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How is it true "Jesus is God"?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When a believer says Jesus is God, what does it mean? Please do not repeat the scriptural evidence that proclaims it. If my salvation is dependent on believing it, I must know what it means. Who is the Jesus who is The God?

I think I want to add that for now, according to my own understanding, the man Yehoshua is god enough for me but I do not know how to understand he is The Father. How can I know he is the son and The Father? No scripture please.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK Why is it in scriptural debates. It's a good question. I think it is because without The Holy Bible noone in their right mind would believe a man is Almighty God.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I think it is because without The Holy Bible noone in their right mind would believe a man is Almighty God.
Various monarchs and emperors were deified, some of them were regarded as gods incarnate, others went through an apotheosis after their death.
It is highly possible that the New Testament was influenced by the Imperial religion of Rome that referred to the emperor as a Son of god and used other idealized epithets, part of the reason was of course to undermine the Roman ideology of Emperor revering and put Jesus in a higher position.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Various monarchs and emperors were deified, some of them were regarded as gods incarnate, others went through an apotheosis after their death.
It is highly possible that the New Testament was influenced by the Imperial religion of Rome that referred to the emperor as a Son of god and used other idealized epithets, part of the reason was of course to undermine the Roman ideology of Emperor revering and put Jesus in a higher position.

Thank you. It is plausible. I want to know from someone who believes now that Jesus is God and that it is true. The truth will set me free. I believe it. According to many people's reasoning I must believe Jesus is God to be free.

I believe God is always God. If Jesus is God, then Jesus must have always been God. According to the trinity doctrine how is that wrong?
 

Raban

Hagian
One example that I have heard goes like this. John Smith is one person. However, He is a father to his children, a son to his parents, and a husband to his spouse. I don't think it CAN be explained, but this is as close as I have ever found. Now equate the Christ, the Father, and the Spirit, as identifiers, to try and allow humans to understand more. So I don't really think that they are divided at all, it is just three different titles given to one being. Now what I see the Christ as, is the transcendent aspect of God that exists in us, shapes us and is wholly beyond us. Jesus became the physical manifestation of this ethereal force (which is just God, just called the Christ for sake of time) and through it we are 'cleansed' of our impurities. I don't think belief in Jesus warrants salvation, nor in belief of the triune God; they exist beyond names, and can be known with different ones, that are 'un-Christian'.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
It's not all that difficult...there is God - the Father; there is God - the Son; and there is God - the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is a separate individual from God the Father. God the Father had to have sent Jesus to earth because God is Omnipresent...He couldn't have come as Jesus. He could not have been "everywhere" at the same time, if this was the case....
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
When a believer says Jesus is God, what does it mean? Please do not repeat the scriptural evidence that proclaims it. If my salvation is dependent on believing it, I must know what it means. Who is the Jesus who is The God?

I think I want to add that for now, according to my own understanding, the man Yehoshua is god enough for me but I do not know how to understand he is The Father. How can I know he is the son and The Father? No scripture please.
Your salvation is not dependent upon your belief. It is dependent upon the faith of Christ and his grace given to us.

Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is the Son. Both are God. God is available to us in a community of three Persons in perfect relationship, just as love is available in relationship.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
When a believer says Jesus is God, what does it mean? Please do not repeat the scriptural evidence that proclaims it. If my salvation is dependent on believing it, I must know what it means. Who is the Jesus who is The God?

I think I want to add that for now, according to my own understanding, the man Yehoshua is god enough for me but I do not know how to understand he is The Father. How can I know he is the son and The Father? No scripture please.


Your faith in the above is a requirement.

Church fathers were dictated how to define the orthodox view of the trinity and Jesus relationship to the father, or be banished.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It's not all that difficult...there is God - the Father; there is God - the Son; and there is God - the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is a separate individual from God the Father. God the Father had to have sent Jesus to earth because God is Omnipresent...He couldn't have come as Jesus. He could not have been "everywhere" at the same time, if this was the case....
Knowing the precise theological implications of many of the most minute wordings of the Trinity, I am going to offer an amendment according to Orthodox Trinitarian theology, as it was codified at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople I.

Jesus is not a "separate individual" from God the Father, but a "distinct Person." To say that He is a "separate individual" is tantamount to denying that the Trinity is One.

Also, even though Jesus is incarnate, it in no way impacts His Omnipresence. One of the Proskomedia prayers says the following:
In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the inexpressible.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Knowing the precise theological implications of many of the most minute wordings of the Trinity, I am going to offer an amendment according to Orthodox Trinitarian theology, as it was codified at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople I.

Jesus is not a "separate individual" from God the Father, but a "distinct Person." To say that He is a "separate individual" is tantamount to denying that the Trinity is One.

Also, even though Jesus is incarnate, it in no way impacts His Omnipresence. One of the Proskomedia prayers says the following:
In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God; in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the inexpressible.

I was taught that when Jesus was in the grave bodily it meant he was dead. God cannot die. Did Jesus die?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your salvation is not dependent upon your belief. It is dependent upon the faith of Christ and his grace given to us.

Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is the Son. Both are God. God is available to us in a community of three Persons in perfect relationship, just as love is available in relationship.

InChrist disagrees with you. You both consider yourself Christian. Is it not so?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
InChrist disagrees with you. You both consider yourself Christian. Is it not so?

There is no single understanding of the relationship between the God the father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The orthodox and catholic versions differ in detail and understanding. There is an even greater gap between the understandings of other churches. The JW's and Unitarians do not see Jesus as God at all. And the Mormons See Jesus as part of a God head.

For most of us, it does not matter that other Christians view these things in their own way. We may not fully understand the nature of God and this relationship. But we accept that a relationship does exist.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We may not fully understand the nature of God and this relationship. But we accept that a relationship does exist.
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

The Father loves the son and The Son loves The Father. Their relationship is love. Does love have an image?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a relationship with The Father. I suspect there are others here who have a relationship with The Father. Knowing God does not make us God. Yehoshua knows The Father better than anyone. I do believe The Heavenly Father sent him. He was a man. Was God a man for awhile and dead for awhile? I think THEY let You believe it because it is so funny.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's My Birthday!
When a believer says Jesus is God, what does it mean? Please do not repeat the scriptural evidence that proclaims it. If my salvation is dependent on believing it, I must know what it means. Who is the Jesus who is The God?

I think I want to add that for now, according to my own understanding, the man Yehoshua is god enough for me but I do not know how to understand he is The Father. How can I know he is the son and The Father? No scripture please.
From my perspective, Jesus Christ is God, but He is definitely not the same individual as His Father, who is also God. Are they they same God or two different Gods? Well, that all depends on what you understand the word "God" to mean. And does believing that they are two Gods constitute polytheism?

I see "God" as a title reserved for the three individuals who make up "the Godhead," as the word is used in the scriptures. Granted, there are a great many dictionaries to choose from, so my statement may not be 100% accurate, but I would say that most of the commonly used dictionaries will give the word "God" as a synonym for "Godhead." This would mean that, at least in certain situations, the words could be used interchangeably. When we use the word Godhead, we are using a word that is known to be a "collective noun" -- a noun that describes an entity composed of more than one individual. Other collectives nouns include "team," "corps," "congregation," and "family." When we use one of these words in a sentence, we use it with a singular verb. In other words, we say, "The family is coming to dinner," and "The team is playing very well." We know, however, by virtue of the fact that these words are collective nouns, that each one is made of several (or at least two) individuals. When we use the word "Godhead," we know the same thing to be true. We are speaking of an entity comprised of three members who are together referred to in the singular form. Since "God" and "Godhead" are synonyms, we can substitute the word "God" for "Godhead" and be referring to three individual beings at once.

So, Jesus Christ is not both the Son and the Father. People will tell you that one individual can be both a father and a son, and that's true. No father, however, can be his own son and no son can be his own father. This is the same whether we're talking about you and your father or Jesus Christ and His Father. They are two distinct individuals who, along with the Holy Ghost, are "one God" (or "one Godhead"). They are each fully divine, so they are each entitled to be called by the same title: God. But because they are absolutely and perfectly united in virtually every other aspect (will, purpose, mind, heart, power, glory, etc.), they are said to be "one." You don't have to believe that they are "one in substance" to accept the fact that Jesus Christ is God. The Bible never says they're "one in substance." It just says they're "one" and I just explained how that's possible.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Shiranui117 - “Jesus is not a "separate individual" from God the Father, but a "distinct Person." To say that He is a "separate individual" is tantamount to denying that the Trinity is One”.


I disagree...the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I was taught that when Jesus was in the grave bodily it meant he was dead. God cannot die. Did Jesus die?
If by "dead" you mean He died in the flesh, His heart rate stopped, His brainwaves stopped, and His soul separated from His body? Yes, He died.

If by "dead" you mean that Jesus ceased to exist, became completely unconscious, and had His mind/soul/consciousness obliterated? No, He did not die.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Shiranui117 - “Jesus is not a "separate individual" from God the Father, but a "distinct Person." To say that He is a "separate individual" is tantamount to denying that the Trinity is One”.


I disagree...the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.
I think you misunderstood what I meant; as an Orthodox Christian, I of course believe in the Trinity. :D Have you looked into the writings of the Fathers or the decrees of the Councils of Nicaea I and Constantinople I, or the intricacies of Trinitarian theology? If you had, then perhaps you would understand exactly the point I was trying to get across, and why the nitpicking with the terminology and the description matters.

Not an attack or a belittlement of your knowledge at all, just trying to gauge how much familiarity you have with the technicalities and intricacies of this issue, and the precise historical explanations and formulations. :)
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
I think you misunderstood what I meant; as an Orthodox Christian, I of course believe in the Trinity. :D Have you looked into the writings of the Fathers or the decrees of the Councils of Nicaea I and Constantinople I, or the intricacies of Trinitarian theology? If you had, then perhaps you would understand exactly the point I was trying to get across, and why the nitpicking with the terminology and the description matters.

Not an attack or a belittlement of your knowledge at all, just trying to gauge how much familiarity you have with the technicalities and intricacies of this issue, and the precise historical explanations and formulations. :)

Oh...I understand the Council of Nicea. I understand it as a gathering similar to the one described in Acts 15:4-22, which condemned the beliefs of Arius and wrote the first version of the now famous creed proclaiming that the Son was "one in being with the Father" by use of the Greek word "homoousius."


I take no offense and honor your belief; however, isn't your Eastern Orthodox Church also called the Orthodox Catholic Church? I have issues with that Council at Nicea...not you....
 
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