How Much Do You Doubt God's Existence?

[YoursTrue]

We'd have to have a debate about epistemology first to decide what counts as evidence, especially what counts as scientific evidence. Jurisprudence uses a different definition that is much weaker, testimony counts as evidence in court, not in science.

Maybe so, but jurisprudence may have different thresholds for right or wrong and, of course, defense or prosecution may be weak or prejudiced or incomplete. Scientific conclusions based on evidence can change due to various reasons.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wish you wouldn't be so cavalier about language. You attempt paraphrase me continually but actually change the meaning of my words in the process.

I said that the theory of evolution, which proposes that we all descended from a single ancestral population, is established beyond reasonable doubt. There is a small possibility that life on earth descended from two different populations.

I haven't been following this conversation too well, so I hope you will be kind enough to clarify, but wonder if you are speaking of what you describe as 'we all' descended from a single ancestral population insofar as what science describes as the ape population? Or are you referring to the initial substance (single cell perhaps) that supposedly evolved by natural causes into what we see now as far as living matter goes, including of course, humans, plants, fish and the like?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Organisms come to life for a while and then they die.

..so you're just an 'organism'

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Ma book says so, that settles it." is the Christian standard for evidence. (And I don't know, but I guess it is the same in Hinduism.)

That is true for Hindu theists also.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no simple answer to that..
..for example, do we not at least share in the responsibility for undesirable climate-change?

There are answers for that, but there is no evidence that a God is involved in them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They are real enough for my liking .. I take them seriously, as I'm sure we all do.

If not, then why do I see atheists taking about the abhorrence of torture?

We live in a virtual world. Reality of an 'energy world' is different.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No. First of all, I don't have a worldview, but if I did it wouldn't include something I call God. My point is; it isn't enough to ask if God exist, you need to first articulate exactly what you mean by God, rather than expecting me to be able to read your mind. Example; when you say God do you mean people who used to exist but have since died; like Jesus or Haile Selassie? Or someone still living like Kumari, or an inanimate object like the Sun that also exist? Or something like Allah likely the figment of some very wild imaginations? I can't just say something doesn't exist unless I know what you are talking about.

So you’ve never thought to ask yourself, what God might mean to you?

 

[Ajax]

I'm a human being .. imperfect .. I follow what seems good to me.
..as I assume you do.
The difference is, I take belief seriously, so try to comprehend it, and act accordingly.

I do not follow blindly, if that's what you are implying .. I am not blind, as G-d has "opened my eyes".


Why should I have to be a top scholar to have faith?
Experience tells me, that there are reasons why G-d has forbidden things .. it's for our own good.
G-d is not in need .. He is independent, whereas we are far from that .. although we might proudly think we are, especially when we are younger.

I don't judge you. Of course you follow what seems good to you and if it pleases you, that's fine, but I can not understand this "opened my eyes".

All Christian and Muslim denominations claim the opened eyes excuse, but they see things differently, they argue with each other, even to the point of having wars between them. So my point is that only one (or none) of the denominations can be right about the "opening of eyes". Do you agree with that? And as of the things you don't comprehend, as you said, God obviously has not opened your eyes, and therefore you do follow them blindly. Why God hasn't opened your eyes on everything in the scriptures?

Furthermore my question was that if God is unknown (or at least partially unknown) and you can not comprehend all his rules and actions, shouldn't your faith be proportionate to the things you understand? One's level of faith is related to the extent of their understanding.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why God hasn't opened your eyes on everything in the scriptures?

Our spiritual lives are not static .. our deeds affect us .. the more we veer towards undesirable
behavior, the 'darker' we become from a spiritual perspective .. and the more we veer towards
righteousness, the lighter our souls become i.e. we 'see the light'

..so there are degrees of realization .. faith is not black & white like a switch.

Furthermore my question was that if God is unknown (or at least partially unknown) and you can not comprehend all his rules and actions, shouldn't your faith be proportionate to the things you understand? One's level of faith is related to the extent of their understanding.

Knowledge indeed affects our faith, but our intentions and deeds are even more important.

 

[PureX]

I don't judge you. Of course you follow what seems good to you and if it pleases you, that's fine, but I can not understand this "opened my eyes".

All Christian and Muslim denominations claim the opened eyes excuse, but they see things differently, they argue with each other, even to the point of having wars between them. So my point is that only one (or none) of the denominations can be right about the "opening of eyes". Do you agree with that?

No, I wouldn't, anyway. The truth is a singular whole. But we humans dan;t perceive it that way. We can only perceive it from limited, relative points of view. So it is very likely that some of those points of view wiil contradict other points of view. Like the way a mountain will look like a different when viewed from different sides.

There is no logical reason why we should expect any particular human perception or exerience of God to mimic any other. As God is a far greater form of reality that any human will be able to comprehend in full.

And as of the things you don't comprehend, as you said, God obviously has not opened your eyes, and therefore you do follow them blindly.

This is just as true of any of us, in relation to what we call "reality". No human's eyes will ever be fully opened to that which is so far beyond our ability to comprehend.

Furthermore my question was that if God is unknown (or at least partially unknown) and you can not comprehend all his rules and actions, shouldn't your faith be proportionate to the things you understand? One's level of faith is related to the extent of their understanding.

You apparently don't understand what faith is, and what it's for.

We don't need faith when we know what's going on, and what's going to happen. Because we have that knowledge to rely on. It's precisely when we DON'T know what's going on or what's about to happen that we need to trust in the unknown (faith) to keep moving forward.

 

[F1fan]

Maybe so, but jurisprudence may have different thresholds for right or wrong and, of course, defense or prosecution may be weak or prejudiced or incomplete. Scientific conclusions based on evidence can change due to various reasons.

In science reseachers HAVE to account for ALL data and facts. There is no cherrypicking like we see religious folk do with texts. The major reason why conclusions in science change over time is better technology in building more accurate instruments, and more data being accumulated. This means science gets MORE accurate as time goes on.

We see alot of creationists be critical of Darwin for not having conclusions that we have in the 21st century. Why would he, he didn't have access to the technology that could map genetics, or a long history of previous work to build on.

Creationism's Hail Mary is there being a God that exists, but in the 21st century there still isn't any credible evidence that any exist, let alone the one Christians think is described in Genesis. Frankly I don't think Christians would want the God in Genesis to be literal since that version is so contrary to what Jesus taught.

 

[Kfox]

So you’ve never thought to ask yourself, what God might mean to you?

When people speak of God, they're speaking of what God means to THEM not me. My reference to God is based strictly on what other people have said about him; I've never created a concept of God for myself.

 

[RestlessSoul]

When people speak of God, they're speaking of what God means to THEM not me. My reference to God is based strictly on what other people have said about him; I've never created a concept of God for myself.

But like lots of atheists, you speak of God a great deal. Perhaps more than most religious people do. So what do you mean, when you speak of God?

 

[Kfox]

But like lots of atheists, you speak of God a great deal.

You don't know me well enough to make such a claim

Perhaps more than most religious people do. So what do you mean, when you speak of God?

The only time I speak of God is when I am on this forum. When I'm with my family, friends, even my theistic friends, I never speak of God unless they do; which is extremely rare. Again; if someone brings up the subject of God, it's in reference to whatever God they are talking about.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There is no simple answer to that

You were asked, "Who created diseases and disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, famines, tsunamis, tornadoes, typhoons, forest fires, etc. " The correct answer is very simple: nobody. Also, all incorrect answers are simple, too. Name anybody you like and you'll have a simple, incorrect answer.

I notice that you also tried to deflect with, "do we not at least share in the responsibility for undesirable climate-change?" That's irrelevant to the question asked, but its consistent with the Abrahamic tendency to give all credit for good things to its god and all blame for the bad to man and occasionally Satan. You knew you couldn't blame man for natural disasters, but you also wouldn't blame your god, so you equivocated ("no simple answer") then deflected to climate change.

Evaluate .. ponder on .. try to comprehend .. try to live them .. try to gain in wisdom...but not downright reject, or criticize without full knowledge.

"Downright reject, or criticize without full knowledge"? Be honest. Your god can do no wrong in your eyes. You embrace it all uncritically and try to make excuses for what appear to be the sins of this god.

I am willing and able to give God a hard pass on anything I in my mortal condition have any questions about.

This is a more honest appraisal of the believer's approach to his god - a hard pass.

It's all so much more sensible if one drops the deity out of the equation. There is nobody to praise for the good things in life not done by people and nobody to blame for the bad things that happen that we aren't the cause of. We praise nature. We experience gratitude without an agent to be grateful to. It's the authentic spiritual experience, which we recognize as a sense of connection, of belonging, of mystery, gratitude and awe which we experience in a multitude of situations ranging from stargazing to gardening to listening to inspirational music to witnessing a sunset to loving a pet. This is how we evolved.

Contrast that with the Abrahamic understanding of spirituality, which is worshiping spirits that aren't a part of nature at all and redirecting all of that awe and wonder outside of the universe to nonexistent entities in nonexistent places, and when one has a spiritual experience as I described, one interprets it as the Holy Ghost doing this to and for him rather than his own mind experiencing his own world.

These religions go even further destroying the connection to our world that characterizes authentic spirituality. The describe the world in the most negative of terms. Matter (the universe) is inferior to spirit (the other world). The world is an ugly place, bad and getting worse, fit for apocalyptic destruction, a place one shouldn't be involved in, a place where what is called wisdom there is foolishness. The flesh demeans us.

And the result? How many such people tell us that life has no meaning if there is no god or afterlife? What are they telling us has become of them under this training and instruction? All good has been shifted out of reality and is redirected elsewhere. Connection to Mother Nature has been destroyed and they are now connected to nothing and feel alienated in their own world and lives.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You don't know me well enough to make such a claim

The only time I speak of God is when I am on this forum. When I'm with my family, friends, even my theistic friends, I never speak of God unless they do; which is extremely rare. Again; if someone brings up the subject of God, it's in reference to whatever God they are talking about.

You’re on this forum quite a lot. And you must have typed the word God a dozen times today alone. I wouldn’t call that “extremely rare”.

It’s okay, I understand; you want to challenge other people’s beliefs, but not your own.

 

[Kfox]

You’re on this forum quite a lot. And you must have typed the word God a dozen times today alone. I wouldn’t call that “extremely rare”.

It’s okay, I understand; you want to challenge other people’s beliefs, but not your own.

No! I was very clear; I speak of God when on this forum because that is a popular subject. It is when I'm with my friends and family does it rarely come up. But to answer your question; the vast majority of times I speak of God on this forum it is reference to the God of Christianity, due to this being a Christian forum, and the vast majority of theists who come here are Christians. Does this answer your question?

 

[RestlessSoul]

No! I was very clear; I speak of God when on this forum because that is a popular subject. It is when I'm with my friends and family does it rarely come up. But to answer your question; the vast majority of times I speak of God on this forum it is reference to the God of Christianity, due to this being a Christian forum, and the vast majority of theists who come here are Christians. Does this answer your question?

Yes, that answers my question. Though I had no idea this was a Christian forum.

 

[Quester]

Is there any room in your belief to doubt God exists?
Or do you believe in God with 100% certainty?

If you look at religious history, monotheism never existed until the mid-1300s BC, when Akhenaten took polytheism, tossed it out the window, and said the Sun was GOD. I call this event proto-monotheism.
The next major step was the "experience" of Zarathustra and the start of the Zoroastrian monotheistic religion. Dating for this is not possible because all the original texts are gone, and all we have are later writings.
From here, during the exile, the Hebrews lived with the Zoroastrians, took all the information home at the end of this (including the Zoroastrian end times story - and made the Saoshyant the Messiah), rewrote everything, and it has traveled all the way to today from that point.

So, "is there any room in my belief to doubt God exists?" ... I'll say this - there's more data on the existence of aliens than there is of the existence of GOD.

 

[Ajax]

Our spiritual lives are not static .. our deeds affect us .. the more we veer towards undesirable
behavior, the 'darker' we become from a spiritual perspective .. and the more we veer towards
righteousness, the lighter our souls become i.e. we 'see the light'

..so there are degrees of realization .. faith is not black & white like a switch.

What you really mean is that the more faith one has, the more "light" will receive to comprehend things that can not understand. In other words, when one reaches full faith (and deeds) then will see the full light. I personally believe that someone who has full faith, is more likely to try find excuses in order to justify his faith, but will still has misunderstandings.

Knowledge indeed affects our faith, but our intentions and deeds are even more important.

So, you don't need faith only, without deeds, as Paul wrote... OK!