How is Jesus serving as High Priest to God if he is God?

[Lain]

If we pray THROUGH Jesus Christ to reach GOD … and Jesus Christ IS GOD… ….?
Hmmm…. I see a problem with that claim!!!

We pray through Jesus Christ to reach the Only True God (and Only God) who is the Father, who is greater than Jesus and the Uncaused Cause of All.

Jesus is not the same as Him (for it is absurd to pray through someone to themselves). Do you see a problem with that claim I just made?

 

[firedragon]

(All that follows is my opinion.)

Co-equal according to the divine essence is not at all incompatible (and frankly has nothing to do with) with the Son assuming a human essence (which is not equal to the divine essence) in addition to His divine essence and mediating between the Father and humanity with it. If you had actually followed the Athanasian Creed instead of misinterpreting what it was saying you'd know this, for it is in the second portion of it which deals with the Incarnation. See the rest of it:

"He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity. It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man. As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother. He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh. He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ. And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God. He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person. As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ. [[He died for our salvation, descended into Hell, and rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into Heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty.]] From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire."

Notice the part bolding in red, this refers to the events of mediation. How is this known? Let's look at two relevant passages describing it:

Hebrews: "But [[Christ has arrived as a high priest of the good things to come.]] Through the greater and more perfect tent not made by hands, that is, not of this creation, and not by the blood of goats and calves, but [[by his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption.]] For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? And [[because of this, he is the mediator of a new covenant,]] in order that, because a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions committed during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

1 Timothy: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, [[who gave himself a ransom for all,]] the testimony at the proper time..."

Now, let's talk about the Athanasian Creed: show me two statements in it that contradict one another, and explain why it is a contradiction. All that is bolded in red is referring to the same events. I have ignored your term "subordination" because you didn't define it.

The fact that you did not use this is why it leads me to believe you did not read it. So again, strictly from the Athanasian Creed: show me two statements that contradict.

(All that is above is my opinion.)

I already said I believe that the effort people put to reconcile the Bible with the Trinity is why you have this dilemma.

I withdraw from this discussion. But thank you very much for your engagement.

 

[Lain]

I already said I believe that the effort people put to reconcile the Bible with the Trinity is why you have this dilemma.

I deny that there is a dilemma, but God bless. I will note that you did not prove your claim so I'll take it that you can not and it was false.

 

[firedragon]

I deny that there is a dilemma, but God bless. I will note that you did not prove your claim so I'll take it that you can not and it was false.

Your prerogative.

 

[pearl]

I already said I believe that the effort people put to reconcile the Bible with the Trinity is why you have this dilemma.

There is no effort to reconcile a trinitarian 'formula' with Scripture. Few places, as in Matthew where the formula for baptism is found, 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit', which apparently reflects the practice of the Christian community of Matthew. When the Church refers to God it is always God the father, never the Son. And in its Liturgy it is always
'through Him, with Him, and Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all honor and glory are yours, almighty Father.

 

[firedragon]

There is no effort to reconcile a trinitarian 'formula' with Scripture. Few places, as in Matthew where the formula for baptism is found, 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit', which apparently reflects the practice of the Christian community of Matthew. When the Church refers to God it is always God the father, never the Son. And in its Liturgy it is always
'through Him, with Him, and Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all honor and glory are yours, almighty Father.

All of that is not relevant to me pearl. I spoke of apologists trying to reconcile the scripture with the trinity doctrine is when people make claims like "Jesus is Gods representative".

All the other theological matters that you mentioned above is not relevant to me. Hope you understand.

 

[Link]

Jesus doesn't compare himself to God in the Gospels, he compares himself to be on par with John the Baptist and Elijah and Moses and talks about "the Prophet" who is to come and has not come yet, which is not him either.

Servants chosen by God are the way to God when they are there on earth or for a set time.

It's actually very clear that he is not compared with the Creator. The exalted ones also are Mohammad (s) and his family (a) in my view, and Jesus (a) holiness and exaltedness is to the degree he receives their light. The tree of life talked about in revelations is Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and in the Torah as well.

He talks about people not recognizing John to be exactly the same as people not recognizing himself.

And he says he is the light of the world so long as he in this world. That is why it emphasized on Elijah become Simon although succeeded him with outward leadership, it was Elijah who is the pole or what Sufis call the Qutb or magnet of our time, who succeeded the station of the holy spirit.

Simon was not chosen by God but he was a disciple of Jesus and they chose him as their head and always followed him and he had that quality and so Jesus build his authority in general leadership on him temporarily but talked about comforter or the praised one however you want to translate it (I believe the latter is the proper translation while the former is mixing a similar word but not the proper word) in a way that shows someone is coming in the future and there will be a period when he is gone.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Father is greater than the Lord Jesus (both as to His humanity for it is created, and in the Divine Person as the Father is the cause/aitia of the Son), this is part of Trinitarian teaching. If you didn't know, now you do.

St. John of Damascus, one of the divinely inspired Church Fathers says:

"But if we say that the Father is the origin of the Son and greater than the Son, we do not suggest any precedence in time or superiority in nature of the Father over the Son (for through His agency He made the ages), or superiority in any other respect save causation. And we mean by this, that the Son is begotten of the Father and not the Father of the Son, and that the Father naturally is the cause of the Son: just as we say in the same way not that fire proceedeth from light, but rather light from fire. So then, whenever we hear it said that the Father is the origin of the Son and greater than the Son, let us understand it to mean in respect of causation."

(All the above is my opinion of course.)

Thank you again and I certainly respect your opinion. My opinion is that the church likes to talk out of both sides of its mouth. One side says father and son are the same material and equal in all ways. The other side says the father is greater because he is the cause of the son. I like to look at the Bible where it says "in the beginning was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God." Later it says the word became flesh and dwelt among men. In my opinion the word was an equal part of God that existed from the beginning and that part of God became flesh as Jesus.

 

[Fool]

A man can build a house but the house is not his child. A man can make a puppet but the puppet is not his child. There is a big difference between maling an object and having a child. Dogs and cats were created by God but they are not his children. Even Adam was make from the dust of the earth. That is not how you get a child so Adam is not God's child. Jesus is the only begotten son. The father and the son. Two persons, one family, one God.

god is not a man

and jesus quoted psalms 82:6. so you're basically negating what jesus said that all are the children of the most high.

 

[Soapy]

We pray through Jesus Christ to reach the Only True God (and Only God) who is the Father, who is greater than Jesus and the Uncaused Cause of All.

Jesus is not the same as Him (for it is absurd to pray through someone to themselves). Do you see a problem with that claim I just made?

I’m not sure what the question is that you are asking because it seems you are agreeing with me about what I said…. And yet not what ‘I said’ but what ‘Scripture says’.

But ‘Yes’, If Jesus is God then there would be no need to pray through Jesus to reach God.

Clearly, the purpose of the prayer through Jesus is that Jesus moderates the prayers of sinful man do only those worthy and venerable reach HIS ears!

How be it that Trinitarians cannot accept that a mediator is for neither party … as scriptures says:

• “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.” (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
• “A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.” (Galatians 3:20)
• “At that time I [Moses] stood between [the YHWH] and [THE NATION OF ISRAEL] to declare to you the word of YHWH, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.” (Deut 5:5)
  • According to trinitarian ideology, Moses should therefore be GOD (YHWH)!!!?

How therefore could Jesus Christ be a mediator between GOD and Man if he himself is one or both of those parties…?

No: For it is like this:

• God is a righteous and sinless ONE [party]
  
• Man is sinful and unrighteous ONE [party]
  
• Jesus Christ is PERFECT Man: not sinful nor unrighteousness but righteous and sinless

Dictionary Definition for ‘Mediator’:

• “a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.

So he is neither sinless God nor is he unholy Man. He is the perfect ‘Scapegoat’ who takes away the sins of unrighteousness man and presents such a msn to God because God abhors sin!

Why, why, why, is it impossible to reach agreement on simple matters with Trinitarians over matters of scriptures??? I know why!!

 

[Lain]

But ‘Yes’, If Jesus is God then there would be no need to pray through Jesus to reach God.

How therefore could Jesus Christ be a mediator between GOD and Man if he himself is one or both of those parties…?

Alright then, Jesus Christ is a mediator because He is neither party. Great. We agree with the Scriptures. St. Paul says:

"And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

So God reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ.

 

[1213]

this then would cancel out hebrews and jesus being made in the image of melchizedek, or patterned/ordered. melchizedek is referred to as the 1st high priest. this is where the mimicking of aaron came in. it was based on lineage, but melchizedek wasn't an israelite

Sorry, I don't see how that would cancel what the Bible tells.

 

[Link]

Just a point often "God" can be translated as "Exalted Ones", and I believe the famous "word was..." is to be translated be as Exalted ones. Also, when Jesus says you will not tempt your ____ it should be your Master the exalted ones, and the singular usage reference to plural is normal, Quran does the same in 5:55.

It's to emphasize the oneness of the exalted ones and they are all God's word and exalted name and his mastership is though them.

 

[Soapy]

Alright then, Jesus Christ is a mediator because He is neither party. Great. We agree with the Scriptures. St. Paul says:

"And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

So God reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ.

Well, yes…. But that is a future prophesy.

We are not yet in any way ‘All’ reconciled to God.

Why else is there a judgement at the end of time BY JESUS CHRIST in whom ‘The Father has granted to judge’?

The reality is that through Jesus Christ we have the RIGHT to be reconciled…. We have the opportunity to be reconciled to God through [the] Christ …

It can be seen even from this forum that there are many whom are so far removed from the truth of ‘The only true God; the Father, and HIS CHRIST, Jesus, whom HE sent’.

And be it attested that ‘Eternal Life’ DEPENDS on this belief.

It is no good saying that one believes in God and in Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS GOD…

That is what scriptures calls, ‘Bringing Heaven down to earth - and - Raising earth up to Heaven!’

For, indeed, Jesus Christ is SINLESS MAN, and to call him ALMIGHTY GOD is certainly raising ‘Man’ (sinless or not) up to Heaven.

And for sure, claiming Jesus is God, even as ‘also man’, is to bring GOD down to earth!!!

Scriptures is clear:

• ‘The MAN Jesus Christ’

Even Jesus Christ himself spoke:

• “What if you see the Son of man coming with the clouds….”

Because, indeed, Jesus Christ never ever claimed to be God. In fact he attributed EVERYTHING he did and said, TO THE FATHER.

Trinitarians try to disputable claim that ‘It is because he is God that he could do the things that God could do!!’

Not so: It is because GOD GRANTED him POWER to do the things he did… GRANTED… this means ‘Loaned’. Trinitarians do not quote the verse where Jesus GIVES BACK the power that God granted him… why? … because it would destroy their fatally flawed argument in that:

• If Jesus was granted powers of God… What was he BEFORE he was granted these powers.
• If Jesus GAVE BACK the powers God granted him, what is he after he hands back the power?

 

[Soapy]

Just a point often "God" can be translated as "Exalted Ones", and I believe the famous "word was..." is to be translated be as Exalted ones. Also, when Jesus says you will not tempt your ____ it should be your Master the exalted ones, and the singular usage reference to plural is normal, Quran does the same in 5:55.

It's to emphasize the oneness of the exalted ones and they are all God's word and exalted name and his mastership is though them.

Unfortunately you are throwing your pearls of wisdom to the ignorant trinitarian factions of Christian belief.

Nevertheless, ‘God’ is both a TITLE and a ADJECTIVE (and a Superlative Adjective, at that!)

Unfortunately, the ignorance of language and linguistics is so great in this and other forums that no sense is made from understanding what a Title is and what an adjective is and even what superlative means.

• ‘The word of [the] God was MIGHTY’
• ‘The word of [The God] was [God]

 

[Link]

Unfortunately you are throwing your pearls of wisdom to the ignorant trinitarian factions of Christian belief.

Nevertheless, ‘God’ is both a TITLE and a ADJECTIVE (and a Superlative Adjective, at that!)

Unfortunately, the ignorance of language and linguistics is so great in this and other forums that no sense is made from understanding what a Title is and what an adjective is and even what superlative means.

• ‘The word of [the] God was MIGHTY’
• ‘The word of [The God] was [God]

The Hebrew Elohim for example can be translated as God or exalted ones or gods. I believe exalted ones is the proper translation in many places where it doesn't occur in translations.

I'm not ignorant, I've done my research about that verse, although the word is singular with reference to the "the word", like I explained, Quran does the same in 5:55 with singular Wali for plural, and other places with Messengers with singular reference to them, to show they are one.

 

[Soapy]

There is no effort to reconcile a trinitarian 'formula' with Scripture. Few places, as in Matthew where the formula for baptism is found, 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit', which apparently reflects the practice of the Christian community of Matthew. When the Church refers to God it is always God the father, never the Son. And in its Liturgy it is always
'through Him, with Him, and Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all honor and glory are yours, almighty Father.

Exactly what the problem is with the trinity formula… because nowhere in the SCRIPTURES does anyone baptise in the name of the Father, and of the sin, and if the Holy Spirit.

There is only: ‘In the name of Jesus [Christ]’.

THAT is a dilemma…!

Did the apostles disobey what Trinitarians says Jesus told them to do, then?

What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

What is the name of the Father?

What is the name of the Son?

 

[Soapy]

The Hebrew Elohim for example can be translated as God or exalted ones or gods. I believe exalted ones is the proper translation in many places where it doesn't occur in translations.

I'm not ignorant, I've done my research about that verse, although the word is singular with reference to the "the word", like I explained, Quran does the same in 5:55 with singular Wali for plural, and other places with Messengers with singular reference to them, to show they are one.

I don’t think anyone (certainly not me) called you ignorant…!

In fact, I says you were right!!

However, we are not discussing the Muslim God nor Muslim scriptures even if the Muslim God IS the same Christian/Jewish God.

No one can discuss matters if scriptural beliefs to reach an accord if the philosophies are not the same.

Even the Jews, who’s God is the same as the true Christian God, the God of Jesus, disagree because Jews (orthodox) still do not believe that the Christ has come!

AND, having virtually no knowledge of Muslim ideology or theology, how can I agree or disagree with the greater and minute aspects of your God?

Agree on Elohim… it is like ‘Fish’ and ‘Sheep’… the plural is the same as the singular…

Please note that it is TRINITARIANS (Three persons as the one Elohim God) who are the antagonists - I believe in ‘One God: The Father’.

 

[Link]

I don’t think anyone (certainly not me) called you ignorant…!

In fact, I says you were right!!

However, we are not discussing the Muslim God nor Muslim scriptures even if the Muslim God IS the same Christian/Jewish God.

No one can discuss matters if scriptural beliefs to reach an accord if the philosophies are not the same.

Even the Jews, who’s God is the same as the true Christian God, the God of Jesus, disagree because Jews (orthodox) still do not believe that the Christ has come!

AND, having virtually no knowledge of Muslim ideology or theology, how can I agree or disagree with the greater and minute aspects of your God?

Agree on Elohim… it is like ‘Fish’ and ‘Sheep’… the plural is the same as the singular…

Please note that it is TRINITARIANS (Three persons as the one Elohim God) who are the antagonists - I believe in ‘One God: The Father’.

Brother, I recommend connecting to Moses (a), Jesus (a), Elijah (a) or any of the past Guides you believe, ask them directly to guide you regarding Quran and Ahlulbayt (a). They may appear to you in a vision or dream or real life, God knows best what you can handle.

God took a pledge that every Prophet will help the final Messenger and guide people to him.

I believe the spiritual kingdom of light we all can access through our hearts and Prophets (a) of the past are ready to assist their lovers and followers to follow the newest and last of them.

I suggest doing this, it's better then studying translations of Quran which are horribly translated. Spiritual connect and see what happens.

May God give all lovers of him and believers of his oneness guidance and provide them with refuge from Satan and give them weapons against the dark magic and forces of Satan.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

god is not a man

and jesus quoted psalms 82:6. so you're basically negating what jesus said that all are the children of the most high.

Did you read the whole verse of Psalms 82:6 ? I have said, Ye are gods;And all of you are children of the most high. Did you see the part about ye are gods? So this must mean that every person is a god. So do you believe every person is a god? Maybe it is not that simple.