How Many Athiest if any Have "Moments of Doubt"

[Autodidact]

So GadFly, what you were saying is that when you were an atheist it led you to be emotionally unstable? You're not accusing other atheists of being emotionally unstable? Maybe you should think about your phrasing. So, was it your emotional instability that led you to convert to Christianity?

 

[GadFly]

No, it's your arrogance.

In all honesty, you don't come off as a person with faith in God, but as a person with doubts so grave and disturbing you would rather exaggerate your certainty and belittle others who are at peace with mystery, rather than examine your own fearful soul.

I'm just saying that's how you come off. I could be wrong. I'm comfortable with that.

You are wrong Alceste. If you have the courage to speak against me in judgment, have enough courage to check out the threads to which I respond. Observe the accusations that I am forced to defend against. Two ladies and one gentleman on this very thread have viciously attack me. All I did was present the written evidence of what they said. Now when confronted with the truth these melted away as if I had engaged them and you bought it foot, line, and sinker. If I were to apologize to those you think I have offended, what would I say? I am sorry you called me arrogant. I am sorry you twisted my words that made me look like I was attacking another's emotional stability. Forgive me for not humbling before your twisted sense of reality.

What kind of logical person are you that you can not make better judgments than you have? I am a Christian but that does not mean I allow evil to run over me as if my opinion is flawed from the get go and because I do not act this way, I am falsely judged by you. What about your manners and sense of justice? Why are you not outraged at what these people have said to me? What they say to me is 10 times as gross as my sarcasm. If you have no evidence to judge me, then I question your ethics and your response. It neither meets the criteria of Christian ethics or the criteria of humanistic ethics of the atheist. Where is your evidence and facts?
GadFly bites again.

 

[Autodidact]

You are wrong Alceste. If you have the courage to speak against me in judgment, have enough courage to check out the threads to which I respond. Observe the accusations that I am forced to defend against. Two ladies and one gentleman on this very thread have viciously attack me. All I did was present the written evidence of what they said. Now when confronted with the truth these melted away as if I had engaged them and you bought it foot, line, and sinker. If I were to apologize to those you think I have offended, what would I say? I am sorry you called me arrogant. I am sorry you twisted my words that made me look like I was attacking another's emotional stability. Forgive me for not humbling before your twisted sense of reality.

What kind of logical person are you that you can not make better judgments than you have? I am a Christian but that does not mean I allow evil to run over me as if my opinion is flawed from the get go and because I do not act this way, I am falsely judged by you. What about your manners and sense of justice? Why are you not outraged at what these people have said to me? What they say to me is 10 times as gross as my sarcasm. If you have no evidence to judge me, then I question your ethics and your response. It neither meets the criteria of Christian ethics or the criteria of humanistic ethics of the atheist. Where is your evidence and facts?
GadFly bites again.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Ibid.

 

[Magic Man]

It seems to me that it has been so long that you have ever treated the truth of an argument with respect that you could never recognize a real person reasoning with you; therefore, I use the GadFly, who obviously tires of biting you, to enlighten you. You do not light up but swell up. You boast of putting me on your ignore list on another thread. What are you doing insulting me on this thread? If you can not discuss like a gentleman, please adjust your attitude or leave me alone. You like argument, you like confusion, you just don't like being put down. That is how ignorant you are, you do not know when to stop.:cigar::cigar::cigar:

:biglaugh: *wipes tears from his eyes* Ah, thank you, I needed that laugh.

 

[Nanda]

***MOD ADVISORY***

Thread closed for review.​

 

[Fluffy]

*** MOD POST ***
Thread now reopened.

Please don't attack each other. If you can't be civil then don't post.
Thanks
*** MOD POST ***
​

 

[Sunstone]

I do not doubt that the question of the ontological existence of deity is boring.

 

[Katzpur]

I have a theory that most theist who become atheist do so not from logic reasoning about the existence of God but because of some outrage in their life, maybe a serious conflict with one who claims to be Christian, a death of a close fried,etc. , prompts them to turn against God. How correct do you think that theory is?
GadFly

I've addressed this point before in other threads because it really interests me. I can totally understand why someone would turn against a specific religion because of some event in his or her life, but it's harder for me to understand how such an event would cause someone who had previously believed in God to stop believing. I'm a pretty firm believer that we don't choose to believe in God or choose not to believe in Him. We either do or we don't, and while it's possible for that to change from theist to atheist (or visa versa), I've thought it possible to for someone to just "decide" to believe or "decide" not to believe in God. When it comes to accepting the tenets of a specific religion, I think that rational thought and logic is more likely to be a determining factor.

 

[Katzpur]

I have found theists feel a need to demean and belittle atheists, perhaps out of an insecurity in their own position?

And of course this never happens in reverse, huh, Auto? You've never belittled a theist have you?

 

[GadFly]

I've addressed this point before in other threads because it really interests me. I can totally understand why someone would turn against a specific religion because of some event in his or her life, but it's harder for me to understand how such an event would cause someone who had previously believed in God to stop believing. I'm a pretty firm believer that we don't choose to believe in God or choose not to believe in Him. We either do or we don't, and while it's possible for that to change from theist to atheist (or visa versa), I've thought it possible to for someone to just "decide" to believe or "decide" not to believe in God. When it comes to accepting the tenets of a specific religion, I think that rational thought and logic is more likely to be a determining factor.

I agree with you completely. In life that is how most decisions are made. It seems to me that there is an innate calculator synthesizing our thoughts and experiences into a knowledge we are not fully aware of. Excellent reply Katzpur.
Gadfly

 

[Alceste]

I've addressed this point before in other threads because it really interests me. I can totally understand why someone would turn against a specific religion because of some event in his or her life, but it's harder for me to understand how such an event would cause someone who had previously believed in God to stop believing. I'm a pretty firm believer that we don't choose to believe in God or choose not to believe in Him. We either do or we don't, and while it's possible for that to change from theist to atheist (or visa versa), I've thought it possible to for someone to just "decide" to believe or "decide" not to believe in God. When it comes to accepting the tenets of a specific religion, I think that rational thought and logic is more likely to be a determining factor.

Good point, I wonder about that myself. It seems there are people who need a god or gods and people who don't. Team hopping seems to be limited to a) people who grew up in a religious family and finally realized they didn't need a god or a religion, so became atheists for life, and b) people who were brought up in a religious family, then denied god because their religion was too restrictive, then felt lost and panicky and returned to the fold (perhaps a less restrictive one).

For people who don't need a belief in god there doesn't seem to be much fence hopping. My suspicion is that "atheists" who convert to religion needed a personal god all along and experienced a great deal of inner conflict over their non-belief. No conflict, no conversion.

 

[Magic Man]

Good point, I wonder about that myself. It seems there are people who need a god or gods and people who don't. Team hopping seems to be limited to a) people who grew up in a religious family and finally realized they didn't need a god or a religion, so became atheists for life, and b) people who were brought up in a religious family, then denied god because their religion was too restrictive, then felt lost and panicky and returned to the fold (perhaps a less restrictive one).

For people who don't need a belief in god there doesn't seem to be much fence hopping. My suspicion is that "atheists" who convert to religion needed a personal god all along and experienced a great deal of inner conflict over their non-belief. No conflict, no conversion.

Very good thoughts. I'd frubal you, but I can't at the moment. I'll have to hit you later. I always wonder about atheists who get out of religion after childhood and then return after being an atheist. It doesn't make sense, unless it's because of some mystical experience that they perceive as a religious experience.

 

[Somkid]

There are plenty of religious and theistic people who I know and respect, and I do tend to think to myself "hmm... if they think that maybe there's something to it." This has led me to mull over everything from Catholicism to pacificism to libertarianism to tattoos.



Would you say that a person who doesn't seriously believe in ghosts, but still sometimes gets a bit spooked out in a dark basement is "agnostic" when it comes to spirits?

I would say someone that doesn't believe in the supernatural that gets "spooked" is afraid of other human beings hiding in the basement waiting to rob them or kill them, watch the news you have never seen a "ghost" reported for committing a crime.

 

[Somkid]

So should theists who have doubts also be grouped with agnostics?

I guess that depends on how long the doubt lasts and how strong it is. I considered myself a theist for a long time until I started noticing that there was nothing to support what I was taught or told to believe so I became more of an agnostic until I found the truth for myself (maybe not the truth but my truth) thus at some point you have to get off the fence and find your truth.

 

[Somkid]

So should theists who have doubts also be grouped with agnostics?

I guess that depends on how long the doubt lasts and how strong it is. I considered myself a theist for a long time until I started noticing that there was nothing to support what I was taught or told to believe so I became more of an agnostic until I found the truth for myself (maybe not the truth but my truth) thus at some point you have to get off the fence and find your truth.

Do as you will, but not because you must.
Zen saying

 

[Smoke]

Im just curious..I have moments of doubt..They are usually brief..But sometimes for days..Then I always go back to being convinced and 100% positive there is a God.

Do Athiest do this in reverse?..Wonder if they are wrong?..And if so does it frighten you?..Because it frightens me when I feel unsure..

My moments of doubt eventually resulted in my being an atheist.

Once the problem was resolved, the symptom went away, too.

All my beliefs are subject to change in the face of new evidence, but I have no more doubts about the non-existence of god than about the non-existence of Santa Claus.

 

[wednesday]

My belief is too strong, i was brought up religious, but went away from it. I could never go back, there is little room for strict rules in my life. i think people rebel from God for a reason, and usually stick to their guns, just like a priest upholds his faith. Born again Christians to me are confused little people, if they left God's chapel the first time, why would they return to sing his praises? I really would like a reason as in my life experience quoting scripture really doesn't make me want to drop what im doing and become a man of God.

 

[Alceste]

Very good thoughts. I'd frubal you, but I can't at the moment. I'll have to hit you later. I always wonder about atheists who get out of religion after childhood and then return after being an atheist. It doesn't make sense, unless it's because of some mystical experience that they perceive as a religious experience.

The impression I get is that there are more than a few people calling themselves "atheists" out there who are actually only rebelling against whatever God they believe in. Since they can't imagine not even believing in God enough to be rebelling against him, they assume they are atheists, but in fact they are tormented, conflicted theists in denial. When they finally return to the church they tell "I used to be an atheist" stories which give religious people the misguided belief that actual atheists (ie people who have never even believed in any gods enough to rebel against them) can be won over. I suppose there are also people raised as atheists who have always needed a personal god and eventually turn to religion.

IME, a perspective-shifting mystical experience is not very likely to inspire one to join a "One True Path" religious movement. Mystical experiences lead to doubt and questioning, not dogma. Mystics tend to go for querying paths that encourage continuing exploration, such as Buddhism, rather than "sit down and I'll tell you the truth" religions.

I would attribute the need for a personal god in many cases to unmet childhood needs rather than mystical awakening, although you sometimes find them both together.

 

[GadFly]

The impression I get is that there are more than a few people calling themselves "atheists" out there who are actually only rebelling against whatever God they believe in. Since they can't imagine not even believing in God enough to be rebelling against him, they assume they are atheists, but in fact they are tormented, conflicted theists in denial. When they finally return to the church they tell "I used to be an atheist" stories which give religious people the misguided belief that actual atheists (ie people who have never even believed in any gods enough to rebel against them) can be won over. I suppose there are also people raised as atheists who have always needed a personal god and eventually turn to religion.

IME, a perspective-shifting mystical experience is not very likely to inspire one to join a "One True Path" religious movement. Mystical experiences lead to doubt and questioning, not dogma. Mystics tend to go for querying paths that encourage continuing exploration, such as Buddhism, rather than "sit down and I'll tell you the truth" religions.

I would attribute the need for a personal god in many cases to unmet childhood needs rather than mystical awakening, although you sometimes find them both together.

Here is one theist that agrees with you very strongly. Your last statement is especially true about theist and atheist alike. It has been my believe for a long time that both religion and atheism can be more of an outcry for emotional stability as much as a spiritual experience led by reasoning and logic. I see a greater need for emotional knowledge among Christians and especially the extreme person who holds the beliefs of an atheist who uses his/her faith to badger persons with normal human standards.Both religion and atheism can be an expression of dignity of manhood.
GadFly