It is like listening to a samurai disarming a thug....The Muslim sounds like Prince Naseem, not much weight to their statements; yet lots of very repetitive blows.
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How on earth can the Qur'an be considered the perfect book?
- Thread starter serp777
- Start date
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Do you know some brilliant writers 20,000 years ago.
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Yes he knows me, i was around back then; been around here for ages....
Corthos
Great Old One
I even come from The Shire; the place Tolkien came up with the ideas at his auntie's farm, is where i take my dogs walking everyday.Gandalf?!
use_your_brain
Active Member
Who said Quran is the perfect book? btw define perfect first.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Yes he knows me, i was around back then; been around here for ages....
I'm just wondering how they realize that language is a very easy job while believing that modern
humans lived more than 200 thousands of years with no evidence of any writing skills except
for the few thousands of years ago.
Corthos
Great Old One
I would assume for the same reason why we didn't have 3D Printers, Airplanes, Mathematics, Metallurgy, the wheel, or agriculture back then. Knowledge is accumulated and passed down through the ages. Plus, back then life was more "kill or be killed", so there was not much time (or need) to sit down and figure out these things, as far as I understand. =)
Keep in mind that the most technologically advanced civilizations are (generally) the ones that stay put and have time on their hands. There's a reason why we see these things happen when agriculture takes root, and people find they have free time. =)
My apologies for my articulation right now. I'm multitasking at the moment, and I suck at it, heh.
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mojtaba
Active Member
Rumi has a very nice poems about this in Masnavi,
هر که جز ماهی ز آبش سیر شد ** هر که بی‌‌روزی است روزش دیر شد
Except the fish, everyone becomes sated with water; whoever is without daily bread finds the day long.که ز قرآن گر نبیند غیر قال ** این عجب نبود ز اصحاب ضلال
کز شعاع آفتاب پر ز نور ** غیر گرمی می‌نیابد چشم کور
(Saying) that if one see in the Qur’án naught but words, this is not surprising on the part of them that have lost the (right) way.کز شعاع آفتاب پر ز نور ** غیر گرمی می‌نیابد چشم کور
Since the eye of the blind is sensible of naught but heat from the beams of the luminous sun.
حرف قرآن را بدان که ظاهریست ** زیر ظاهر باطنی بس قاهریست
تو ز قرآن ای پسر ظاهر مبین ** دیو آدم را نبیند جز که طین
تو ز قرآن ای پسر ظاهر مبین ** دیو آدم را نبیند جز که طین
Know that the words of the Qur’án have an exterior (sense), and under the exterior (sense) an interior (sense), exceedingly overpowering;
In the Qur’án do not thou, O son, regard (only) the exterior: the Devil regards Adam as naught but clay.
Noble Qur'an teaches us how to live, how to think about world, how is the Hereafter, etc. It is not a hobbie.
If you get tired of Qur'an very quickly, this is because you think reading it is a hobbie.
Because only this Noble Book does not have anything about polytheism what is not rational. I sense the smell of polytheism in the other Books, which is not in the Noble Qur'an. Rather, you only sense the spirit of Monotheism in all verses of Holy Qur'an.
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I doubt written language was around at that time. Even if it were, it would be difficult to pinpoint specific people.
I'm not seeing the relationship.
Archeology, not unsupported written claims, tell us that human beings are hundreds of thousands of years old.
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This is because vast amounts of human history are missing, we know about times after the major Icecaps melting around 10,000 years ago, yet before then a lot has been washed away.
Though there is unexplained megalithic structures; so clearly we're missing history....
Even the idea of Noah's ark, implies mankind had advanced enough to build a big ship like that.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
And can you compare the airplanes of today with the airplanes before 2000 years ago.
Well, no.
You seem to want to imply something, but I really do not know what it would be.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
This is because vast amounts of human history are missing, we know about times after the major Icecaps melting around 10,000 years ago, yet before then a lot has been washed away.
Though there is unexplained megalithic structures; so clearly we're missing history....
Even the idea of Noah's ark, implies mankind had advanced enough to build a big ship like that.
So you believe that there were writers and authors 20 thousands years ago and they were advanced
but the evidences were lost.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
By the grace of God, all Muslims believe Holy Quran is Unique Book which is not only preserved but provides perfect teaching in all era, and it is in full agreement of proven science - especially evolution [guided evolution + creation].
These could be only those people who under the influence of their non-practicing-their-own-religions-friends may think so.
Quranic stories are not only stories; they provide correct versions and also they serve as future prophecies...You are most welcome to study Quran at:
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1
Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) was great as he brought balanced teaching - teaching for all mankind while other religions were limited for certain people - he proved all Prophets were innocent otherwise the corruption had so much found its roots in previous Books that some of Prophets were badly mentioned (obvious intrusion by people) - his prophecies are still being proven -- he mentioned meeting with God and Hereafter -- he established the rights of all people.
Just because Arabic is so curly and and so many dots and is so fancy, it is not the reason it was chosen for Quran. It is the language which has enough properties to carry a perfect message by God.
""
- The perfect pattern of the roots of Arabic words.
- Arabic possesses an extraordinarily high degree of intellectual connotations.
- The system of elementary words in Arabic is most complete and perfect.
- In Arabic idiom a few words convey extensive meanings.
- Arabic has the full capacity for the exposition of all human feelings and thoughts.""
Just as when one is little, one learns from elders / teachers etc how to read and learn then one study by self, similarly when one want to learn religion and its wisdoms, one may learn from teacher:
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
In this link you will see how Holy Quran describes various important questions; from the purpose of life to various aspects of morality and spirituality and meeting with God.
Good Muslims differentiate b/n 'a hobby' and 'studying and practicing Quran'. They study it with love and reverence; in early morning to late night; they repeat its words in each of 5 Daily Prayers and other occasions.....The same Quran asks its followers to move around in land to learn and to have benefits. Each moment of Muslims' life is useful, healthy and fit.
=It should fully explain Living-God (as much human can understand), His attributes and how human can imbibe them at human level.
=The person at which it is revealed, should have all phases of life; weakness, full power, individual and family life.
=The perfect Book should explicitly say it is for all people.
=It should have teaching for all situations.
=It should address all needs of people.
=It should be in agreement with work of God (science).
=Its should continue to show its ever-greenness (e.g. continuation of revelation)
""CHARACTERISTICS OF QURANIC TEACHINGS
ONE special feature that distinguishes the Quran from all other Scriptures is that it deals adequately with all problems arising within the sphere of religion, and by stressing the function of religion it directs attention to its proper sphere and the benefits that may be derived from it. A reader of the Old and the New Testaments or of the Vedas or of the ZendAvesta is left with the impression that somebody appearing at an intermediate stage in the middle of a long drawn-out phenomenon of nature had set out to describe those stages of it of which he had been a witness. That is not the case with the Quran. It expounds the philosophy of creation and all matters connected therewith. It explains why God created the universe and the object of man's creation and the means to be adopted for the achievement of that object. It sheds light on the nature of the Godhead and Its attributes and the manner in which those attributes find their manifestation. In connection with the object of man's creation it expounds the laws on which the running of the universe is based. It points out that for the physical development and evolution of man God has put into force the laws of nature which regulate the physical and mental conditions of man and that one group of angels is entrusted with the enforcement of these laws............""
Page 379 plus @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
This question has 2 answers:
a-Muslims are told not make difference b/n any Prophets since all are from same God. It just happened that they came at various time of religous evolution; each one came to tell God is One with no associate and to teach human rights.
b-From another angle there is difference in vastness and depth of teaching......In this respect Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) is the leader of all Prophets......Prophet Jesus (a.s.) foretold coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/true-christianity-leads-to-islam.html
Son of God was mere idiom. Bible talk about many sons of God; many are mentioned here:
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/biblical/chapter_4.html
Jesus (a.s.) came in Moses' dispensation, how could he be more than Moses (a.s.)
One final answer to our good friend:
Holy Quran uses word Ummah: it does not mean race. A Muslim can be African, Arab, Asian, American, European, Chinese, Russian etc etc....As they believe in same God, Pray in one direction, have same Prophet, and same worships, they get a same colour. There is heavy responsibility on them:
[3;111] You are the best people raised for the good of mankind; you enjoin what is good and forbid evil and believe in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are disobedient.
But there are among them who have forgotten their station....It was prophesied by Prophet of Islam:
The Companion Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) said:
One day we were sitting with Holy Prophet when Surah Jumua [chapter 62] was revealed. I enquired from the Holy Prophet, Who are the people to whom the words, "And among others who have not yet joined them" Salman, the Persian was sitting among us. Upon my repeated asking him the same question the Holy Prophet put his hand on Salman and said;If faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from these would surely find it. [Ref: Book of Hadith, Bukhari]
Going of faith to Pleiades means weakening in practices, the solution was told coming of reformer --- the same reformer was being waited in all religions in latter days. .... According to Ahmadiyya Muslims he has come with titles: Promised Messiah and Mahdi (a.s.). His Khilafat continues his peaceful work, fifth Khalifah (a.t.) in office.....You are very welcome to study all this at
www.alislam.org
You will get answers to your many questions (some you which you raised in your very calculated post here).
Good wishes.
Some might still exist in the Vatican Archives, as they've got things from the Library of Alexandria....Yet clearly most would be gone by now; we've just got traces of references in other ancient texts.
Corthos
Great Old One
Maybe I wasn't clear on my implications, and I apologize for that. I'm typing this on my phone between class and work. XD
Let me ask you this... why don't the plains tribes of native Americans not have a written language, while tribes south of them such as the Aztecs did? Why don't they have advanced stone carving, or metalurgy either? Notice how the plains tribes were nomadic, and don't stay in one place, while the Aztecs had cities and stayed in one place?
When people are nomadic, they don't have time, nor do they tend to care about writing. They have oral traditions.
Keep in mind, human beings didn't have agriculture (thus, a reason to stay in one spot and make permanent settlements) until thousands of years ago. So, the only archeological finds we have of people before then don't really include things indicative with settled peoples, such as written languages or advanced tools.
Why did it take so long before people discovered agriculture? Dunno. =)
Some folks seem to believe it came about because of organized religion, such as we see in the ruins of Gobekli Tepe, while others think it was due to the gradual reliance that people had on wild grains, and less reliance on wild game. There are lots of theories on this... I suggest reading up on it.
Also keep in mind that Neanderthals had existed as a species longer than humans but still never mastered writing or even agriculture, as well. =)
If I'm wrong on things, correct me, folks! I don't have time to double check my sources as its time for class! XD
Toodles for now!
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
It was well known that God challenged people for their own time, Arabs were active at that time
for writing skills and it was true that no one were able to make the same, otherwise why the
challenge was made.
One atheist tried to make one sura at that time and he used the same style of the quran and he
failed, he said “The elephant, what is the elephant, and who shall tell you what is the elephant? It has a poor tail, and a long trunk; and is a trifling part of the creations of thy God!”
http://www.resulullah.org/en/emergence-fake-prophets
His verse was funny and he was called as a liar.
Writing did exist elsewhere. Are you claiming that the Qur'an was revealed for an Arabic-speaking people because it was particularly skilled to preserve it in written form, perhaps?
Considering that I know personally atheists that write far better books than the Qur'an, I fail to see why that would be impressive, nor what it illustrates.
Quite frankly, I am less than certain that this tale is legit. Who is that atheist, and why should he be considered a good parameter for comparison? Did he even exist at all?
Considering how unskilled that verse you mention is, I am half convinced that he either did not exist or was faking it as a way of enhancing the perception of Muhammad and the Qur'an.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
We didn't have planes even 200 years ago, I guess humanity is less than 200 years old.