How many Theists are Atheists too?

[stvdv]

Knowledge is a subset of belief.

I like this emoticon

I agree here. Knowledge is a subset of belief (don't jump to conclusions too fast though)

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Knowledge is belief that has been validated. It has been shown to be reliable and consistent.

I think all knowledge has some basis in belief. So if I say I have no knowledge of a god, that means there is nothing known about a God I believe to be reliable and consistent.

For me this is what atheism is about. Accepting that there is nothing known about a god that is reliable or consistent. So I lack a belief that there exists any reliable knowledge about a god.

In the end all justification of reliable knowledge about the world as separate from the mind is not possible as all versions of justified true beliefs as knowledge run into Agrippa's Trilemma and Descartes's evil demon.

So the idea of some non-religious people that they have knowledge is in effect no different that some religious people. They both claim a knowledge, that apparently is not there.
In modern terms your knowledge would be the same regardless if you are a normal universe or in some versions of a Boltzmann Brain universe and you have no way of knowing if it is the one or the other.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It used to be that atheist did not mean belief in go gods but belief in personable, intervening gods (which is what theism was. A type of god belief, not belief in any god). It was equivocal to deism. This structure is still used today in some circles. Though generally it's been replaced by 'nontheism'.

So if you really wanted to go to town explaining limited use definitions to people who by in large use common definitions, you could say you're an atheist who believes in god(s). But even then atheism and theism would be mutually exclusive terms.

 

[alsome]

was one; now not. But, there's a little trinity in all of us, depending on what trinities are made from ?

 

[Nakosis]

In the end all justification of reliable knowledge about the world as separate from the mind is not possible as all versions of justified true beliefs as knowledge run into Agrippa's Trilemma and Descartes's evil demon.

So the idea of some non-religious people that they have knowledge is in effect no different that some religious people. They both claim a knowledge, that apparently is not there.
In modern terms your knowledge would be the same regardless if you are a normal universe or in some versions of a Boltzmann Brain universe and you have no way of knowing if it is the one or the other.

Sure, and maybe this if off-topic but I stick with what works for me.

In the case of religion or God, I don't currently find any of this belief necessary or useful. Nothing there helpful in my daily life. However other "knowledge" I find necessary, I could not succeed without.

 

[Quintessence]

This is part of why I never define atheism/theism on the basis of belief. I suppose that doesn't really matter since I find both of those terms useless (or at best, contextually useful and only contextually useful).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Start is belief, end is knowing. "Belief" implies "not knowing (yet)".
IF Theism is "belief in God" AND "God does not exist" would make not much sense
IF Theism is "belief in God" AND "God exists" THEN natural "knowing is important in Theism"

Why do some theist say they believe, but evangelize or talk of god as if they know?

 

[stvdv]

It used to be that atheist did not mean belief in go gods but belief in personable, intervening gods

Nice typo "go gods"

intervening gods (which is what theism was. A type of god belief, not belief in any god). It was equivocal to deism.

It does get a bit complex with all different terminology. And changing definitions. Almost like Babylon. But also nice that there is something for all.

 

[Quintessence]

Why do some theist say they believe, but evangelize or talk of god as if they know?

Part of it is because like most words, "believe" is polysemic. When someone asks if someone "believes in" something, they could be asking:

• Do you believe in this thing as ontologically real from your perspective?
• Do you believe in this thing as a matter of principle or as part of your values?
• Do you believe in this thing by trusting in it as a source of guidance or authority?

More than likely, these people are talking about belief in the second and third sense, not the first (which is a given). They know their god is ontologically real. What they believe is that their god is a high principle or value to be upheld, or that their god is something to place trust in as an authority.

 

[stvdv]

Why do some theist say they believe, but evangelize or talk of god as if they know?

I explained it already before in below quote

Start is belief, end is knowing. "Belief" implies "not knowing (yet)".
IF Theism is "belief in God" AND "God does not exist" would make not much sense
IF Theism is "belief in God" AND "God exists" THEN natural "knowing is important in Theism"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I like this emoticon

I agree here. Knowledge is a subset of belief (don't jump to conclusions to fast though)

You know. It reminds me of a child. They accept their teacher is right that two and two is four. They don't aquire the knowledge until they learn how to add it themselves.

Some children may have been told not to "add for themselves" but accept (or believe) what their teacher says.

So if the teacher is happy with getting the right answer, so should the child. Etc. After awhile the experiences the teacher has,the child can't tell the difference.

So if I ask the child how he got his answer (prove it) he can't. Only what his teacher says. Since the child sees himself as unknowing unlike his teacher, he can't say he knows what he experiences is true just believes.

UVA Philosophy 101.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I explained it already before in below quote

Guess I was talking out loud. Directness shouldn't have a double standard, huh

 

[oldbadger]

How many Theists are Atheists too?

Most of them!

Definition Atheism: Lack of belief in any God

No. t's time to sort out the dictionaries on that one.
Deists are non-theists, even atheists, but they do believe in a Deity, a God, just not an involved God.

As per this definition I am an Atheist. I know that God exists

Me too......

Note 1: Speak for yourself, try not to generalize or speak for others - let's leave that to ***
Note 2: Use your own words, not copy/paste verses from Bible or other Scriptures
Note 3: In this thread there is no need to prove to others IF you speak for yourself
Note 4: Speaking for yourself: I believe, I feel, I know, I think and IMHO, IMO etc

Speaking for myself I believe that everything is part of the Deity, but a Deity so vast that it is quite unaware of us, ergo, it is not an involved God, and Theism is about involved, aware Gods.

 

[stvdv]

No. t's time to sort out the dictionaries on that one.
Deists are non-theists, even atheists, but they do believe in a Deity, a God, just not an involved God.

Not easy with all the denominations. I guess Deism has relatively few denominations?

How many Theists are Atheists too?

Most of them!

As per this definition I am an Atheist. I know that God exists

Me too......

Speaking for myself I believe that everything is part of the Deity, but a Deity so vast that it is quite unaware of us, ergo, it is not an involved God, and Theism is about involved, aware Gods.

Just recently I learned about Deism. This is a nice description, thanks.
So, if I understand it well, you miss out on all the fun of God playing pranks on us? But at least you also miss out on Hell and stuff

 

[stvdv]

Some children may have been told not to "add for themselves" but accept (or believe) what their teacher says.

You never have studied "under" a Real Spiritual Master it seems to me. I met a few Masters in real life, and they were anything but that

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Nice typo "go gods"

I worked a little too hard this week and ended up with a cold. So I'm RFing with my phone from bed. Not the best way to type long sentences. Lol.

It does get a bit complex with all different terminology. And changing definitions. Almost like Babylon. But also nice that there is something for all.

Part of loving language is the understanding that it's a dynamic, evolving system and that while two people can agree on the definition of a term, trying to say one definition is immutably true is foolhardy. Nobody controls definitions. If no common ground can yet be found, take a page from the improv peeps and 'yes, and' to another approach to common ground.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You never have studied "under" a Real Spiritual Master it seems to me. I met a few Masters in real life, and they were anything but that

Nope. That would have been nice, though.

 

[Neuropteron]

How many Theists are Atheists too?

Definition Atheism: Lack of belief in any God

As per this definition I am an Atheist. I know that God exists

Note 1: Speak for yourself, try not to generalize or speak for others - let's leave that to ***
Note 2: Use your own words, not copy/paste verses from Bible or other Scriptures
Note 3: In this thread there is no need to prove to others IF you speak for yourself
Note 4: Speaking for yourself: I believe, I feel, I know, I think and IMHO, IMO etc

Hi,
A belief is only valid if it's backed up by actions. So in this sense IMHO, a person can claims to be a Theist but his action can show him to be an Atheist.

Cheers.

 

[rational experiences]

A theist is the original description for self.

O God the planet is named God, O stone, a planet, the Earth, a cosmological formed presence.

In use of common human sense, we have to be self present first in a natural human consciousness, to think scientific thesis ideas, or to tell stories.

Yet all highest natural states exist, including self human presence.

Therefore a storyteller is in fact against natural form, when you infer you can describe it. For it did not exist naming/describing itself.

A theist is virtually the theist today who removed self from ownership of first idealised status A the alpha consciousness in word expression.

For the theist became possessed by their own human storytelling pretend thesis for the want of being a Creator their own self. What science by status is, an inventive Creator theme, yet artificial by choice.

When you are a spiritual human. You know you are living on a planet with a natural history and you do not need to tell stories. Just live and survive in the highest living self condition that you own. As a self, and as an extended human family membership in human reality.

Spiritual ownership was always with self presence, human first.

 

[Tiberius]

How many Theists are Atheists too?

Definition Atheism: Lack of belief in any God

As per this definition I am an Atheist. I know that God exists

Note 1: Speak for yourself, try not to generalize or speak for others - let's leave that to ***
Note 2: Use your own words, not copy/paste verses from Bible or other Scriptures
Note 3: In this thread there is no need to prove to others IF you speak for yourself
Note 4: Speaking for yourself: I believe, I feel, I know, I think and IMHO, IMO etc

The claim that you KNOW that God exists suggests that you have some hard evidence, something that is verifiable by others. Would you care to share it?