How long did it take for intelligence to exist in the universe?

[Enai de a lukal]

READ: " A consciousness of 'life' in which the mind is not trying to grasp or define what it knows." No. Not thinking. Seeing.

Ok, so perception then? Are you being intentionally evasive, or only by accident?

And yes, I have meditated. But this type of mental activity would still be broadly construed as thought.

 

[godnotgod]

Ok, so perception then? Are you being intentionally evasive, or only by accident?

And yes, I have meditated. But this type of mental activity would still be broadly construed as thought.

Then you have not stopped thought. Meditation is not 'mental activity'. There is no activity going on in meditation when it is successful. You are just watching the stream of thoughts flow by from a stillpoint called 'The Observer', or 'The Fourth Room'. You're not attaching to those thoughts as 'my thoughts'. They're simply thoughts. In deeper states of meditation, thoughts will completely stop.

Again, there is no object of perception in pure consciousness. Perception usually implies perception of something. There is only pure awareness, with no particular object in mind. There is not even a concept of self or mind in this state. Consciousness just 'is', in heightened awareness. Everything follows from that. In the larger picture, Pure Consciousness, is what is always present, whether a universe is being manifested or not, and the manifested universe comes out of Pure Consciousness. Science has it the other way around, where consciousness is the product of material evolution, referred to as 'upward causation'. The former is universal and non-local, while the latter is local and temporal.

 

[godnotgod]

None of this is really relevant. Infering that a whole, of which something is a part, has the properties that its part has is a fallacy of composition, because it is not a logically valid inference; there are plenty of instances, involving people, things, or anything else you care to pick (thus the people vs. "things" bit is a pseudo-distinction and a red herring) , where parts have properties which the whole does not have (I have 10 fingers, and I'm part of a family- does it follow that my family has 10 fingers? Of course not!)

Except for the fact that people are not parts of a greater whole; they are the whole itself, even though most people are not aware of this. IOW, each human being is a microcosm of the entire universe.


"You are not just a drop in the ocean, you are the mighty ocean itself."
Rumi

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Except for the fact that people are not parts of a greater whole; they are the whole itself, even though most people are not aware of this. IOW, each human being is a microcosm of the entire universe.

That's great. It is still not the case that what is true of humans is true of the universe generally; this remains an invalid inference (i.e. fallacy of composition), since being a microcosm of the universe and being the universe are two COMPLETELY different things.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Then you have not stopped thought.

This is called a "no true scotsman" fallacy; i.e. when presented with a counter-example, you claim it is not a "true" or "genuine" instance, when, at least prima facie in this case, it is.

Meditation is not 'mental activity'.

Of course it is; it certainly isn't a physical activity. The point is that it doesn't consist in jumping rope or snapping your fingers, but is something you do with your mind.

There is no activity going on in meditation when it is successful. You are just watching the stream of thoughts flow by from a stillpoint called 'The Observer', or 'The Fourth Room'. You're not attaching to those thoughts as 'my thoughts'. They're simply thoughts. In deeper states of meditation, thoughts will completely stop.

And we could still refer to this as thought, broadly construed.

Again, there is no object of perception in pure consciousness. Perception usually implies perception of something. There is only pure awareness, with no particular object in mind. There is not even a concept of self or mind in this state. Consciousness just 'is', in heightened awareness.

That's cool. Its still a mental activity, and it still takes place in space and time, even if the person in this particular state of mind is not aware of either.

In the larger picture, Pure Consciousness, is what is always present

Absolutely no reason to think this is the case.

the manifested universe comes out of Pure Consciousness

Absolutely no reason to think this is the case either. Just becomes something sounds kind of profound and cool doesn't mean its true.

Science has it the other way around, where consciousness is the product of material evolution

Because this is what the evidence suggests actually is the case. All your idea has going for it is baseless speculation. Evidence vs. baseless speculation... Hmm, not a very tough decision, really.

 

[godnotgod]

This is called a "no true scotsman" fallacy; i.e. when presented with a counter-example, you claim it is not a "true" or "genuine" instance, when, at least prima facie in this case, it is.

Excuse me. Stopping thought is stopping thought. You know it when it happens via your direct experience, precisely as when you notice that a faucet has stopped dripping. It is a completely verifiable claim. Period.

Of course it is; it certainly isn't a physical activity. The point is that it doesn't consist in jumping rope or snapping your fingers, but is something you do with your mind.

No, it is not. 'Mind' is a conceptual thought. In Pure Consciousness, there is no concept, no thought, and therefore, no mind. Do you think the mind to be real?

And we could still refer to this as thought, broadly construed.

In the state of The Observer, you are not attached to the stream of thoughts, or they cease entirely. They're not 'your' thoughts, so there is no mental activity, simply because there is no agent of thought called 'mind'; there is no thinker of thoughts. But that's besides the point, which is that, behind all thought lies pure consciousness. You will know this to be certain once the stream of thoughts ceases. Then there is only seeing via consciousness. You don't die, and you are not comatose. You are fully awake.

That's cool. Its still a mental activity, and it still takes place in space and time, even if the person in this particular state of mind is not aware of either.

The physical body can be said to be in Space and Time, sort of*, but once again, show me the loci of consciousness and how you can measure it in Time. You cannot. The consciousness you are experiencing is not YOUR consciousness. That is a delusion of the mind. You can see this clearly during meditative observation of the mind. You can see it actually self-create itself. Once the self, the "I", and the mind are stripped away, all that is left is what is real, and that is non-local consciousness, which is outside of Time and Space. It's like an ocean wave, were it self-aware, to suddenly realize that the water it's form is composed of does not belong to the wave, but to the greater ocean it emerges from, and returns to. The wave is none other than the great and boundless ocean itself (just as you are none other than the universe itself). At no time has the wave ever become separated from the sea itself. It may think it is an individual wave, with its own composition, but it would be deluded in thinking so.

Absolutely no reason to think this is the case.

Again, without illusory concepts of "I", self, Time, Space, Causation, and mind in the way, all that is left is pure non-local consciousness. It's not something you think is the case; it's something you see the truth of. Locality of consciousness simply does'nt exist.

Absolutely no reason to think this is the case either. Just becomes something sounds kind of profound and cool doesn't mean its true.

Excuse me. I'm not saying it to impress anyone here. When we take a closer look scientifically at what we call the 'material' world, we find there's not much 'material' there at all; like over 99% is empty space. The 'material' world behaves more like an illusion rather than reality. It is almost empty, has no abiding substance, appears as solid, and changes all the time. It only APPEARS as real to the ordinary conditioned mind, when, in fact, it is an illusion. We all know that what projects an illusion is what is actually real. So what is real is what is BEHIND the material world, which is Pure Consciousness, the field against which the material world is seen.

Because this is what the evidence suggests actually is the case. All your idea has going for it is baseless speculation. Evidence vs. baseless speculation... Hmm, not a very tough decision, really.

Yes, of course, by all means, let's take a look at the 'evidence'. Well, as I just pointed out, the 'evidence' shows us clearly, just as Zen does, for example, that what we only thought was the case, is not actually the case. Isn't that so? And, that is so on both the micro and the macro scales. Reason has reached ineluctable limits. We need another method of examination to go to a deeper level of Reality, and that level is beyond the so-called 'material' world, which science cannot accomplish because it deals ONLY with what it can detect via of perception or instruments of perception.

*The 'physical body' is actually not a thing, but an event, just as a wave is not a thing, but an action.

Don't take MY word for it. Here are REAL scientists verifying what I've stated:


“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind.”

― Max Planck


"What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

― Albert Einstein.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

What is intelligence?

 

[godnotgod]

The 'materialist' paradigm is fast becoming as extinct as the old image of God the Father, floating in the ethosphere in a white sheet and long, flowing white beard, 'The Gaseous Vertebrate' to which philosopher Haegel once jokingly referred.:biglaugh:

 

[godnotgod]

What is intelligence?

The understanding of the true nature of things via the piercing of the supremely intelligent and convincing projection of the facade which makes the world actually seem real.

 

[godnotgod]

I think it is outrageous and preposterous for any man to entertain the ridiculous egoically self-centered notion that he is in possession of consciousness while denying it to the universe from which he sprang, and which nurtures him at every moment of his life, from birth to death; nay, from before birth and well beyond his death. To do so in all seriousness is to virtually deny one's authentic Self, while propping up a complete fraud in its place.:slap:

 

[godnotgod]

That's great. It is still not the case that what is true of humans is true of the universe generally; this remains an invalid inference (i.e. fallacy of composition), since being a microcosm of the universe and being the universe are two COMPLETELY different things.

No. An ocean wave is also the ocean itself. Just as an ocean wave is not actually a 'thing' perse, so also a human being is also not a thing; both are actions. Both are something the universe is doing at any particular moment. You may not like that idea. You only suffer the delusion that there is a separate self that acts upon the world. There is no such agent of the action. There is only the action itself, and it belongs to the universe.

Both wave and ocean are made of the same substance: water. In the same manner, both human and universe are also composed of the same consciousness. The only thing that is different is the illusion of forms, ie; that the human form is an entity separate from the universe. All forms are illusions. The only thing that is real is consciousness that permeates all form. That is why it can be called 'universal'. The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere, even though no two wave(forms) are ever exactly alike. Campeche?

 

[idav]

Excuse me. Stopping thought is stopping thought. You know it when it happens via your direct experience, precisely as when you notice that a faucet has stopped dripping. It is a completely verifiable claim. Period.



No, it is not. 'Mind' is a conceptual thought. In Pure Consciousness, there is no concept, no thought, and therefore, no mind. Do you think the mind to be real?



In the state of The Observer, you are not attached to the stream of thoughts, or they cease entirely. They're not 'your' thoughts, so there is no mental activity, simply because there is no agent of thought called 'mind'; there is no thinker of thoughts. But that's besides the point, which is that, behind all thought lies pure consciousness. You will know this to be certain once the stream of thoughts ceases. Then there is only seeing via consciousness. You don't die, and you are not comatose. You are fully awake.



The physical body can be said to be in Space and Time, sort of*, but once again, show me the loci of consciousness and how you can measure it in Time. You cannot. The consciousness you are experiencing is not YOUR consciousness. That is a delusion of the mind. You can see this clearly during meditative observation of the mind. You can see it actually self-create itself. Once the self, the "I", and the mind are stripped away, all that is left is what is real, and that is non-local consciousness, which is outside of Time and Space. It's like an ocean wave, were it self-aware, to suddenly realize that the water it's form is composed of does not belong to the wave, but to the greater ocean it emerges from, and returns to. The wave is none other than the great and boundless ocean itself (just as you are none other than the universe itself). At no time has the wave ever become separated from the sea itself. It may think it is an individual wave, with its own composition, but it would be deluded in thinking so.



Again, without illusory concepts of "I", self, Time, Space, Causation, and mind in the way, all that is left is pure non-local consciousness. It's not something you think is the case; it's something you see the truth of. Locality of consciousness simply does'nt exist.



Excuse me. I'm not saying it to impress anyone here. When we take a closer look scientifically at what we call the 'material' world, we find there's not much 'material' there at all; like over 99% is empty space. The 'material' world behaves more like an illusion rather than reality. It is almost empty, has no abiding substance, appears as solid, and changes all the time. It only APPEARS as real to the ordinary conditioned mind, when, in fact, it is an illusion. We all know that what projects an illusion is what is actually real. So what is real is what is BEHIND the material world, which is Pure Consciousness, the field against which the material world is seen.



Yes, of course, by all means, let's take a look at the 'evidence'. Well, as I just pointed out, the 'evidence' shows us clearly, just as Zen does, for example, that what we only thought was the case, is not actually the case. Isn't that so? And, that is so on both the micro and the macro scales. Reason has reached ineluctable limits. We need another method of examination to go to a deeper level of Reality, and that level is beyond the so-called 'material' world, which science cannot accomplish because it deals ONLY with what it can detect via of perception or instruments of perception.

*The 'physical body' is actually not a thing, but an event, just as a wave is not a thing, but an action.

Don't take MY word for it. Here are REAL scientists verifying what I've stated:


“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind.”

― Max Planck


"What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”

― Albert Einstein.

Quantum levels we look like data. If the universe is a supercomputer reading off some core then it counts as intelligent.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I think it is outrageous and preposterous for any man to entertain the ridiculous egoically self-centered notion that he is in possession of consciousness while denying it to the universe from which he sprang, and which nurtures him at every moment of his life, from birth to death; nay, from before birth and well beyond his death. To do so in all seriousness is to virtually deny one's authentic Self, while propping up a complete fraud in its place.:slap:

We hold a certain form of consciousness. Animals have consciousness. Some parrots actually "name" their children. Crows can use tools to get at food, animals even dream, studies seem to indicate that hunans are not even the most prolific dreamers...so the universe might not have consciousness but it doesn't seem limited to just man

 

[godnotgod]

We hold a certain form of consciousness. Animals have consciousness. Some parrots actually "name" their children. Crows can use tools to get at food, animals even dream, studies seem to indicate that hunans are not even the most prolific dreamers...so the universe might not have consciousness but it doesn't seem limited to just man

Humans, parrots, crows, stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. are all being played as such by the One Universal Consciousness, all at once.

It's an incredible performance; just remember that it's all just A Big Act, all going on within the dream that is life. When the Universal Consciousness awakens, this dream-world will all vanish, and the Awakened Self will return to Pure Radiance.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Humans, parrots, crows, stars, galaxies, black holes, etc. are all being played as such by the One Universal Consciousness, all at once.

It's an incredible performance; just remember that it's all just A Big Act, all going on within the dream that is life. When the Universal Consciousness awakens, this dream-world will all vanish, and the Awakened Self will return to Pure Radiance.

You know that just because you are made up of parts of the universe it doesn't mean you are the universe. You're a part of it made up of it and that is still equally important. We also see that when parts interact they can create new things that were not there before. The universe doesn't need to have a consciousness but the interactions of the things that are part of the universe can.

 

[Sculelos]

Intelligence in the universe existed the Exact Moment the Universe existed.

 

[YmirGF]

Is intelligence pre-universe, emergent or was the universe just born intelligent? What does the evidence suggest?

There is no way to tell so any answer is merely spinning ones wheels.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

No, it is not. 'Mind' is a conceptual thought. In Pure Consciousness, there is no concept, no thought, and therefore, no mind. Do you think the mind to be real?

"Mind" is a concept, but it also refers to the capacity which is engaged while you are meditating; as I said, it is not a physical activity, but something you do with your mind or brain.

In the state of The Observer, you are not attached to the stream of thoughts

Right, and as I said, you're obviously thinking of a more narrow definition of 'thought', i.e. as something with propositional content. I am using it more broadly to denote any mental activity whatsoever, whether propositional or not.

so there is no mental activity

So one is temporarily brain-dead? In other words, if we performed neuroimaging on someone in such a state, they would not register as having any brain functioning for that period of time? I don't think so.

The physical body can be said to be in Space and Time, sort of*

Sort of? Lol...

but once again, show me the loci of consciousness and how you can measure it in Time. You cannot.

Sure I can. I'm going to think about the upcoming NFL season, and then tell you when I'm done, and I want you to time how long it takes.

Again, without illusory concepts of "I", self, Time, Space, Causation, and mind in the way, all that is left is pure non-local consciousness. It's not something you think is the case; it's something you see the truth of. Locality of consciousness simply does'nt exist.

What is the case, and what is true are the same thing ("what is the case" is simply a different way of saying "what is true", "what the fact of the matter is", etc.).

And that time and space are illusory in the same sense that the metaphysical subject is illusory is, prima facie, simply false.

The 'material' world behaves more like an illusion rather than reality.

What does that even mean? Do you even know?

It only APPEARS as real to the ordinary conditioned mind, when, in fact, it is an illusion.

Only if we're using the word "real" in a highly peculiar way.

We all know that what projects an illusion is what is actually real. So what is real is what is BEHIND the material world, which is Pure Consciousness, the field against which the material world is seen.

This is non-sequitur; that the material world is in some sense "not real" has not been established and is far from self-evident, that "what projects an illusion is what is actually real" does not seem necessarily true and is ambiguous anyways, and that "pure consciousness" is "behind the material world" is also neither self-evident nor has been established.

Yes, of course, by all means, let's take a look at the 'evidence'. Well, as I just pointed out, the 'evidence' shows us clearly, just as Zen does, for example, that what we only thought was the case, is not actually the case. Isn't that so?

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific, because I don't know what you have in mind by this.

Reason has reached ineluctable limits.

I'd say you're calling the game awfully prematurely here.

We need another method of examination to go to a deeper level of Reality and that level is beyond the so-called 'material' world

Whatever that means...

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind.”

― Max Planck

All this quote does is demonstrate that even the most brilliant minds are nevertheless prone to the most basic fallacies of reasoning.

 

[godnotgod]

You know that just because you are made up of parts of the universe it doesn't mean you are the universe. You're a part of it made up of it and that is still equally important. We also see that when parts interact they can create new things that were not there before. The universe doesn't need to have a consciousness but the interactions of the things that are part of the universe can.

There are no 'parts' to an illusion. Show me where anything in the universe leaves off and another begins. Everything is interconnected and interdependent. Everything is One, and because it is all a Grand Illusion, it is Nothing. Everything comes out of Nothing. And it is this very powerful Nothing that is Supremely Intelligent.

There is no matter as such, so there can be no such thing as 'parts'. The only parts that exist are those you maintain as concepts in your own mind.

The universe neither needs nor not-needs anything. Remember, it is Everything and Absolute. There is no 'other' to the Uni-verse. It is complete unto Itself, and YOU are IT. You won't see this as long as you are thinking about it, because the discriminating mind divides Reality into what it thinks are separate 'parts'. The moment you do that, you are complicating things beyond what Reality actually is.

"The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivikenanda

 

[godnotgod]

I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific, because I don't know what you have in mind by this.

Quantum Mechanics and the Holographic Universe, for examples. Now Black Holes are rendering mathematics nonsensical. As I said, Reason has reached ineluctible limits, ala Kant. Trying to create concepts about the nature of Reality and then superimpose them over Reality only creates Paradox. There is no Paradox. The problem is that Reason approaches the phenomenal world with the assumption that it is real, when it is an illusion. It assumes that Time, Space, and Causation are real, when they are conceptual overlays.