How is morality defined? What is right and wrong?

[Curious George]

That depends on what you mean by 'right' and 'wrong',
There is nothing that is objectively right or wrong in this universe.
Nature simply works in accordance with the laws of physics, which dictate the laws of chemistry, which dictates the laws of biology, and so on.

But thought is also a biological process. Thus, according to your "so-on" argument, thought is then by consequence dictated by the laws of physics and as point-of-view is thought, then point of view is then dictated by consequence the laws of physics. Thus, either the laws of physics are subjective or point of view is objective.

 

[gseeker]

If there are any objective moral absolutes there is no agreement about what they are. I follow the so called Golden Rule; Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself; and don't treat others in a way you would not like to be treated.

Golden rule? I thought one of they 9 statements of Satanism is to treat others as they deserve to be treated. All 9 statements make complete and total sense to me. Golden rule be damned. Still, that rule does tend to make life flow more smoothly.

 

[jarofthoughts]

But thought is also a biological process. Thus, according to your "so-on" argument, thought is then by consequence dictated by the laws of physics and as point-of-view is thought, then point of view is then dictated by consequence the laws of physics. Thus, either the laws of physics are subjective or point of view is objective.

Now you are fast approaching determinism territory, and while I consider myself at least partially a determinist, that does have other consequences if it is to be considered in this context.
The age-old questions in this regard would be whether it makes sense to punish criminals if their behavior was pre-determined, and similar, if indeed, there is no such thing as free will.
I've written more extensively on my thoughts about free will here; Random thoughts about Science and the World - Do we have free will? if you are interested.

However, there is also the concept of emergence and emergent behavior, of which human consciousness is usually considered to an example (Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
If we are to find that while in principle our minds work in a deterministic way, but that in practice it is no way to figure out that determinism to our satisfaction, does it then make sense to treat people and human behavior as if it was deterministic?
Also, since the resulting emergent morality would be connected to a subject, i.e. a human, wouldn't that make that person's morality subjective, even if the laws of physics led to that emergent behavior?

I'm not avoiding your argument here, but I do think there are more factors that need to be taken into consideration.

 

[gseeker]

There are different versions of either of these. However, if we were to look at one concept of moral universalism we could take concepts such as pain and comfort. Then we could suggest that morally right or wrong is objectively based on a scale of one's actions. Thus, if one had two choices of which both caused pain, the right choice is that which minimizes the pain. The limit to one's ability to choose right and wrong under this philosophy are only the limits to one's ability to see the ramifications of their actions.

Moral absolutism would suggest a morality in which the ends never justified the means leaving certain actions completely taboo. One could argue that this morality stems from a biological level. Such as the drive to protect our children. To go against this drive and kill our children under moral absolutism would always be wrong. How one derives there morals within moral absolutism varies from different people, yet the focus in moral absolutism is to classify certain acts as unequivocally wrong.

There are no absolutes in life.

I think the head of the satanist church said it best when it came to a concept of pain being immoral. You have a a person who enjoys pain and a sadist. The person says to the sadist hurt me and the sadist says no. Out of the two who's moral value was correct? Again that proves that you can't define moral values by pain vs pleasure.

 

[McBell]

If there are any objective moral absolutes there is no agreement about what they are. I follow the so called Golden Rule; Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself; and don't treat others in a way you would not like to be treated.

the golden rule is fine as far it goes.

I prefer the Platinum Rule:

Treat others as they would like to be treated.
​

 

[chinu]

So I just had an argument online where someone said God defines morality. Obviously I had to argue that point but how do you define right and wrong, how is the conscious developed, and what is morality exactly?Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

For example.. suger is kept in the bowl and after some time chillies are kept in that same bowl, But.. nothing is sweet or sour for that bowl, Similarly.. nothing is right or wrong for God

But.. when suger or chillies are in the mouth, they are sweet and sour because now they are in the mouth of human insted of bowl, and its sweet and sour, Similarly right and wrong are for we humans, not for god.

No, God never defines right or wrong without humans, But there's right or wrong because of humans.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I prefer the Platinum Rule:

Treat others as they would like to be treated.
​

Long term or short term?
Because, as a teacher I am well aware that what people want and what people need are not necessarily the same...
For instance, it would be highly irresponsible for me to let my pupils lax off all the time instead of studying.
And while they might thank me for pushing them later, and many have, right there and then that might not be what they wanted.

 

[Pegg]

Morality is a thing of the past, a left over from the days ruled mainly by strict religious ideas. I think morality has been replaced by the law.

people break laws, but moral people dont

 

[Nerthus]

So I just had an argument online where someone said God defines morality. Obviously I had to argue that point but how do you define right and wrong, how is the conscious developed, and what is morality exactly?Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

For someone who has faith, then God does define morality. I do have faith, although cannot say, hand on heart, that my definitions of right and wrong, come wholly from God.

I tend to use my own judgements, the majority view, law, history.

I don't think you can have just one definition. Nothing fits just one definition, there needs to be some degree of flexibility.

 

[confused453]

people break laws, but moral people dont

until they get drunk...

 

[waitasec]

So I just had an argument online where someone said God defines morality. Obviously I had to argue that point but how do you define right and wrong, how is the conscious developed, and what is morality exactly?Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

morality is a guideline to our behavior
right and wrong, or morality, are subjective terms
our society dictates what is moral or immoral.

one example i used quite often to support my assertion is this
in our society it is immoral to circumcise a female, in other societies it is perfectly acceptable

 

[waitasec]

people break laws, but moral people dont

i disagee...
sometimes breaking the law is a very moral thing to do...looking in from the outside
the story of anne frank comes to mind

 

[waitasec]

the golden rule is fine as far it goes.

I prefer the Platinum Rule:

Treat others as they would like to be treated.
​

how would one know how others would like to be treated...would the criteria be based on how you would like to be treated?

but i prefer your platinum version as it does take the focus off of oneself when dealing with others

 

[Cassiopia]

Golden rule? I thought one of they 9 statements of Satanism is to treat others as they deserve to be treated. All 9 statements make complete and total sense to me. Golden rule be damned. Still, that rule does tend to make life flow more smoothly.

I think you mean the 4th Satanic Statement, Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
I am not a slave to Anton LaVey's philosophy, but perhaps I do tend to follow that statement more than the Golden Rule in practice. However, as you seemed to indicate, the Golden Rule does tend to make life flow more smoothly.

the golden rule is fine as far it goes.

I prefer the Platinum Rule:

Treat others as they would like to be treated.
​

Well, you'd have to know how they wanted to be treated and sometimes that would not be what they really need or deserve, or what is best for them.
So I agree with jarofthoughts...

Long term or short term?
Because, as a teacher I am well aware that what people want and what people need are not necessarily the same...
For instance, it would be highly irresponsible for me to let my pupils lax off all the time instead of studying.
And while they might thank me for pushing them later, and many have, right there and then that might not be what they wanted.

people break laws, but moral people dont

That's just silly. Sometimes the most moral thing you can do is break a law. Otherwise nobody would ever have helped the Jews during the Holocaust or any other group who were denied basic rights by the law of their time.

 

[Father Heathen]

So I just had an argument online where someone said God defines morality. Obviously I had to argue that point but how do you define right and wrong, how is the conscious developed, and what is morality exactly?Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

Morality is the manner in which one conducts oneself when interacting with others. It's also justice and balance. The best morality is guided by reason and compassion rather than by arbitrary social norms and superstitions. Dignity and integrity, honor and honesty, etc. all ties into the depth and worth of the self.

 

[waitasec]

Morality is the manner in which one conducts oneself when interaction with others. It's also justice and balance. The best morality is guided by reason and compassion rather than by arbitrary social norms and superstitions. Dignity and integrity, honor and honesty, etc. all ties into the depth and worth of the self.

this...

 

[TheKnight]

So I just had an argument online where someone said God defines morality. Obviously I had to argue that point but how do you define right and wrong, how is the conscious developed, and what is morality exactly?Is there such a thing as right and wrong?

It could very well be that God defines morality,for them. In actuality, I don't think we can say that morality even exists as some concrete external objectivity that can guide everyone if only they knew it. The reason is because the "moral" thing to do isn't static. It changes with the circumstances.

What ultimately matters is that a person decides how he is going to live life and that he sticks with it consistently. I think it is more important for people to have an idea of what they're about and to live by it than to try determine what some grand higher moral purpose is.

people break laws, but moral people dont

Your logic is saying that laws==morality, and I don't think anyone here would agree.

 

[McBell]

people break laws, but moral people dont

This is demonstrably nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[McBell]

how would one know how others would like to be treated...would the criteria be based on how you would like to be treated?

Here is a really novel idea...
talk to them...

but i prefer your platinum version as it does take the focus off of oneself when dealing with others

Not necessarily

 

[McBell]

Long term or short term?
Because, as a teacher I am well aware that what people want and what people need are not necessarily the same...
For instance, it would be highly irresponsible for me to let my pupils lax off all the time instead of studying.
And while they might thank me for pushing them later, and many have, right there and then that might not be what they wanted.

Nice straw man.

I said nothing at all about giving others what they want.
I said treated as they want to be treated.