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How Paul changed the course of Christianity

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Look them up for yourself and tell me what you make of each prophecy.
Thank you for asking this question; God had literally asked me to research nearly the same thing, so you're timing was rewarded.
  • Jeremiah 23:5 - This is at the Coming of the Messianic Age, where the foolish Leaders are removed like we find in Ezekiel 34.
  • Zechariah 3:8 - Yehoshua son of Yoseph was told if he fulfilled what was written, he would become the Messiah at the Messianic Age.
  • Zechariah 6:12 - Yehoshua son of Yehozadek helped build the 2nd temple, and the Name Yehoshua was specific as a Branch from David who shall bring the people into the promised land.
  • Isaiah 4:2 - Is at the coming of the Messianic Age after the cleansing by Fire (Tribulation), where people want the New Name of Christ upon their forehead.
  • Jeremiah 33:15 - Is the promises in affect between the Diaspora (2nd Temple Destruction) until the Messianic Age.
In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You said: Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

You said: Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.


The title "Prince of this world" when applied to Baha'u'llah has nothing to do with John 12:31 or John 14:30.

It means that Baha'u'llah was the Prince of Peace:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace. He set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These Isaiah 9:6-7 prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).
Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.” The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and “hath nothing in Me” signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.

This is in Selections From the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha which I believe you have not read.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.” The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and “hath nothing in Me” signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.

This is in Selections From the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha which I believe you have not read.
Wow, thanks Duane... I knew there had to be something, I just did not know where it was. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer, let's look closely at just ONE point you make. Hopefully, it will shed some light on a lie.

Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.

Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'

The DEVIL or SATAN is CAST OUT because the world, of which he is the PRINCE, is JUDGED.

Confirmation is found in the following verses.
John 14:30. 'Hereafter I [Jesus] will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.'
So the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS NOTHING IN JESUS!!
The two are poles apart!

The great deception of Satan is to make that which is evil appear as light. You are falling for it, my friend! I hope other Baha'is will begin to see the error of their ways.

As additional confirmation, look at John 16: 8-11.
'And when he [the Comforter, or Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I [Jesus] go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

Think about it, Trailblazer. All along you have been keen to quote passages from John's Gospel that demonstrate that Christ came from the Father into the world as light into darkness. The world is a place of darkness.
John 17:14,15. 'I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them [my disciples], because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'

Why would you call the Saviour from darkness the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD?!! This is logic gone mad!
I did not answer this correctly before so I am going to answer it again. Baha'u'llah was the Prince of Peace, but He was also the Prince of this world. My Baha'i friend Duane just posted to me the passage that explains this:

“Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ‘Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty; and ‘hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe that you believe that because you are misinterpreting the Bible.
I do not call anyone a liar. I believe you honestly believe what you do but you do not understand the Bible meaning.
That is all a matter of how you interpret the verses.
All Christians say that they are the ones who are right because of their experience.


Nobody can actually know if they are led by the Holy Spirit. All they can do is believe that they are. All Christians believe that they are but they cannot all be since their beliefs differ. That is logic 101.

I believe my understanding of the Bible is due to the leading of the Holy Spirit. All I can offer as proof of that is a fulfillment of personal prophecy.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The day of resurrection has already come and eternal life has been bestowed upon those who believe in Baha’u’llah.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222


“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison! For verily the reward which such a deed deserveth is immensely beyond and above the estimate of men. Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145

I accept that you believe all of this but I respectfully disagree that your beliefs represent reality. It ALL has to do with YOUR interpretation of the Bible vs. mine. The Bible does not SAY anything; it needs to be interpreted and meanings assigned.

I understand that you believe that but belief does not MAKE anything true.

My spiritual life can be based upon BOTH faith and reason. Faith without reason is blind faith.

I agree that some suffering helps us grow. I do not believe that not knowing Christ leads, ultimately, to an eternal separation from God. That would mean that all Jews and others of other religions who do not believe in Jesus are eternally separated from God. No just and loving God would abide by that.

I was waiting for this, we have the wrong Jesus. Jesus is Jesus. Muslims and Baha’is do not have to believe in the false doctrines of the Church just because Christians do. You do not believe in the Faith of Jesus; you have Faith in Jesus. You believe in what the Church taught you about Jesus, but it is based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible:

Back to the OP:

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing.....

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’

There was never any original sin to be saved from, and that was the first derailment of Christianity. The second derailment was the belief in the bodily resurrection and that consequently the bodies of all Christians will rise from graces when Jesus returns. There is no fixing a religion that has gone that far off the tracks. That is one reason we needed a new religion, to straighten this mess out, one reason among many.

In the parable of the Lord of the Vineyard, Baha’u’llah was the Lord of the vineyard.

(1) According to "God Passes By" the Lord of the Vineyard is a reference to Bahá'u'lláh. (2) The Son is obviously a reference to Jesus Christ and the parable shows that Christ anticipated His own martyrdom. (3) The servants sent by the Lord are God's Prophets. We note that there is not only succession but progression in the degree of the authority they wield. (4) The Father dismisses the tenants who are obviously the religious and secular leaders, and He gives the Vineyard to 'others'.

This final point leads us to our subject, namely that the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh carries with it the dismantling of the old order and the establishment of a new system for the management of the Vineyard. In other words, we see here the two processes of integration and disintegration. These twin processes are also envisaged in the New Testament, as we read in the Revelation of St. John: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"- (New Testament, Revelation 21:1)

We find this theme embedded in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. For example He says on the one hand: "The time for the destruction of the world and its people hath arrived"- (PDC p.1), or: "From two ranks of men power hath been seized: kings and ecclesiastics"- (PDC p.19). At the same time He says: "The whole earth is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits"- (PDC p.3). He then joins the two processes together in one sentence, saying: "Soon will the present day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead"- (WOB p.161).


World Order of Baha'u'llah: Six Talks on the Various Aspects of

I believe I am quite sure that believers in the B man have died.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Wow, thanks Duane... I knew there had to be something, I just did not know where it was. :)

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I believe you should quote correctly. There is nothing about the prince of this world being blessed.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I believe you should quote correctly. There is nothing about the prince of this world being blessed.
We are talking about different translations here.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe I am quite sure that believers in the B man have died.
I am quite sure we are all very much alive.

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

I believe you should quote correctly. There is nothing about the prince of this world being blessed.
I will let Duane handle that... He knows the Bible a lot better than I do. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is an excerpt from the book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer. This section explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. It is important to note that the views expressed by this author reflect his individual perspective and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

There is no link to this book and that is why I had to type up and post this section of the book. It took a long time. I am very interested in getting some feedback on this subject but I might not have much to say. Since I am not at all proficient in the Bible I learn from reading what others post and in discussions with others.

PAUL

This is not the place for an extensive exposition of the dubiousness of the doctrinal structure of the Protestant churches or the defectiveness of the premises from which some churchmen make their judgments. But I would like to explain as concisely as may be how the Baha’is, starting from their belief in the unity of religions, deal with the discrepancy between orthodox Church doctrine and Baha’u’llah’s mission.

It is an indisputable fact that religions have always changed in the course of their long history. Religion, unless it has become a faith of the ‘dead letter’, is a living thing, and to be living means to assimilate, to absorb and incorporate foreign matter. All religions have done this, and the clear source of revelation has become a broad stream made up of many tributaries. In the course of their history all religions have incorporated beliefs and practices alien to them in essence and have thereby departed from their source, the revelation. The religious heritage has been constantly increased, while the revelation has been obscured by human misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

This was also something realized by the leaders of the Reformation, who saw the Catholic Church as a falling away from the essential nature of Christianity, and tried to return to the pure teaching undistorted by human additions and misunderstandings. Such understanding has been the basis for the forming of all Christian sects and indeed for all the reformation in religious history. The question is whether the Reformers of Christianity attained their objective, whether they freed the pure teaching of Christ from its incrustations.

Martin Luther thought he had rediscovered in Paul (Paulo reperi), and made the Pauline doctrine of man’s inability to keep the law (Romans 8:2 et seq.) the centre of Reformation theology. That was a double fatality within Christianity: that in the very early days a spiritual genius such as Paul should have taken God’s Cause out of the hands of the chose heirs and executors, the simple and uneducated apostles, and transformed it into an amalgam of Christian and pagan beliefs; and that Paul, of all men, who is responsible for the shift in emphasis, thus making way for an essential change in the Christian religion, should have been the man whose teaching the Reformation leaders took as guide-line and considered to be the message of Jesus. First then, there was the work of a usurper and the split he caused at the time of Christianity’s origin; second, Luther’s fatal mistake (and the mistake of his Christian successors) in finding the truth where in reality there was error.

That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ.

The most essential and effective alteration of Jesus’s message carried out by Paul was in denying the Law’s power of salvation and replacing the idea of the Covenant, (235) the objective principle of the Jewish religion, with faith in Christ and the atoning power of his sacrificial death; the concrete mosaic law with a mystical doctrine of salvation. Here the Cause of God was robbed of its proper centre and transformed into a mixture of Judaism, Christianity and paganism. The original community recognized the devastating effect of the ‘Apostle to the Gentiles’ and did not watch it passively. The Jerusalem community sent teachers (‘false brethren’, Paul called them) to the new communities founded by Paul; they taught the true doctrine to the believers only just won for the Faith and opposed the doctrine taught by Paul. (236) Paul was such a controversial figure that Tertullian, in his pamphlet attacking Marcion, called him ‘Apostle to the Heretics’, and the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies declared him a false teacher, even indeed the anti-Christ.

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century.

226. Rechtglaubigkert und Ketzerei im altesten Christentum.

227. Die Geschichte des cristlichen Dogmas.

228. Notably Schoeps, Theologie und Geshichte des Judenchristentums and Schonfield, Those Incredible Christians. 229. Acts 15:1 et seq.; also Galatians 2:11. See Stauffer, Kum Kalifat des Jakobus, p. 199.

229. Acts 15:1 et seq.; also Galatians 2:11. See Stauffer, Kum Kalifat des Jakobus, p. 199.

230. Schoeps, Paulus, p. 50.

231. From Paul, we hear nothing, for example, of the Parables, the Sermon on the Mount or the Lord’s Prayer. See Albert Schweitzer, The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle.

232. Schoeps, Paulus, p. 112.

233. ibid., p. 110 ff.

234. The idea that God in his essence was walking on earth is inconceivable also ion Islam (Qur’an, surahs 112; 2:110; 19:91-4; 5:76-8; 4:169, 170) and in the Baha’i Faith: ‘Beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, they God. He is and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer pr equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counselor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.’ ‘Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no way incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men’ (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, XCIV and XX).

235. So far as the idea of the ‘New Covenant’ is at all expressed (e.g., I Corinthians 11:26 or Ephesians 2:11 et seq.), it comes about in the ‘Being in Christ’. This is the most profoundly Christian idea: ‘If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature’ (II Corinthians 5:17) but that is a quite different principle, not a covenant with God.

236. E. Meyer, Ursprung and Anfange des Christentums, vol. III, p. 441; Schonfield, p. 179 ff.

237. Not least because Paul ‘the allegorizing Midrash teacher expressly abolished the whole law of ritual and ceremonial . . . for the new religion’ and because ‘this religion with its belief in a Son of God and the atoning power of his martyr’s death could link up well with the ideas held and spread in the mystery cults of the time --- which was simply not possible from the premises of the Mosaic law and its ethical strictness’ (H.J. Schoeps, Judisch-christliches Religionsgesprach, p. 53).

238. Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, p. 322, p. 322, f.n.1

239. Schonfeld, op. cit., p. 118.

240. ibid., p. 56.

(Continued on next post...)
Do you believe Jesus was resurrected?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your feedback.

Please forgive my ignorance, I am just trying to understand what happened to Christianity as the result of Paul. Unfortunately, I have a paltry background in religious history because i was not raised in any religion and I was not that interested in religion until recently.
The Epistles of Paul (scholarship recognizes 7 as authentic) were from 50-60 AD. They only mention a vision of a risen Jesus and some unknown scripture. They do not mention any ministry, family, anyone meeting Jesus on Earth or stories on Earth.
75-115+AD come the gospels which are anonymous and not eyewitness but they contain all of the stories now in the canon.
Of the current gospels we consider canon Mark was first and the synoptic problem (pages and pages of verbatim Greek copied among gospels) is solved in academia by noting the other 3 gospels were copied from Mark and made changes to the story as they saw fit.

There were however over 40 gospels and during the 2nd century there were many sects all claiming to be the correct version. The 1st actual canon was the Marcionite canon which is forever lost to us and was fully destroyed by the church formed centuries later.

2nd century:
In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.

All we can know about the stories that are now canon is that they often are direct transformations of OT narratives, are highly mythic in the literary style and are a Jewish version of the very popular mystery religions in the region which usually featured a son/daughter of a God who after going through a passion members were baptized into the group for forgiveness of sins and entry into the afterlife. Messianic prophecies, good vs evil, modern concepts of satan, afterlife, end of the world and similar concepts were added into the OT during the Persian occuption and were all parts of Persian religion.
Many of Paul's writings, like predestination were more Persian concepts that were making their way into the updated Judaism and would likely have come from another gospel or writing.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
The Epistles of Paul (scholarship recognizes 7 as authentic) were from 50-60 AD. They only mention a vision of a risen Jesus and some unknown scripture. They do not mention any ministry, family, anyone meeting Jesus on Earth or stories on Earth.
75-115+AD come the gospels which are anonymous and not eyewitness but they contain all of the stories now in the canon..
But how can we be sure that those epistles were real letters written by a first century Paul if we have no earlier record of them than texts dating from the second century?
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
But how can we be sure that those epistles were real letters written by a first century Paul if we have no earlier record of them than texts dating from the second century?

Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia

There are a variety of things used to show the 7 letters are actually from Paul. Inscriptions, mentions from historians and historical knowledge suggest these letters were around at the time they were dated.
But beyond that if the letters were from a later time Paul likely would have known much more of the Jesus story that became popular from the gospels.
No one is sure but historians are fairly sure. The historicity of Paul is less important than the gospels and OT because it's mainly just interpretations of theology by a person. These ideas could have come in the 2nd century and it would not change much.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If Paul's epistles date before the gospels (and probably they do) then they could influence the gospels (particularly gospel of John).
There are a number of differences that lead scholars to believe Paul was not an influence.
The gospels are very different in that rather than letters containing ideas on theology they are deliberate literary works. They use many mythic devices and settings and are drawing source material from the OT and other dying/rising mystery cults.

This article goes over the literary construction of Mark and how they are definitely not historical but deliberate myth writing using common narratives and the OT as a guide.
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
There are a number of differences that lead scholars to believe Paul was not an influence.
The gospels are very different in that rather than letters containing ideas on theology they are deliberate literary works. They use many mythic devices and settings and are drawing source material from the OT and other dying/rising mystery cults.

This article goes over the literary construction of Mark and how they are definitely not historical but deliberate myth writing using common narratives and the OT as a guide.
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark
Partially agree. There are some events in gospels that are probably (based on) real history e.g. baptism of Jesus by John. These wouldn't be included in a complete myth.
 
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