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How Much Do You Doubt God's Existence?

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I'm afraid not .. unless you can categorically prove events that happened billions of years ago.
There are many competing hypotheses.

You are mixing things up.
One claim at a time please.

First, no, there are not "many competing hypothesis" concerning evolution theory. In fact, there is just the one model.

Secondly, again: that humans and other species share ancestors is a genetic fact

Disproved the theory of evolution (= the model, the mechanism) tomorrow, and that fact still remains. Facts are facts. Facts require explanation.
Disproving explanations don't disprove the facts those explanations are addressing.

And off course, there is nothing that disproves evolution as an explanation.

Sorry .. T of E is a sprawling bunch of hypotheses .. some are confirmed beyond reasonable doubt ..
..and some are not.
No. Or at best, not to the extent you are pretending here.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I'll leave that to you .. you claim that LUCA is a fact .. prove it.

Phylogenetic trees.

Do you agree DNA testing can demonstrate common ancestry between individuals?
Which is to say, do you agree DNA testing can demonstrate (=show to be fact) that you and your siblings share parents? That you and your cousins share grand-parents? Etc?

Not that it matters if you "agree" to that or not. It is factually the case.

DNA allows us to determine levels of relatedness between individuals. It allows us to determine common ancestry.
Genetic sequencing of full genomes demonstrates that all species share ancestry.

LUCA is a genetic fact.
 

Ajax

Active Member
There is no logical reason to presume that any human should experience and understand the world (or God) the same as any other. We are all different humans, and we are all experiencing the world (and God) from our own unique perspective. The Muslim idea of and experience of God is not much different from the Jewish idea of and experience of God. And in fact they come from the same historical source. The same is true of Christianity. And of all religions, ultimately. But we humans are tribal, and so will tend to fight amongst our tribes over the slightest differences. As evidenced by the fact that there is so much factionalism even within a given religion. It's just how we humans are.
I disagree. Human understanding of the world comes from our collective intelligence, the sharing of knowledge based on evidence and peer review, whilst the knowledge and understanding of God comes from a 2,500 years old primitive book containing falsehoods, contradictions, fictitious stories, including dreams, "visions" and "miracles".
It's not really different at all when we realize that what you're talking about is faith in empiricism and personal experience as opposed to faith in mysticism and moral idealism. We're all living by faith because none of us has enough real knowledge not to.
It is different. See above.
Everyone is basically looking for control over their own fate. This is as true of those who worship science as it is of those who worship the gods. None of us knows what the **** is going on here and we all feel very vulnerable and insecure because of it. So we're looking for ways of convincing ourselves that we have more control than we actually do, and that we know more about what existence is than we actually know.
People don't worship science. They simply accept the current scientific proof, or whatever is established beyond reasonable doubt.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
An all-knowing, all-powerful god would know exactly what to look like to instantly convince me that that is what I'm looking at without leaving any room for guessing or whatever.
..and believers are convinced .. yet they do not have to "see" in a physical sense.
..which makes sense, as G-d is not a physical concept. :)

We can experience pain and pleasure without having to "see" in that way..
'show me god' is a typical cynical excuse for wilful denial, imo.

One either believes that life is aimless, in a cosmic sense, or..
..or they search for a meaning as to why .
Those that have no interest as to why, spiritually blind themselves, so they can't "see".

..and then you ask, "why do believers all believe different things"?
..and that is due to the complex nature of our souls (mind).
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Phylogenetic trees.

Do you agree DNA testing can demonstrate common ancestry between individuals?
Which is to say, do you agree DNA testing can demonstrate (=show to be fact) that you and your siblings share parents? That you and your cousins share grand-parents? Etc?
Of course I agree..

Genetic sequencing of full genomes demonstrates that all species share ancestry.

LUCA is a genetic fact.
No it doesn't .. no it isn't .. it is a hypothesis that can't be demonstrated.
There are alternative hypotheses also.
 

Ajax

Active Member
..and believers are convinced .. yet they do not have to "see" in a physical sense.
Most believers are convinced because they have been indoctrinated for centuries, that a good person will have his prayers fulfilled, plus a bonus of an afterlife in paradise... Read my signature...
..and then you ask, "why do believers all believe different things"?
..and that is due to the complex nature of our souls (mind).
So, there is no spirit guiding them with the truth, as you and other theists claim....
Also, there is no soul (mind). There is brain (mind). All soul's supposed attributes are carried out by our brains. There is no need for an intangible, invisible, spiritual and hypothetical substance.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He has a habit of accusing everyone who values evidence and / or doesn't agree with him of "scientism".
Scientism as he uses the word is a pejorative term for somebody who doesn't respect soft thinking, that is, somebody who requires sufficient evidentiary support for a claim before believing it. Like many believers, he sees himself as having a special way of knowing not available to the critical thinker which I haven't seen called the Holy Spirit, but serves the same role for him as a source of special knowledge.

When he's in a more charitable mood, he calls such people materialists, but he also likes to imply that they have an excessive reliance on science when he uses the word scientism.
People don't worship science.
That's what scientism is to that poster. He is offended at having his sweeping, unfounded, unevidenced claims about reality rejected by critical thinkers.
people don't have a sexual relationship with G-d .. so not "a person" in that sense of the word.
That's how you define a person - someone you can have sex with?

Whatever, you'll have to take that up with the faithful who consider their god a person. I don't, although I would agree that it has a personality as described, and not a very pleasant one at that by my reckoning.
as far as insurers are concerned, they are "natural"
That doesn't matter. Insurers don't define anything except within their businesses.
Your belief seems to suggest that things have evolved the way they have, just because "they can".
That's how nature works. A landslide occurs whenever it can. Water freezes whenever it can.
There are alternative hypotheses also.
To LUCA? Yeah, there's biblical creationism, but that hypothesis is incorrect.

The evidence for a LUCA for the entire tree of extant and extinct life is robust:

"The universal genetic code is arguably the most robust evidence for the existence of LUCA. Virtually every organism, from the tiniest bacteria to the largest mammals, uses the same genetic code. This means that the triplet sequences of nucleotides in DNA, called codons, code for the same amino acids almost universally."

That code is a substitution code, meaning that it's arbitrary and could have been any other number of ways. UUU is arbitrarily connected to lysine, and CUA to asparagine. The same series of amino acids would be assembled if the DNA read GAU.AAA and CUA were connected to lysine and UUU to asparagine.

By contrast, the connection between AAA and UUU or GAU and CUA is NOT arbitrary. That's physical and depends on the conformation and charge distribution of those nucleotides.

1714396415533.png
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Most believers are convinced because they have been indoctrinated for centuries..
Pure assumption .. you can only speak for why you don't have any care for God.

So, there is no spirit guiding them with the truth, as you and other theists claim...
Of course there is!
Why does everything have to be in black & white .. are you a digital AI bot? :)
Even AI bots can appreciate analog concept.

Also, there is no soul (mind). There is brain (mind).
That is only a belief that cannot be demonstrated.
In fact, psychologists have reason to believe that the mind is more than 'the brain' .

Denial of soul (whether material or otherwise), is denial of reality.

All soul's supposed attributes are carried out by our brains..
Who cares?
Perhaps such a belief can support a life according to your own desires .. denial of higher authority .. etc.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
To LUCA? Yeah, there's biblical creationism, but that hypothesis is incorrect.
No, no .. forget your "creationism" .. indeed, forget all "isms", because they are man-made.

No, there are alternative scientific hypotheses..

The last universal common ancestor (LUCA) is the hypothesized common ancestral cell from which the three domains of life, the Bacteria, the Archaea, and the Eukarya originated.
Last_universal_common_ancestor - Wikipedia

The evidence for a LUCA for the entire tree of extant and extinct life is robust:

"The universal genetic code is arguably the most robust evidence for the existence of LUCA. Virtually every organism, from the tiniest bacteria to the largest mammals, uses the same genetic code. This means that the triplet sequences of nucleotides in DNA, called codons, code for the same amino acids almost universally."
Right .. so no evidence as such .. it is "deduced from" .. implied.
Might be right, or might be wrong.

People put their faith into theories of their choice .. and this has consequence .. that's reality.

That's how nature works. A landslide occurs whenever it can. Water freezes whenever it can..
..and universes appear whenever they can? o_O
..it's almost laughable.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there are alternative scientific hypotheses..
Only the hypothesis that all extant and extinct life on earth arose from the same ancestral population has evidentiary support, and I gave what that evidence was. You offered no counterargument, no rebuttal, no attempt to falsify. Remember this: a correct statement cannot be falsified. That's the key principle underlying dialectic, the scientific method including peer review, and courtroom trials. Regarding dialectic, the last plausible unrebutted statement is considered provisionally correct. Regarding peer review, when nothing in the paper or theory can be refuted, it is considered provisionally correct. When either attorney presents a plausible theory that accounts for all relevant facts and which cannot be refuted, the jury is ready to vote.
so no evidence as such .. it is "deduced from" .. implied.
Yes, evidence as such, whatever you mean by that. Conclusions are deduced from evidence using reason and memory (experiential knowledge).

It seems that you don't understand the power of deduction. You don't seem to understand the pivotal role deduction plays in sound argumentation. Assuming I had evidence that you are a flesh-and-blood person, I could infer/deduce that you were once conceived, gestated, delivered, took a first breath, learned to walk (assuming you do), and learned a language. And yes, all of that is "implied" by you being a human being, and it is all correct. I don't need to ask you. I can tell you just as you can say all of the same things about me and everybody else who walks and talks.

But once a person becomes untethered from empiricism and feels free to engage in faith and magical thinking, he makes comments like, "You can't know that because you didn't see it," "That's just speculation," and "You're just assuming." No. Those are facts, at least for people alive in 2024.
and universes appear whenever they can?
Of course. Nothing can stop them if they are possible and the conditions are right.

Lyrics from the Grateful Dead: "Who can stop what must arrive now? Something new is waiting to be born." Jump ahead to 2:37 if you don't want to hear the whole song. And here are the lyrics if you'd like to read along:


Edit: Just encountered this meme. The lyrics are from this song, Crazy Fingers.

1714414798452.png
 
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Ajax

Active Member
Pure assumption .. you can only speak for why you don't have any care for God.
The factors that people are convinced are mainly 1) Religious upbringing is the most significant role. Faith is instilled from childhood through teachings, rituals, and practices within their family or religious community. 2) Community and tradition where the place of birth usually dictates one's religion. And to a lesser extend 3) Personal experience including miracles. Many theists report having personal experiences that they interpret as encounters with the divine or as evidence of the existence of a higher power. These experiences can range from feelings of awe and wonder to more profound encounters such as visions or answered prayers.
Of course there is!
Why does everything have to be in black & white .. are you a digital AI bot? :)
Even AI bots can appreciate analog concept.
You wrote....
and then you ask, "why do believers all believe different things"?
..and that is due to the complex nature of our souls (mind).
This implies that there is no spirit guiding them, otherwise believers would have the same more or less guidance, at least on major issues of theology. For example not all Christians believe in Trinity, others don't believe in Jesus deity, whilst some Christians believe that the prophet Muhammad was just a pedophile.
That is only a belief that cannot be demonstrated.
In fact, psychologists have reason to believe that the mind is more than 'the brain' .
Of course can be demonstrated in clinical tests. There would be no conscious experience without the brain. The so called "mind" is the energy of the brain. Explain what you mind does when you are unconscious, your brain is damaged, or you are dead.

Denial of soul (whether material or otherwise), is denial of reality.
I take that as a joke. Again explain what you soul does when you are unconscious, your brain is damaged, or you are dead.
Who cares?
If you don't care, why do you constantly argue on this subject?
Perhaps such a belief can support a life according to your own desires .. denial of higher authority .. etc.
You mean Kings and Presidents? :shrug:
 
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muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
I take that as a joke. Again explain what you soul does when you are unconscious, your brain is damaged, or you are dead..
No .. not a joke .. you're too busy trying to deny the existence of "a soul" due to its association
with religion, and an afterlife.

The soul (or mind) is a non-physical concept .. BUT AGAIN, you ignore it, as you are too busy trying to prove the immaterial does not exist.

Perhaps explain to your partner that emotions are just hormones, and your intentions are just
a bunch of atoms bla bla bla. :rolleyes:
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No .. not a joke .. you're too busy trying to deny the existence of "a soul" due to its association
with religion, and an afterlife.
You're a religious person. Most adherents of your religion would say that the souls survives death (is immortal) and is supernatural, that is, not a part of nature or derived from nature. If what you meant was mind, perhaps that would have been a better word choice.

Soul may have a different meaning to the dharmics and pagans. For example, they might consider that a soul exists and is immortal, but a part of the universe and derived from it rather than transcend it.

The word has no literal meaning to me at all. Likewise with sin. The atheistic humanist used both words metaphorically: "It would be a sin to live without music, which speaks to the soul." That's a sentence I might write, but I'm not referring to what Christians (for example) are when they use those words. "Speak" is also used metaphorically in that sentence.
The soul (or mind) is a non-physical concept
In naturalism, aka physicalism, everything that exists is part of nature and obeys the laws of physics. All of reality then is mater, energy, force, space, and time, which includes the mind. The idea of a soul in the literal sense is not a part of naturalism/physicalism.
you are too busy trying to prove the immaterial does not exist.
Not at all. Matter is just one of the elements of nature as I just noted. The others (listed above) are all immaterial. Matter a form energy can take. It exists in time and space and generates and responds to force.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
In naturalism, aka physicalism, everything that exists is part of nature and obeys the laws of physics.
"isms" are man-made by definition.

All of reality then is mater, energy, force, space, and time, which includes the mind. The idea of a soul in the literal sense is not a part of naturalism/physicalism.
So what?
Do you deny that we all have a unique character?
Furthermore, our soul feels pain, and experiences pleasure.
 
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