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How many Creators exist?

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
That's quite a leap you're making, there. I'm not quite sure I follow how you got to it. Would you be willing to expand upon how you came to this conclusion?

In Logic, if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C. If metaphors are tools of fiction and someone uses a metaphor as his only way to explain a story, the implication is that the story is fiction.

I was, however, not referring to a metaphor to understand the existence of God; just the Divine's nature

Is that not like saying, “I am not referring to my father but to the man that made me with my mother”?

and how we'll not fully understand it as we're, in comparison, limited.
In comparison to what specifically and how limited?



I'm quite certain I'm I don't believe in the existence of God as purely metaphor. :)
Only you could know that. I was merely requesting additional information to help me understand your position, which I respect whether, or not, I share.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
In Logic, if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C. If metaphors are tools of fiction and someone uses a metaphor as his only way to explain a story, the implication is that the story is fiction.
The stories and such aren't the Divine, though. They're just examples so we can relate to it. However, literalism does not exclusively mean existence. The stories may be fiction and metaphor, but that's because people will understand metaphors and stories better than they will understand something massively different.

Is that not like saying, “I am not referring to my father but to the man that made me with my mother”?
No, it's not like saying that, at all.

In comparison to what specifically and how limited?
IMHO, we're ordinary beings; trapped in the confines of time, space, matter, and so on and so forth. I don't believe this is the case with the Divine, whom I interpret as massively different from us.


Only you could know that. I was merely requesting additional information to help me understand your position, which I respect whether, or not, I share.
Thanks. :)
 
Every creator has a creator.
So there could be zero or an infinite number of'm.

Good call. My agenda tells me to vote for the zero. ;)

Causality arguments tick me off, and Christians have zero clue as to how to read a Jewish book; for all other considerations there's the science of emergence. In my shorthand, the universe creates itself from nothing continuously. But I'm Setian, I take liberties. ;)
 
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In Logic, if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C. If metaphors are tools of fiction and someone uses a metaphor as his only way to explain a story, the implication is that the story is fiction.

Literalism does not necessarily determine existence. For example, we utilise story to share a purpose or lesson. We utilise descriptives and adjectives to describe a concept, without even knowing about the concept directly. We can not touch love, nor understand it, but we utilise symbols, metaphors and visual depictions to convey this concept in a tangible way.

Love is real, even if our qualifiers fail to fully express the emotion that can only be experienced through feeling.

Same with God and Eir existence. Ey is so powerful, and why can Ey not utilise story to bring about eternal purposes. Scripture brings us to give a glimpse of God's power and greatness, even if our conceptions are limitations and idols of fancy that God's limitless Personality goes beyond.


"The Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding."

-- 2 Nephi 31:3


"And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written."

-- 2 Nephi 29:9-10


Is that not like saying, “I am not referring to my father but to the man that made me with my mother”?
More like the mother saying "I am not your father, so I can not truly say about him; nevertheless, I know him by these virtues that he possesses..."
 
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Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Someone had to be....'First'.

In the scheme of superlatives....Someone has to be....'Almighty'.
No, someone need not be, if that's not how it is. If anything it is the human desire to have the One God be a superlative, that creates this false requirement. And as I said, the properties of the Universe don't support such an idea ;)
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
Literalism does not necessarily determine existence. For example, we utilise story to share a purpose or lesson. We utilise descriptives and adjectives to describe a concept, without even knowing about the concept directly.

Making grammatical sense is not the same as developing a cogent argument. The best way to test your logic is to put it to good use in real life. Call it literalism or reality, if your car breaks down and you don't know how to fix it, you are stuck unless someone who knows how to fix it does it for you.

If you are lost alone in a forest and you don't know how to survive in it, you die unless someone else rescues you first. All the philosophical explanations will not save you.
We can not touch love, nor understand it, but we utilise symbols, metaphors and visual depictions to convey this concept in a tangible way.

Love is real, even if our qualifiers fail to fully express the emotion that can only be experienced through feeling.
Love is a real emotion that can be defined in different ways by different individuals and can be observed by a series of behaviors. Love is unique in every individual as is pain and any other emotions. Your emotions only exist in you. They are not transferable and they do not exist outside of you. No one would pray to your emotions and no one would attribute superpowers to them.

Same with God and Eir existence.
Exactly, God is an emotion that you feel. One that is real to you in a different way that it is real to any other person because your emotions only exist in you, and your god only exists in you.

Ey is so powerful,
Yes, emotions are all powerful. I knew a woman that died of sadness after her husband was murdered. I also know people that have risked their lives out of love. Ithink our emotions are all powerful and what guides most of our actions
and why can Ey not utilise story to bring about eternal purposes.
You and other people are the ones that tell yourselves and others stories about God. You cannot blame your emotions for the stories that you may use to express those emotions. The emotions are yours, not the other way around, and emotions cannot tell stories. People do.

Scripture brings us to give a glimpse of God's power and greatness, even if our conceptions are limitations and idols of fancy that God's limitless Personality goes beyond.
Scripture comes from Latin and it means literally "writing". People write poetry, philosophy, novels, books of mathematics, religious books, and other writings about anything in life including emotions. Writing was considered mysterious by those that were illiterate many centuries ago and the word "scripture" (writing) had a mystical sort of air about it. Now people use the word "scripture" with the same mystique as illiterate people did when the word "scripture" was used instead of the word "writing".

Now both words are used. The old one is used when people want to add mystique to written material, and the word "writing" is used when people simply concentrate on content.

Whether you want to call it "Scripture" or simply "writing", emotions do not write anything. People do.

"The Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding."

-- 2 Nephi 31:3
Can you see the purposeful intent to give some words mystique? Notice the purposeful use of Old English as if that gave it more credibility. Do your feelings speak Old English?

"And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written."

-- 2 Nephi 29:9-10


More like the mother saying "I am not your father, so I can not truly say about him; nevertheless, I know him by these virtues that he possesses..."
I have a mother and a father, and I think it is best for children to have a mother and a father. It sounds sad that the child would not know his/her father and that the mother would only know the father by his virtues. Is he generous and pays for favors? It sounds unwholesome.
 
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crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Every time I ask a question about God, the Creator, I get hundreds of different answers mostly in constant disagreement no matter whether the respondents are of the "same" faith or not.

That leads me to ask. If a person's God is a product of each person's own desires for a God with specific attributes, why bother citing religious texts that every contributor appears to interpret differently?

If I ask, "what is the capital of France?" every intelligent person would respond, "Paris". If I ask, "is God male or female", I get as many opinions as contributors.

Are you all telling me that each of you make up each or your Gods to your own liking and to your ability to imagine, or that there are many Gods, one for each believer?

I don't believe there was a creation. Matter and enery have always existed.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
I don't believe there was a creation. Matter and energy have always existed.
I am certain that something always "existed", and perhaps you are correct, but I am not sure anyone could say categorically that matter and energy have always existed. Matter and energy could be byproducts of other things that existed before, or of things that continue to exist and that we do not know exist yet.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I don't believe there was a creation. Matter and enery have always existed.

Whether matter & energy have always existed or not, doesn't tell us why the universe is apparently expanding from an infinitely dense 'singularity'
ie. infinitely small --> practically nothing!

It also doesn't explain WHY it's happened / is happening..
And yes .. I think it DOES need a reason! Most things do.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
I am certain that something always "existed", and perhaps you are correct, but I am not sure anyone could say categorically that matter and energy have always existed. Matter and energy could be byproducts of other things that existed before, or of things that continue to exist and that we do not know exist yet.

Most multiverse or parallel universe theories postulate an eternal existence of the birth and death of universes, implying that matter and energy have always existed.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Whether matter & energy have always existed or not, doesn't tell us why the universe is apparently expanding from an infinitely dense 'singularity'
ie. infinitely small --> practically nothing!

It also doesn't explain WHY it's happened / is happening..
And yes .. I think it DOES need a reason! Most things do.

An "infinitely dense 'singularity'" is as far away from "nothing" as you can get.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
what is hillarious is that many theist expect science to jump through so many hoops. In this case almost 14 billion years ago and they want better answers lovely.

But their deity never gets the same treatment, faith is all that is required.

its a double standard really
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
An "infinitely dense 'singularity'" is as far away from "nothing" as you can get.

Explain to me WHY you should think that, please?

I would say that as it approaches infinity, the space it occupies disappears.

It's one of those "mysteries" :D

ie. you can't put it "tidily in a box" and physically explain it
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
Explain to me WHY you should think that, please?

I would say that as it approaches infinity, the space it occupies disappears.

It's one of those "mysteries" :D

ie. you can't put it "tidily in a box" and physically explain it
Well, think of it: it contains so much that space itself is distorted. Heck, Time is even distorted. That's pretty full.
 

terryboy

Member
The singularity is the entire universe compacted into 0 volume and infinite mass.

It can be considered as 'nothing' only if we consider this universe as 'nothing'

Could there be other singularities? I believe there are infinite numbers of singularities and other universes that's existing parallel to ours.

There could be a universe where cows can communicate by telepathy. There could be another universe where I am omnipotent (just my imagination). There could be another universe where you are God.

How many creators exist? I think infinite
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
Every time I ask a question about God, the Creator, I get hundreds of different answers mostly in constant disagreement no matter whether the respondents are of the "same" faith or not.

That leads me to ask. If a person's God is a product of each person's own desires for a God with specific attributes, why bother citing religious texts that every contributor appears to interpret differently?

If I ask, "what is the capital of France?" every intelligent person would respond, "Paris". If I ask, "is God male or female", I get as many opinions as contributors.

Are you all telling me that each of you make up each or your Gods to your own liking and to your ability to imagine, or that there are many Gods, one for each believer?
________________________________________

I believe that it is completely possible for there to be one creator, with many aspects. I think that it is fine for a person to relate to that aspect that most closely applies for furthering the person's understanding, but focusing on one aspect does not of necessity erase the other aspects.

For example: I am one person.

Within that I am: Child, Niece, Aunt, Cousin, Grandchild, Spouse, Mother, Friend, Employer or Employee (or unemployed,) Teacher or Student...

I also have one body that is doing multiple things simultaneously.

Both God and people are much larger than any definition that may be used to identify aspects of them. And, there are some aspects that only apply to certain contexts.

I am Mother, but not within the same context that I am Child.
 
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Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
That an incredible amount of mass can distort Time isn't a case of our laws not always holding, though. It's a calculation of those laws ;)

But yes, perhaps someday you will understand.
 
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