How Odd Is Putin's Russia?

[Tomef]

I am neither a Putin apologist nor a NATO apologist. I think independently and these are my views.
There cannot be peace without addressing Putin's concerns.
NATO can continue the fight at the expense of Ukraine. NATO soldiers are not fighting this war.

Thinking requires information. Simply creating notions within your own head is not the same thing.

Here is some basic info on the on/off attempts by successive govts to engage with NATO countries while keeping Russian aggression at bay, so at least we can talk about real historical events: Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

 

[Glaurung]

I am neither a Putin apologist nor a NATO apologist. I think independently and these are my views.

I don't care how much of an independent thinker you believe yourself to be.

There cannot be peace without addressing Putin's concerns.

Putin's concerns are Russia's claimed right to imperial domination over eastern Europe. Or at the very least, Ukraine and the Baltics.

NATO can continue the fight at the expense of Ukraine. NATO soldiers are not fighting this war.

As much as I predict that the Ukrainians will have to accept some loss of territory eventually, it's up to them to determine whether or not to keep fighting. The Ukrainians are not mindless puppets of NATO, they are a nation (no matter how much Putin denies that) defending their country from a revanchist invader.

 

[Tomef]

That's the key thing that I've noticed. The end result is a weakened and depleted Russia, along with a severely devastated Ukraine. Russia will end up having to turn to China, while Ukraine will become dependent upon the West. Neither Ukraine nor Russia are benefiting from them killing each other like this.

There is tremendous capacity for Ukraine to thrive, if they can get Russia and the Soviet legacy of corruption off their backs. The country has tremendous natural resources, viable access to the Med via the Black Sea, and an industrious and creative population. All they need is to finally break free of Russia. The Baltic states and Romania were almost as corrupt as Ukraine is now under Soviet influence, they are far different places now, no more corrupt than Italy or Spain, and qualitatively and quantitatively different in myriad ways. There's nothing magical about it, it's just a simple process of building a more civilised nation, free of the meddling of corrupt foreign powers.

 

[Revoltingest]

NATO has expanded and encircled Russia.

It ain't even remotely true.
Check your map of the world.

 

[Stevicus]

There is tremendous capacity for Ukraine to thrive, if they can get Russia and the Soviet legacy of corruption off their backs. The country has tremendous natural resources, viable access to the Med via the Black Sea, and an industrious and creative population. All they need is to finally break free of Russia. The Baltic states and Romania were almost as corrupt as Ukraine is now under Soviet influence, they are far different places now, no more corrupt than Italy or Spain, and qualitatively and quantitatively different in myriad ways. There's nothing magical about it, it's just a simple process of building a more civilised nation, free of the meddling of corrupt foreign powers.

The former Soviet Republics and Warsaw Pact states did greatly benefit from the fall of the Soviet Bloc, at which time they were warmly welcomed into the Western fold, backed by the full power of America's military and economic might. "Corruption" is an intangible which can be hard to measure or even identify, since it can be manifested in any number of ways. At its core, politics is just different factions angling for position, using whatever means are at their disposal to bring about a desired outcome.

As it so happens, at least for the past few centuries or so, the countries of the West enjoyed an upper hand and a distinct advantage in terms of industrial development, the global acquisition of resources and control of trade routes and commerce. For whatever reason, some nations got a head start in that process which clearly gave them a distinct advantage over much of the rest of the world which was left behind or ultimately dominated by the West.

So, it's never been any great secret that the West has been better off, financially, industrially, and militarily than most of the rest of the world for quite some time. Other countries which have been traditional allies of the West or otherwise friendly to Western interests have also benefited from the vast wealth and resources of the West. This would include the aforementioned Baltic States, Romania, and possibly even Ukraine in the future. Being aligned with America and the West comes with certain perks and luxuries that the Soviets couldn't afford to offer. Bad luck for them.

The result is a world where a few fortunate nations have become wealthy, powerful, and with far greater influence and might than the vast majority of nations which are weaker and tend to fall under the hegemony and influence of larger powers. That may be a different form of "corruption" which takes place, but it's also been the reality of how the world has generally worked.

I don't know how that can be changed. I once believed that the world was moving in a more progressive and enlightened direction, but I'm not so sure anymore. And with the overriding issue of climate change getting worse, it suggests a future where factions and countries will be scrambling for resources and whatever they can in a fight for survival. There will be no global cooperation on this issue as the panic starts to rise.

We have to find a way to stop this insanity.

 

[Tomef]

The former Soviet Republics and Warsaw Pact states did greatly benefit from the fall of the Soviet Bloc, at which time they were warmly welcomed into the Western fold, backed by the full power of America's military and economic might. "Corruption" is an intangible which can be hard to measure or even identify, since it can be manifested in any number of ways. At its core, politics is just different factions angling for position, using whatever means are at their disposal to bring about a desired outcome.

As it so happens, at least for the past few centuries or so, the countries of the West enjoyed an upper hand and a distinct advantage in terms of industrial development, the global acquisition of resources and control of trade routes and commerce. For whatever reason, some nations got a head start in that process which clearly gave them a distinct advantage over much of the rest of the world which was left behind or ultimately dominated by the West.

So, it's never been any great secret that the West has been better off, financially, industrially, and militarily than most of the rest of the world for quite some time. Other countries which have been traditional allies of the West or otherwise friendly to Western interests have also benefited from the vast wealth and resources of the West. This would include the aforementioned Baltic States, Romania, and possibly even Ukraine in the future. Being aligned with America and the West comes with certain perks and luxuries that the Soviets couldn't afford to offer. Bad luck for them.

The result is a world where a few fortunate nations have become wealthy, powerful, and with far greater influence and might than the vast majority of nations which are weaker and tend to fall under the hegemony and influence of larger powers. That may be a different form of "corruption" which takes place, but it's also been the reality of how the world has generally worked.

I don't know how that can be changed. I once believed that the world was moving in a more progressive and enlightened direction, but I'm not so sure anymore. And with the overriding issue of climate change getting worse, it suggests a future where factions and countries will be scrambling for resources and whatever they can in a fight for survival. There will be no global cooperation on this issue as the panic starts to rise.

We have to find a way to stop this insanity.

There’s nothing intangible about Soviet-Style corruption. What’s the most corrupt country you’ve lived in? How much time did you spend there, and did you speak the language?

 

[Tomef]

Being aligned with America and the West comes with certain perks and luxuries t

It’s a bit more than ‘perks and luxuries’. I farmed here in Romania for several years; that simply wouldn’t have been worth the bother without EU subsidies. And that’s only the surface of it. Soviet states make the West look like a paragon of environmental stewardship, and people in even modern-day Russia - other than the privileged - are treated like simple dross. That attitude spread like a cancer across the satellite states. Here, as one minor example, farm workers used to ‘treat’ the fields with literal poisons - as in directly poisonous to humans, not just carrying possible carcinogens - and had to be admitted to hospital for life-preserving treatments periodically. And that was just for farming. Look into how Soviet troops of the various nations were treated during WWII. They were treated as badly as slaves, and not just during battle. Large numbers of conscripts were literally chained and marched across huge distances. An attrition rate of 40% or more was considered normal - and that’s before they got anywhere near the front line. The rape of female troops by officers was just a normal thing. Officers wrote about it in their memoirs. Those are just two examples out of a whole morass of utter, disastrous incompetency, corruption and malicious idiocy. Corruption is a long way from being difficult to nail down, it’s the difference between getting a decent job or not, getting anything , or not. Putin’s cronies have snapped up top positions in Russian academic institutions, as another example, despite being utter morons. They can simply do that, just do a couple of favours and take the job. That is ruining the few branches of academia not entrenched in parochial thinking still viable over there. But no-one who might be able to do anything about it gives a stuff. The whole judicial system is there just to do what it’s told. That is ‘corruption’ - not just some guy taking a bribe, although that happens continually, but a whole Potemkin system based on a lack of anything but nepotism, cronyism, intimidation and going along to get along.

 

[Stevicus]

There’s nothing intangible about Soviet-Style corruption. What’s the most corrupt country you’ve lived in? How much time did you spend there, and did you speak the language?

I've lived in the U.S. all of my life, so I can say that this is the most corrupt country I've lived in. Are you saying there are countries which are more corrupt? If so, then I believe you. I'm aware of corruption in other countries, and I've read about the corruption in the former Soviet Union. I'm aware that they had a black market and a gray market where a lot of things were done "under the table," so to speak. Then there are other examples of outright bribery, embezzlement, pilferage, extortion - but oftentimes difficult to prove.

However, I also know that any accusation of corruption or theft/misuse of state property was a pretty serious charge in the Soviet Union.

 

[Tomef]

I've lived in the U.S. all of my life, so I can say that this is the most corrupt country I've lived in. Are you saying there are countries which are more corrupt? If so, then I believe you. I'm aware of corruption in other countries, and I've read about the corruption in the former Soviet Union. I'm aware that they had a black market and a gray market where a lot of things were done "under the table," so to speak. Then there are other examples of outright bribery, embezzlement, pilferage, extortion - but oftentimes difficult to prove.

However, I also know that any accusation of corruption or theft/misuse of state property was a pretty serious charge in the Soviet Union.

lol theft was an everyday thing. Those were serious charges when they were useful - to deal with a political opponent or other undesirable. Don’t confuse the justice system in Russia with one that functions in order to prosecute criminals. Other than low level crime, no important person goes before a court unless it has already decided he or she is ‘guilty’ and what the sentence will be.

The head of security at a carbide factory near where I live, who had the military rank of colonel, told me once that a day he didn’t steal something from work was a day wasted. People didn’t even steal stuff they wanted or needed, they just took things as some way to express something about the crony state and all it’s bull**** that they couldn’t express in any other way.

One thing that is very difficult to understand about Russia/Soviet spaces, something that grew out of efforts in 1920s Stalinist Russia to effectively do away with the whole notion of things being true or not true, is that lying is the currency of state discourse. You have to understand the position of knowing you are being lied to, while knowing you have to make the other person think you believe it, even though he or she knows you don’t, and doesn’t believe it either, because there is no core belief in the idea that a thing can be true, because true is what someone higher up tells you it is. That foundation is what makes it so easy for Putin to mislead gullible foreigners; they simply have no concept of how ‘truth’ is manufactured in Russia.

 

[Stevicus]

It’s a bit more than ‘perks and luxuries’. I farmed here in Romania for several years; that simply wouldn’t have been worth the bother without EU subsidies. And that’s only the surface of it. Soviet states make the West look like a paragon of environmental stewardship, and people in even modern-day Russia - other than the privileged - are treated like simple dross. That attitude spread like a cancer across the satellite states. Here, as one minor example, farm workers used to ‘treat’ the fields with literal poisons - as in directly poisonous to humans, not just carrying possible carcinogens - and had to be admitted to hospital for life-preserving treatments periodically. And that was just for farming. Look into how Soviet troops of the various nations were treated during WWII. They were treated as badly as slaves, and not just during battle. Large numbers of conscripts were literally chained and marched across huge distances. An attrition rate of 40% or more was considered normal - and that’s before they got anywhere near the front line. The rape of female troops by officers was just a normal thing. Officers wrote about it in their memoirs. Those are just two examples out of a whole morass of utter, disastrous incompetency, corruption and malicious idiocy. Corruption is a long way from being difficult to nail down, it’s the difference between getting a decent job or not, getting anything , or not. Putin’s cronies have snapped up top positions in Russian academic institutions, as another example, despite being utter morons. They can simply do that, just do a couple of favours and take the job. That is ruining the few branches of academia not entrenched in parochial thinking still viable over there. But no-one who might be able to do anything about it gives a stuff. The whole judicial system is there just to do what it’s told. That is ‘corruption’ - not just some guy taking a bribe, although that happens continually, but a whole Potemkin system based on a lack of anything but nepotism, cronyism, intimidation and going along to get along.

I can't answer every point you're making here. Many of my relatives were farmers here in the U.S., and I've also done some study into the Soviet agricultural system, and I became familiar with some of the problems they faced. They faced a number of systemic issues which could have and should have been fixed. Many might attribute that to the socialist system in general, although that would suggest they were ideologically misguided and perhaps somewhat foolish, not necessarily corrupt. The corruption isn't written into any ideological treatise or party platform.

I don't know how far we want to delve into the Soviet Union and their history during WW2. That would be a long discussion.

It seems that what has happened in Russia since the fall of the USSR is that they degenerated into some kind of organized crime state. All during the 1990s and early 2000s, stories about the "Russian Mafia," a feared global crime syndicate, were prominent in the news, and it just seemed as if the whole country was facing a massive crime wave from top to bottom. So, it seems that Putin has emerged as some kind of top mobster, the boss of all the bosses in Russia.

 

[Stevicus]

lol theft was an everyday thing. Those were serious charges when they were useful - to deal with a political opponent or other undesirable. Don’t confuse the justice system in Russia with one that functions in order to prosecute criminals. Other than low level crime, no important person goes before a court unless it has already decided he or she is ‘guilty’ and what the sentence will be.

The head of security at a carbide factory near where I live, who had the military rank of colonel, told me once that a day he didn’t steal something from work was a day wasted. People didn’t even steal stuff they wanted or needed, they just took things as some way to express something about the crony state and all it’s bull**** that they couldn’t express in any other way.

One thing that is very difficult to understand about Russia/Soviet spaces, something that grew out of efforts in 1920s Stalinist Russia to effectively do away with the whole notion of things being true or not true, is that lying is the currency of state discourse. You have to understand the position of knowing you are being lied to, while knowing you have to make the other person think you believe it, even though he or she knows you don’t, and doesn’t believe it either, because there is no core belief in the idea that a thing can be true, because true is what someone higher up tells you it is. That foundation is what makes it so easy for Putin to mislead gullible foreigners; they simply have no concept of how ‘truth’ is manufactured in Russia.

Well, I think anyone who has worked in a large corporation or has an inkling of how things work in the US politics would understand the basic concepts of lying. In fact, quite a lot has been written about the concept of doublespeak in language. It's certainly not something the Russians invented in the 1920s. Lying in politics has been a part of human culture and civilization for a long time.

One form of lying which I find to be particularly egregious and insidious is what was revealed during the Asch Conformity Experiments which were done several decades ago. I think that says something about how people are manipulated and cajoled into believing something that even their own eyes tell them isn't true. It's not unlike the "Emperor's New Clothes" gambit.

In practice, what seems more evident is that it really doesn't matter who lies or who tells the truth, but rather, it's a matter of who has the better stuff and the cooler toys.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The end result is a weakened and depleted Russia, along with a severely devastated Ukraine. Russia will end up having to turn to China, while Ukraine will become dependent upon the West.

Neither Russia nor China has any problem with that. China, as the second super power in the new era will be happy to do that.
They are natural allies against NATO.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Simply creating notions within your own head is not the same thing.

The end result is there for all to see.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As much as I predict that the Ukrainians will have to accept some loss of territory eventually, it's up to them to determine whether or not to keep fighting.

The basic thing is that they will have come down from the high horse, acknowledge Russia's concerns and probably need a new equation for occupied territories (Autonomy or something like that). Or otherwise keep fighting with the armament help from NATO. NATO is not going to send their soldiers in the war.

 

[Tomef]

The end result is there for all to see.

What do you think that means?

Confusing knowledge with random ideas triggered by what you ‘see’ is a common habit. What you think you see has nothing to do with what you understand.

 

[Tomef]

Well, I think anyone who has worked in a large corporation or has an inkling of how things work in the US politics would understand the basic concepts of lying. In fact, quite a lot has been written about the concept of doublespeak in language. It's certainly not something the Russians invented in the 1920s. Lying in politics has been a part of human culture and civilization for a long time.

One form of lying which I find to be particularly egregious and insidious is what was revealed during the Asch Conformity Experiments which were done several decades ago. I think that says something about how people are manipulated and cajoled into believing something that even their own eyes tell them isn't true. It's not unlike the "Emperor's New Clothes" gambit.

In practice, what seems more evident is that it really doesn't matter who lies or who tells the truth, but rather, it's a matter of who has the better stuff and the cooler toys.

It’s not really the same thing. Of course there are lies everywhere, the degree and nature of them is different. Does anyone claim ‘there is no crime in the USA. There cannot be crime because it is an ideal society’? If a politician were to claim that, would they be taken seriously? What if your neighbour said that guy is nuts, then at 2am some group of cops kicks in his door and you don’t see him again. Then your boss starts saying things like ‘isn’t it amazing that there is no crime here in the USA’ in meetings. Someone laughs, and is fired, and you don’t see them again either. Some politician you thought was close to the other nut appears on TV confessing to all kinds of bizarre crimes. You notice everyone you know is drinking more. Eventually you find yourself nodding in agreement when you hear things like ‘there’s no crime in the USA’ or ‘we produced …’ (an insanely exaggerated quantity of whatever it is you make). At some point you kind of start to believe it, but your brain can’t deal with that, so you just kind of cut off and try not to be involved, but you find that you have to parrot the same kind of crap yourself if you want to get anywhere. You hear that the Vietnam war was a glorious victory, and that the Vietnamese are filled with gratitude for the benevolent actions of your government. That Nixon was the victim of a vicious plot by evil foreign agents, who have all been ‘disappeared’.

I could go on. But you can look into it yourself. There’s no comparison with the ‘normal’ lying everyone, not just politicians, engages in. Neither are the consequence of not believing the lies, not actively pretending to believe them, anything like the same. Politicians lied over the 2nd Iraq war - would you risk prison or execution for pointing that out? In that kind of environment, people’s brains gradually change. Thinking becomes a survival thing.

 

[Tomef]

I can't answer every point you're making here. Many of my relatives were farmers here in the U.S., and I've also done some study into the Soviet agricultural system, and I became familiar with some of the problems they faced. They faced a number of systemic issues which could have and should have been fixed. Many might attribute that to the socialist system in general, although that would suggest they were ideologically misguided and perhaps somewhat foolish, not necessarily corrupt. The corruption isn't written into any ideological treatise or party platform.

I don't know how far we want to delve into the Soviet Union and their history during WW2. That would be a long discussion.

It seems that what has happened in Russia since the fall of the USSR is that they degenerated into some kind of organized crime state. All during the 1990s and early 2000s, stories about the "Russian Mafia," a feared global crime syndicate, were prominent in the news, and it just seemed as if the whole country was facing a massive crime wave from top to bottom. So, it seems that Putin has emerged as some kind of top mobster, the boss of all the bosses in Russia.

A system is just a thing that happens when people act. Corruption ballooned in the USSR because it was based on multiple levels of patronage from the start. People with any real intellectual capacity were used up, executed, driven mad, or excluded from ‘the system’ - the networks of patronage - early on. No petty ‘boss’ who thinks his word is law wants someone smarter than they are around. From the bottom to the top all relationships were based on favours, the parroting and acceptance of lies that could change from one day to the next, and the need to keep whoever was above you happy. Corruption is a normal part of those kind of arrangements. Some people, like Putin, of limited intellectual capacity, actually bought into it all, really believed it was good and the collective West was some hellhole of exploitation and drug addiction.

People accept what happens around them as normal. There is a lot of writing about this sort of thing, but not in all history books. It depends what you are reading.

The same thing persists in Russia - a couple of years ago, North Korean was the butt of all kinds of ridicule on the ‘patriotic’ TV shows. China was viewed with suspicion. Now NK is a glorious defender of truth and justice, an advanced, modern society (‘look how wide the roads are’ is an actual quote from some dumbass propaganda show. People are fully expected to nod and show appreciation (people do this even in their own homes), and China is everyone’s friend. This sort of thing is so normal in Russia it barely registers. Imagine if everyone you know started talking about how great and honest Trump is tomorrow, and when you questioned it they just gave you blank looks and carried on as if you just didn’t ‘get’ it. If you actually think in that kind of society you soon find yourself on the fringes of it, if not actively being persecuted by the ‘believers’. Look how fast Russia went from relatively normal to a guy being locked up because his daughter drew a picture of Russian aircraft bombing civilians, and school and university students shopping anyone among them who criticises the war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. so at least we can talk about real historical events: Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

"Ukraine joined NATO's 'Partnership for Peace' in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005. In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status, while continuing its co-operation with NATO."
Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

That was OK. They could have continued with that. But Ukrainians were short-sighted. They chose to remove Yanukowych and install Poroshenko. Sort of 'slapped' Russia and immediately got a war in return. We can debate NATO's involvement in the Orange revolution.

 

[Tomef]

Well, I think anyone who has worked in a large corporation or has an inkling of how things work in the US politics would understand the basic concepts of lying. In fact, quite a lot has been written about the concept of doublespeak in language. It's certainly not something the Russians invented in the 1920s. Lying in politics has been a part of human culture and civilization for a long time.

One form of lying which I find to be particularly egregious and insidious is what was revealed during the Asch Conformity Experiments which were done several decades ago. I think that says something about how people are manipulated and cajoled into believing something that even their own eyes tell them isn't true. It's not unlike the "Emperor's New Clothes" gambit.

In practice, what seems more evident is that it really doesn't matter who lies or who tells the truth, but rather, it's a matter of who has the better stuff and the cooler toys.

Another more everyday example - I was talking with a telecoms engineer here years ago. She studied at one of the best universities in the country, during the communist period, but struggled to find a decent job after graduation. The best jobs went to the kids of party affiliated types who barely turned up at classes. So those people, totally incompetent, would end up running the show. That kind of thing was typical across all Soviet-affiliated states. For her, it was just normal, not something she would have thought to bring up if I didn’t ask about it.

 

[Tomef]

"Ukraine joined NATO's 'Partnership for Peace' in 1994 and the NATO-Ukraine Commission in 1997, then agreed the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan in 2002 and entered into NATO's Intensified Dialogue program in 2005. In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status, while continuing its co-operation with NATO."
Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

That was OK. They could have continued with that. But Ukrainians were short-sighted. They chose to remove Yanukowych and install Poroshenko.

You clearly know nothing about any of this, and yet you think your random ideas are correct. Is that how you approach life in general? What other amazing opinions do you have on things you know nothing about?