many stories are just stories and in general are very loose when it comes to their religion.

I think this is true. While all fundamentalists believe sola scriptura not all adherents to sola scriptura are fundamentalists.