How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[Muffled]

Why?

I believe it is due to the fact that the resurrection proved there was a Spirit outside the body that could re-enter it. For people to receive the Holy Spirit it is necessary for them to believe that it is possible. God doesn't force Himself on people usually.

 

[pearl]

All you can do is comfort them when they cry -- to be with them in their suffering. God does this for me. He is with me with every tear I cry and ever fist that I throw. My loving Father asks me to trust that he knows what's best.

Believing and being conscience of God's presence with us through our suffering and joy, and that we are always in His grace it becomes possible to open our heart to our loving Father.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Baha’u’llah also sacrificed His whole life for all of humanity so everyone who believes in Him would have eternal life of the soul, not of the body.

You cannot say that Jesus sacrificed His life if you also believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead... Do you understand what I mean?

My point in the post to IndigoChild was that you just believe what scriptures SAY that Jesus said and did. Moreover Jesus is not doing anything right now. Jesus is not here, nor is God. You just imagine that He is because the scriptures say so. I guess this is called faith, but I cannot base my beliefs upon faith, I base them upon reason.

You say that the love of God is faithful and true, but you have no proof of that except what is written in scriptures, which were not even written by Jesus Himself.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Baha’is believe the same thing Christians do about the love of God, so I am atypical. I argue with my husband who is a Baha’i constantly about this, because he insists that because Baha’u’llah wrote certain things that must mean God loves us, but I just do not see that love manifested in the world. All I see is suffering. What kind of a God is this that loves and stands by watching? I guess I have been talking to atheists too long but they make some good points.

So you actually believe that your life was revolutionized by your beliefs. I consider that really naïve. Peoples’ lives are what they are for many reasons, many of which are outside of their control. Just believing in something, anything, is not going to change peoples’ lives. I consider that magical thinking. Moreover it is highly illogical because many Christians turned it over to Jesus and they still suffer in their lives; so just because YOU have had certain blessings does not mean if someone else just does what you did, they will have the same blessings bestowed upon them.

This whole belief that Christians have that we must put our faith in Jesus Christ alone is not supported by any biblical scriptures. Jesus said no one came to the Father but by Him but that was only true during His dispensation. Jesus never said no one comes to the Father but by me *for all time.* Christians just interpreted the verse to mean that it applied to all time, but now we know that other Manifestations of God have come since Jesus so we know people can come to God via Muhammad and Baha’u’llah.

I do appreciate that you are a very sincere person who cares about bringing people to Jesus, but I already have Jesus and I also have Baha’u’llah. There is no *reason* I cannot have both.

By the way, I listen to Christian radio for three hours a day while riding my bike to work and back so I am really with the Spirit.... I certainly understand why you love Jesus, I love Him too. I am just not so sure about God.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Son translates to me as --- Jesus so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself for all of humanity. It was Jesus who sacrificed, not God. God does not need a Son because God does not have needs, God is fully self-sufficient.

Trailblazer, you say,
Baha’u’llah also sacrificed His whole life for all of humanity so everyone who believes in Him would have eternal life of the soul, not of the body.

How can Baha'u'llah, a man born of flesh and blood, give eternal life to those who believe in him? Baha'u'llah is in the grave. His body has decayed and his soul awaits the day of resurrection. How can he possibly give eternal life to others? Is he God?!

Another point you make.
You cannot say that Jesus sacrificed His life if you also believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead... Do you understand what I mean?

No, I don't accept this argument. Jesus gave his life for all who would receive him as a friend. Jesus was crucified and the spirit of God left him when sin was borne in his body. His soul cried out, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' God does not abide sin!

Jesus died; his body was laid in a tomb and his soul descended into the grave. Three days and nights later, his soul was reunited with a resurrected body, and he spent the next forty days showing himself alive to his disciples.

Resurrection would not have taken place had God not been pleased with the sacrifice. The reason God was pleased was because the sacrifice was perfect and without blemish.

And you say,
My point in the post to IndigoChild was that you just believe what scriptures SAY that Jesus said and did. Moreover Jesus is not doing anything right now. Jesus is not here, nor is God. You just imagine that He is because the scriptures say so. I guess this is called faith, but I cannot base my beliefs upon faith, I base them upon reason.

True. I believe what scripture says.
But I know, subjectively, that Jesus Christ is alive now because his Spirit dwells in me! I know that I, as a man, cannot heal people of sickness and disability, but through prayer I have seen numerous people healed. I do not claim this healing as a personal power. I believe God is faithful in his promises and his Word.

Your spiritual life cannot be based on reason. It is has to be based on faith, because faith 'worketh by love'.

So you actually believe that your life was revolutionized by your beliefs. I consider that really naïve. Peoples’ lives are what they are for many reasons, many of which are outside of their control. Just believing in something, anything, is not going to change peoples’ lives. I consider that magical thinking. Moreover it is highly illogical because many Christians turned it over to Jesus and they still suffer in their lives; so just because YOU have had certain blessings does not mean if someone else just does what you did, they will have the same blessings bestowed upon them.

Paul suffered in many ways during his ministry, yet he knew that God in Christ was always abiding in him. As IndigoChild says, certain types of suffering can help us grow, but the suffering of not knowing Christ is, IMO, the worst of all suffering. It leads, ultimately, to an eternal separation from God.

I do appreciate that you are a very sincere person who cares about bringing people to Jesus, but I already have Jesus and I also have Baha’u’llah. There is no *reason* I cannot have both.
The Jesus that Muslims and Baha'is claim to know is NOT the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. Both Muslims and Bahai's deny essential aspects of his life; specifically his death and resurrection. And you cannot really know Jesus until you know him in 'spirit and truth' ie. through the Holy Spirit, which was given after his death and resurrection.

And in the last paragraph you say,
God so loved the world that He gave His only Son translates to me as --- Jesus so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself for all of humanity. It was Jesus who sacrificed, not God. God does not need a Son because God does not have needs, God is fully self-sufficient

God does have a desire to express love. God is love. His expression of love towards mankind was to send his Son to save the world from sin and death.
Luke 20:9-18. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

 

[Trailblazer]

If having nightmares again, cannabis can blanket our dreams, whilst still allowing us to sleep properly.

In my opinion.

Cannabis is legal in my state now, but I usually take xanax when it gets really bad. When it is bad I can get to sleep but then I wake up early and do not get enough sleep. It's bad now. Maybe I had better take some xanax tonight. I am so tired now I can barely think...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Cannabis is legal in my state now, but I usually take xanax when it gets really bad. When it is bad I can get to sleep but then I wake up early and do not get enough sleep. It's bad now. Maybe I had better take some xanax tonight. I am so tired now I can barely think...

I had a bad experience where I was on a perscription medication that had sedative effects. It did get me to sleep, but my sleep was not naturally deep -- it was even what you would call mildly disturbed. The long and short of it is that I would walk in my sleep -- I'd wake up in the mornings and my laptop would be open, and the browser on a website for adopting teenagers. LOL Well, one day when I was sleepwalking, I got behind the wheel of a car... No one was hurt, baruch Hashem, but what if someone had been, or had been killed? I stay away from drugs that make you sleepy.

 

[Trailblazer]

I had a bad experience where I was on a perscription medication that had sedative effects. It did get me to sleep, but my sleep was not naturally deep -- it was even what you would call mildly disturbed. The long and short of it is that I would walk in my sleep -- I'd wake up in the mornings and my laptop would be open, and the browser on a website for adopting teenagers. LOL Well, one day when I was sleepwalking, I got behind the wheel of a car... No one was hurt, baruch Hashem, but what if someone had been, or had been killed? I stay away from drugs that make you sleepy.

Thanks. I know drugs can be dangerous so I am very cautious. I only take xanax in a very small dose and I am familiar with its effects. That sounds like quite a frightening experience you had.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there is no Biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is sent by a manifestation.

I believe that you believe that because you are misinterpreting the Bible.

I believe you are stating that I am a liar. If you don't believe the testimony of God then you are left with your own disfunctional thinking.

I do not call anyone a liar. I believe you honestly believe what you do but you do not understand the Bible meaning.

I believe Jesus says it can.

That is all a matter of how you interpret the verses.

I believe my experience is fairly rare but many people will say things that are from their own philosophy so of course that will be different.

All Christians say that they are the ones who are right because of their experience.

It would be sound if your premise were true but you premise is not true. If everyone who had the Holy Spirit were led by the Spirit as I am then we would all say the same thing but not everyone who has the Holy Spirit is led by the Spirit. My pastor can point to a time when God called Him to be a pastor. He was being led by the Holy Spirit but we disagree on many things because most of the time he is leaning on his education and his own understanding.

Nobody can actually know if they are led by the Holy Spirit. All they can do is believe that they are. All Christians believe that they are but they cannot all be since their beliefs differ. That is logic 101.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Baha’u’llah also sacrificed His whole life for all of humanity so everyone who believes in Him would have eternal life of the soul, not of the body.

Redemptionsong said: How can Baha'u'llah, a man born of flesh and blood, give eternal life to those who believe in him? Baha'u'llah is in the grave. His body has decayed and his soul awaits the day of resurrection. How can he possibly give eternal life to others? Is he God?!

The day of resurrection has already come and eternal life has been bestowed upon those who believe in Baha’u’llah.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison! For verily the reward which such a deed deserveth is immensely beyond and above the estimate of men. Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145​

Trailblazer said: You cannot say that Jesus sacrificed His life if you also believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead... Do you understand what I mean?

Redemptionsong said: No, I don't accept this argument. Jesus gave his life for all who would receive him as a friend. Jesus was crucified and the spirit of God left him when sin was borne in his body. His soul cried out, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' God does not abide sin!

Jesus died; his body was laid in a tomb and his soul descended into the grave. Three days and nights later, his soul was reunited with a resurrected body, and he spent the next forty days showing himself alive to his disciples.

Resurrection would not have taken place had God not been pleased with the sacrifice. The reason God was pleased was because the sacrifice was perfect and without blemish.

I accept that you believe all of this but I respectfully disagree that your beliefs represent reality. It ALL has to do with YOUR interpretation of the Bible vs. mine. The Bible does not SAY anything; it needs to be interpreted and meanings assigned.

Trailblazer said: My point in the post to IndigoChild was that you just believe what scriptures SAY that Jesus said and did. Moreover Jesus is not doing anything right now. Jesus is not here, nor is God. You just imagine that He is because the scriptures say so. I guess this is called faith, but I cannot base my beliefs upon faith, I base them upon reason.

Redemptionsong said: True. I believe what scripture says.
But I know, subjectively, that Jesus Christ is alive now because his Spirit dwells in me! I know that I, as a man, cannot heal people of sickness and disability, but through prayer I have seen numerous people healed. I do not claim this healing as a personal power. I believe God is faithful in his promises and his Word.

Your spiritual life cannot be based on reason. It is has to be based on faith, because faith 'worketh by love'.

I understand that you believe that but belief does not MAKE anything true.

My spiritual life can be based upon BOTH faith and reason. Faith without reason is blind faith.

Trailblazer said: So you actually believe that your life was revolutionized by your beliefs. I consider that really naïve. Peoples’ lives are what they are for many reasons, many of which are outside of their control. Just believing in something, anything, is not going to change peoples’ lives. I consider that magical thinking. Moreover it is highly illogical because many Christians turned it over to Jesus and they still suffer in their lives; so just because YOU have had certain blessings does not mean if someone else just does what you did, they will have the same blessings bestowed upon them.

Redemptionsong said: Paul suffered in many ways during his ministry, yet he knew that God in Christ was always abiding in him. As IndigoChild says, certain types of suffering can help us grow, but the suffering of not knowing Christ is, IMO, the worst of all suffering. It leads, ultimately, to an eternal separation from God.

I agree that some suffering helps us grow. I do not believe that not knowing Christ leads, ultimately, to an eternal separation from God. That would mean that all Jews and others of other religions who do not believe in Jesus are eternally separated from God. No just and loving God would abide by that.

Trailblazer said: I do appreciate that you are a very sincere person who cares about bringing people to Jesus, but I already have Jesus and I also have Baha’u’llah. There is no *reason* I cannot have both.

Redemptionsong said: The Jesus that Muslims and Baha'is claim to know is NOT the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. Both Muslims and Bahai's deny essential aspects of his life; specifically his death and resurrection. And you cannot really know Jesus until you know him in 'spirit and truth' ie. through the Holy Spirit, which was given after his death and resurrection.

I was waiting for this, we have the wrong Jesus. Jesus is Jesus. Muslims and Baha’is do not have to believe in the false doctrines of the Church just because Christians do. You do not believe in the Faith of Jesus; you have Faith in Jesus. You believe in what the Church taught you about Jesus, but it is based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible:

Back to the OP:

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing.....

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’​

Trailblazer said: God so loved the world that He gave His only Son translates to me as --- Jesus so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself for all of humanity. It was Jesus who sacrificed, not God. God does not need a Son because God does not have needs, God is fully self-sufficient.

Redemptionsong said: God does have a desire to express love. God is love. His expression of love towards mankind was to send his Son to save the world from sin and death.

There was never any original sin to be saved from, and that was the first derailment of Christianity. The second derailment was the belief in the bodily resurrection and that consequently the bodies of all Christians will rise from graces when Jesus returns. There is no fixing a religion that has gone that far off the tracks. That is one reason we needed a new religion, to straighten this mess out, one reason among many.

Luke 20:9-18. PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.

In the parable of the Lord of the Vineyard, Baha’u’llah was the Lord of the vineyard.

(1) According to "God Passes By" the Lord of the Vineyard is a reference to Bahá'u'lláh. (2) The Son is obviously a reference to Jesus Christ and the parable shows that Christ anticipated His own martyrdom. (3) The servants sent by the Lord are God's Prophets. We note that there is not only succession but progression in the degree of the authority they wield. (4) The Father dismisses the tenants who are obviously the religious and secular leaders, and He gives the Vineyard to 'others'.

This final point leads us to our subject, namely that the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh carries with it the dismantling of the old order and the establishment of a new system for the management of the Vineyard. In other words, we see here the two processes of integration and disintegration. These twin processes are also envisaged in the New Testament, as we read in the Revelation of St. John: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"- (New Testament, Revelation 21:1)

We find this theme embedded in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. For example He says on the one hand: "The time for the destruction of the world and its people hath arrived"- (PDC p.1), or: "From two ranks of men power hath been seized: kings and ecclesiastics"- (PDC p.19). At the same time He says: "The whole earth is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits"- (PDC p.3). He then joins the two processes together in one sentence, saying: "Soon will the present day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead"- (WOB p.161).

World Order of Baha'u'llah: Six Talks on the Various Aspects of​

 

[Redemptionsong]

The day of resurrection has already come and eternal life has been bestowed upon those who believe in Baha’u’llah.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222

“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison! For verily the reward which such a deed deserveth is immensely beyond and above the estimate of men. Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145​

I accept that you believe all of this but I respectfully disagree that your beliefs represent reality. It ALL has to do with YOUR interpretation of the Bible vs. mine. The Bible does not SAY anything; it needs to be interpreted and meanings assigned.

I understand that you believe that but belief does not MAKE anything true.

My spiritual life can be based upon BOTH faith and reason. Faith without reason is blind faith.

I agree that some suffering helps us grow. I do not believe that not knowing Christ leads, ultimately, to an eternal separation from God. That would mean that all Jews and others of other religions who do not believe in Jesus are eternally separated from God. No just and loving God would abide by that.

I was waiting for this, we have the wrong Jesus. Jesus is Jesus. Muslims and Baha’is do not have to believe in the false doctrines of the Church just because Christians do. You do not believe in the Faith of Jesus; you have Faith in Jesus. You believe in what the Church taught you about Jesus, but it is based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible:

Back to the OP:

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing.....

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’​

There was never any original sin to be saved from, and that was the first derailment of Christianity. The second derailment was the belief in the bodily resurrection and that consequently the bodies of all Christians will rise from graces when Jesus returns. There is no fixing a religion that has gone that far off the tracks. That is one reason we needed a new religion, to straighten this mess out, one reason among many.

In the parable of the Lord of the Vineyard, Baha’u’llah was the Lord of the vineyard.

(1) According to "God Passes By" the Lord of the Vineyard is a reference to Bahá'u'lláh. (2) The Son is obviously a reference to Jesus Christ and the parable shows that Christ anticipated His own martyrdom. (3) The servants sent by the Lord are God's Prophets. We note that there is not only succession but progression in the degree of the authority they wield. (4) The Father dismisses the tenants who are obviously the religious and secular leaders, and He gives the Vineyard to 'others'.

This final point leads us to our subject, namely that the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh carries with it the dismantling of the old order and the establishment of a new system for the management of the Vineyard. In other words, we see here the two processes of integration and disintegration. These twin processes are also envisaged in the New Testament, as we read in the Revelation of St. John: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"- (New Testament, Revelation 21:1)

We find this theme embedded in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh Himself. For example He says on the one hand: "The time for the destruction of the world and its people hath arrived"- (PDC p.1), or: "From two ranks of men power hath been seized: kings and ecclesiastics"- (PDC p.19). At the same time He says: "The whole earth is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits"- (PDC p.3). He then joins the two processes together in one sentence, saying: "Soon will the present day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead"- (WOB p.161).

World Order of Baha'u'llah: Six Talks on the Various Aspects of​

It seems that the pit you dig gets deeper and deeper!

Now you are explicitly claiming that Baha'u'llah is God! You claim he is the one who plants the vineyard. In the parable, this same Planter says, I will send my beloved Son. How can you possibly deny that He who speaks here is God! Even the Jews listening to the parable end by saying, God forbid! They know that the parable is referring to God, his prophets, and His Son.

You also say this:
That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Yet, there are a number of stories in both Old and New Testaments that refer to the raising of the dead. I understand that these individuals are not raised to eternal life, but they are raised back to this temporal life from a state of decomposition. For example, the story of Elijah and the widow's son, 1 Kings 17:17-23; and the story of Lazarus, John 11:32-46. It the latter case, Martha says to Jesus, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. Yet Jesus raises him up bodily, saying, Loose him, and let him go.

If raising the dead to temporal life is possible, why should it not be possible to raise the dead to eternal life?

Philippians 3:21 states the case clearly:
'Who [the Lord Jesus Christ] shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.'

Conclusion: OUR VILE BODIES WILL BE CHANGED! Resurrection of the body, and a change from corruption to incorruption, is God's promise.

 

[wizanda]

Now you are explicitly claiming that Baha'u'llah is God!

Remove the 'you' from the sentence, Trailblazer is repeating what Baha'ullah stated; he changed his name to the "Glory of God" claiming himself to be the fulfillment of the father coming to earth...

Which unfortunately is stupid; if we understand Yeshua's father the God Most High (Luke 1:32) is like a CPU that processes reality, it is formless and beyond the physical dimensions.

When the God Most High comes here, the reality will roll up like a scroll, the whole dynamics of reality will completely disintegrate, and then be recreated, according to many religious texts.

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Remove the 'you' from the sentence, Trailblazer is repeating what Baha'ullah stated; he changed his name to the "Glory of God" claiming himself to be the fulfillment of the father coming to earth...

Which unfortunately is stupid; if we understand Yeshua's father the God Most High (Luke 1:32) is like a CPU that processes reality, it is formless and beyond the physical dimensions.

When the God Most High comes here, the reality will roll up like a scroll, the whole dynamics of reality will completely disintegrate, and then be recreated, according to many religious texts.

In my opinion.

Well, I guess Baha'u'llah demonstrates how deceptive some writers, and writings, can be. We all need markers to judge truth by, and, in scripture, I believe we have that standard.

Psalm 119:89. 'For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.'
Isaiah 40:8. 'The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.'

IMO, God chose a people to deliver his Word to the world. We should pay attention to the scripture that has been delivered by Israelite prophets. Adding to, and subtracting from, that Word brings deception.

Paul says, 'For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.' [1 Thessalonians 2:13]

 

[Trailblazer]

When the God Most High comes here, the reality will roll up like a scroll, the whole dynamics of reality will completely disintegrate, and then be recreated, according to many religious texts.

That is exactly what is happening right now, right before your very eyes, in case you do not watch any news. It has been going on for some time, since the latter half of the 19th century, but its pace has been stepped up recently.

“A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 3

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4​

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems that the pit you dig gets deeper and deeper!

Now you are explicitly claiming that Baha'u'llah is God! You claim he is the one who plants the vineyard. In the parable, this same Planter says, I will send my beloved Son. How can you possibly deny that He who speaks here is God! Even the Jews listening to the parable end by saying, God forbid! They know that the parable is referring to God, his prophets, and His Son.

No, I am not claiming that. This article explains what we are claiming about Baha’u’llah:

Did Baha’u’llah Fulfill the Prophecies of Jesus?

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, fulfilled the Christian prophecies.

How does Baha’u’llah fulfill the prophecies of Jesus? Here’s Shoghi Effendi’s answer, in a nutshell:

To [Baha’u’llah] Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. – Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 95.

We see five messianic titles here, all of them prophesied by Jesus Christ in the Bible:

1. The “Prince of this world.”
2. The “Comforter.”
3. The “Spirit of Truth.”
4. The “Lord of the Vineyard.”
5. The “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father.”

We’ve already discussed Baha’u’llah’s identification as the “Comforter” and the “Spirit of Truth” in this series about prophecy. Now let’s consider Shoghi Effendi’s claim that Baha’u’llah fulfills Christ’s prophecy as the “Lord of the Vineyard.”

The Gospels include fifty or so parables: “All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them.” – Matthew 13:34. Parables—short, simple stories that teach moral lessons—appear in all scripture.

Remarkably, though, Christ’s parables have no overt religious or theological elements. In fact, God appears only in one of them. Let’s take a brief look at the parable of the Lord of the Vineyard, known as the “Parable of the Tenants”—also known as the “Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen” (Mark 12.1–12; Matthew 21.33–45; Luke 20.9–19; Gospel of Thomas 65–66):

And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.’

And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. – Mark 12:1–9.

Jesus’s parable is based, in part, on the “The Song of the Vineyard” in Isaiah 5:1–7. What follows is the present writer’s brief interpretation of this parable, purely an individual exegesis, not an official Baha’i interpretation:

The “certain man” in verse 1 refers to “the lord of the vineyard” in verse 9. Here, this is generally taken by Biblical scholars to mean God, the Creator of the vineyard, which symbolizes the world at large. Although many Christian interpreters have identified Israel as the vineyard, there are other possible interpretations, such as the kingdom of God, the people of God, or the covenantal relationship between God and His people.

The “husbandmen”—the cultivators of the vineyard—are those who are in charge of the vineyard, i.e. the religious leaders of each prophetic day and age.

In verse 2, the Lord of the vineyard sends a “servant” to “receive” the “fruit of the vineyard.” Here, “fruit” is a common Biblical metaphor for good works and righteous deeds.

The “servant,” being sent by God, is widely understood to be a prophet of God. Having been caught, beaten, and sent away (verse 3), God then sends “another” servant, who is stoned, “wounded” and sent away, “shamefully handled” (verse 4). But then God sends another prophet, who is also “killed,” followed by “many others,” by prophets who suffer similar fates, after the people or their religious leaders end up “beating some, and killing some.”

As a last resort, God then sends his “well beloved . . . son,” who was the “last” prophet to be “sent” to the world (verse 6), but God’s son, understood by most Christian interpreters to be Jesus Christ, is “killed” and “cast … out of the vineyard” (verse 8).

Thereupon, the “Lord of the vineyard” will himself appear and “will give the vineyard unto others” (verse 9). Interpreted literally, this would, of course, mean that God would somehow come to the vineyard in person. Baha’is reject this literal interpretation, however, since God is not a “person” (even though we experience God personally) and, in any case, is infinite and therefore cannot appear in a finite place, bound by time and space. Instead, God will appear by proxy—by sending another representative. This time, Baha’is believe, God’s representative is Baha’u’llah.

This interpretation, in its general contours, appears to be confirmed by the great Baha’i scholar Mirza Abu’l-Fadl:

That is, the Sovereign of the universe and Creator of the peoples brought the world into existence, adorning it with the most perfect form, and set the human race over it as a tenant. In every age He appointed one of His servants as a messenger to inquire into the welfare of the creation. But the people, ignorant wrongdoers, refused to recognize or accept him, greeting him with derision and haughtiness. Finally, He sent the perfect, divine Word in the name of Sonship, and they slew him as well. Naturally, the Lord of all horizons on the Day of Encounter will manifest Himself [as Baha’u’llah], and deliver the world, the divine vineyard, over to the just and trustworthy. – Mirza Abu’l-Faḍl Gulpaygani, “Why Moses Could Not See God,” Letters & Essays, 1886–1913, pp. 24–25.

As “Lord of the Vineyard,” Baha’u’llah proclaimed that Mt. Carmel in Israel—the site of the Baha’i World Center—would become God’s Vineyard:

Carmel, in the Book of God, hath been designated as the Hill of God, and His Vineyard. It is here that, by the grace of the Lord of Revelation, the Tabernacle of Glory hath been raised. Happy are they that attain thereunto; happy they that set their faces towards it. – Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 145.

The views expressed in our content reflect individual perspectives and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

Did Baha’u’llah Fulfill the Prophecies of Jesus?

PART 41 IN SERIES: Figuring Out Prophecy

You also say this:
That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Yet, there are a number of stories in both Old and New Testaments that refer to the raising of the dead. I understand that these individuals are not raised to eternal life, but they are raised back to this temporal life from a state of decomposition. For example, the story of Elijah and the widow's son, 1 Kings 17:17-23; and the story of Lazarus, John 11:32-46. It the latter case, Martha says to Jesus, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. Yet Jesus raises him up bodily, saying, Loose him, and let him go.

No, absolutely not. No physical body was ever raised back to this temporal life from a state of decomposition. All of those verses refer to being raised back to life from spiritual death.

If raising the dead to temporal life is possible, why should it not be possible to raise the dead to eternal life?

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

So raising the dead to eternal life means raising the spiritually dead to spiritual life, such that they are near to God.

Philippians 3:21 states the case clearly:
'Who [the Lord Jesus Christ] shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.'

Conclusion: OUR VILE BODIES WILL BE CHANGED! Resurrection of the body, and a change from corruption to incorruption, is God's promise.

That is not about changing your physical body into another physical body. After your physical body dies it will remain dead but your soul will leave the body and take on another form, a spiritual body.... So you will indeed get a new body!

 

[wizanda]

We see five messianic titles here, all of them prophesied by Jesus Christ in the Bible:

1. The “Prince of this world.”
2. The “Comforter.”
3. The “Spirit of Truth.”
4. The “Lord of the Vineyard.”
5. The “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father.”

1. The Prince of Peace comes with his garments rolled in blood (Isaiah 9:5), as he has just crushed the Winepress (Isaiah 63:1-6), which happens in Isaiah 34 at the Lake of Fire.
   
2. The Comforter is made up in the false Gospel of John.
   
3. The Spirit of Truth is made up in the false Gospel of John.
4. The Lord of the Vineyard in the Parable of the Wicked-Husbandmen is God, the CPU that creates reality (Yeshua's Father), and it wipes out those who claim to have murdered his son by Fire.
5. The Son of Man coming with the Glory of His Father means, he comes with Angels, and brings Heaven to Earth (Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).

It is not Heaven on Earth yet, Evils have not been removed, and thus Baha'u'llah can not be the Messiah or Yeshua's father (the Source of Reality).

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, I am not claiming that. This article explains what we are claiming about Baha’u’llah:

Did Baha’u’llah Fulfill the Prophecies of Jesus?

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, fulfilled the Christian prophecies.

How does Baha’u’llah fulfill the prophecies of Jesus? Here’s Shoghi Effendi’s answer, in a nutshell:

To [Baha’u’llah] Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. – Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 95.

We see five messianic titles here, all of them prophesied by Jesus Christ in the Bible:

1. The “Prince of this world.”
2. The “Comforter.”
3. The “Spirit of Truth.”
4. The “Lord of the Vineyard.”
5. The “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father.”

We’ve already discussed Baha’u’llah’s identification as the “Comforter” and the “Spirit of Truth” in this series about prophecy. Now let’s consider Shoghi Effendi’s claim that Baha’u’llah fulfills Christ’s prophecy as the “Lord of the Vineyard.”

The Gospels include fifty or so parables: “All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them.” – Matthew 13:34. Parables—short, simple stories that teach moral lessons—appear in all scripture.

Remarkably, though, Christ’s parables have no overt religious or theological elements. In fact, God appears only in one of them. Let’s take a brief look at the parable of the Lord of the Vineyard, known as the “Parable of the Tenants”—also known as the “Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen” (Mark 12.1–12; Matthew 21.33–45; Luke 20.9–19; Gospel of Thomas 65–66):

And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.’

And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. – Mark 12:1–9.

Jesus’s parable is based, in part, on the “The Song of the Vineyard” in Isaiah 5:1–7. What follows is the present writer’s brief interpretation of this parable, purely an individual exegesis, not an official Baha’i interpretation:

The “certain man” in verse 1 refers to “the lord of the vineyard” in verse 9. Here, this is generally taken by Biblical scholars to mean God, the Creator of the vineyard, which symbolizes the world at large. Although many Christian interpreters have identified Israel as the vineyard, there are other possible interpretations, such as the kingdom of God, the people of God, or the covenantal relationship between God and His people.

The “husbandmen”—the cultivators of the vineyard—are those who are in charge of the vineyard, i.e. the religious leaders of each prophetic day and age.

In verse 2, the Lord of the vineyard sends a “servant” to “receive” the “fruit of the vineyard.” Here, “fruit” is a common Biblical metaphor for good works and righteous deeds.

The “servant,” being sent by God, is widely understood to be a prophet of God. Having been caught, beaten, and sent away (verse 3), God then sends “another” servant, who is stoned, “wounded” and sent away, “shamefully handled” (verse 4). But then God sends another prophet, who is also “killed,” followed by “many others,” by prophets who suffer similar fates, after the people or their religious leaders end up “beating some, and killing some.”

As a last resort, God then sends his “well beloved . . . son,” who was the “last” prophet to be “sent” to the world (verse 6), but God’s son, understood by most Christian interpreters to be Jesus Christ, is “killed” and “cast … out of the vineyard” (verse 8).

Thereupon, the “Lord of the vineyard” will himself appear and “will give the vineyard unto others” (verse 9). Interpreted literally, this would, of course, mean that God would somehow come to the vineyard in person. Baha’is reject this literal interpretation, however, since God is not a “person” (even though we experience God personally) and, in any case, is infinite and therefore cannot appear in a finite place, bound by time and space. Instead, God will appear by proxy—by sending another representative. This time, Baha’is believe, God’s representative is Baha’u’llah.

This interpretation, in its general contours, appears to be confirmed by the great Baha’i scholar Mirza Abu’l-Fadl:

That is, the Sovereign of the universe and Creator of the peoples brought the world into existence, adorning it with the most perfect form, and set the human race over it as a tenant. In every age He appointed one of His servants as a messenger to inquire into the welfare of the creation. But the people, ignorant wrongdoers, refused to recognize or accept him, greeting him with derision and haughtiness. Finally, He sent the perfect, divine Word in the name of Sonship, and they slew him as well. Naturally, the Lord of all horizons on the Day of Encounter will manifest Himself [as Baha’u’llah], and deliver the world, the divine vineyard, over to the just and trustworthy. – Mirza Abu’l-Faḍl Gulpaygani, “Why Moses Could Not See God,” Letters & Essays, 1886–1913, pp. 24–25.

As “Lord of the Vineyard,” Baha’u’llah proclaimed that Mt. Carmel in Israel—the site of the Baha’i World Center—would become God’s Vineyard:

Carmel, in the Book of God, hath been designated as the Hill of God, and His Vineyard. It is here that, by the grace of the Lord of Revelation, the Tabernacle of Glory hath been raised. Happy are they that attain thereunto; happy they that set their faces towards it. – Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 145.

The views expressed in our content reflect individual perspectives and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

Did Baha’u’llah Fulfill the Prophecies of Jesus?

PART 41 IN SERIES: Figuring Out Prophecy

No, absolutely not. No physical body was ever raised back to this temporal life from a state of decomposition. All of those verses refer to being raised back to life from spiritual death.

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from knowing Him and believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

So raising the dead to eternal life means raising the spiritually dead to spiritual life, such that they are near to God.

That is not about changing your physical body into another physical body. After your physical body dies it will remain dead but your soul will leave the body and take on another form, a spiritual body.... So you will indeed get a new body!

Trailblazer, let's look closely at just ONE point you make. Hopefully, it will shed some light on a lie.

Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.

Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'

The DEVIL or SATAN is CAST OUT because the world, of which he is the PRINCE, is JUDGED.

Confirmation is found in the following verses.
John 14:30. 'Hereafter I [Jesus] will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.'
So the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS NOTHING IN JESUS!!
The two are poles apart!

The great deception of Satan is to make that which is evil appear as light. You are falling for it, my friend! I hope other Baha'is will begin to see the error of their ways.

As additional confirmation, look at John 16: 8-11.
'And when he [the Comforter, or Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I [Jesus] go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

Think about it, Trailblazer. All along you have been keen to quote passages from John's Gospel that demonstrate that Christ came from the Father into the world as light into darkness. The world is a place of darkness.
John 17:14,15. 'I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them [my disciples], because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'

Why would you call the Saviour from darkness the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD?!! This is logic gone mad!

 

[Redemptionsong]

1. The Prince of Peace comes with his garments rolled in blood (Isaiah 9:5), as he has just crushed the Winepress (Isaiah 63:1-6), which happens in Isaiah 34 at the Lake of Fire.
   
2. The Comforter is made up in the false Gospel of John.
   
3. The Spirit of Truth is made up in the false Gospel of John.
4. The Lord of the Vineyard in the Parable of the Wicked-Husbandmen is God, the CPU that creates reality (Yeshua's Father), and it wipes out those who claim to have murdered his son by Fire.
5. The Son of Man coming with the Glory of His Father means, he comes with Angels, and brings Heaven to Earth (Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26).

It is not Heaven on Earth yet, Evils have not been removed, and thus Baha'u'llah can not be the Messiah or Yeshua's father (the Source of Reality).

In my opinion.

Wizanda, it troubles me that you keep referring to 'the false Gospel of John'.

Where do you get the idea that John's Gospel is false? Is it just John's Gospel that you dismiss; or do you lump other books of the New Testament into the same category?

 

[wizanda]

Where do you get the idea that John's Gospel is false?

Think the clearest point is the Gospel of John sounds nothing like Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels... Here & Here is a List of about 30+ points.

Is it just John's Gospel that you dismiss; or do you lump other books of the New Testament into the same category?

Basically Simon was misled from the offset, which is why Yeshua called him the Stone (Peter - Petros), as metaphorically that caused the crops not to be planted properly.

Simon & Paul created Christianity on a Gospel about jesus's death; the Synoptic Gospels teach a Living Gospel.

The Gospel of John is Pharisaic as well, and fills in the gaps to make people believe in jesus.

It is basically a prophetic IQ morality test, and so we shouldn't throw any of it away; we should just examine it to the best of our abilities to make sure we get the grade required.

Here are links for reasons against John, Paul, and Simon.

In my opinion.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Think the clearest point is the Gospel of John sounds nothing like Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels... Here & Here is a List of about 30+ points.

Basically Simon was misled from the offset, which is why Yeshua called him the Stone (Peter - Petros), as metaphorically that caused the crops not to be planted properly.

Simon & Paul created Christianity on a Gospel about jesus's death; the Synoptic Gospels teach a Living Gospel.

The Gospel of John is Pharisaic as well, and fills in the gaps to make people believe in jesus.

It is basically a prophetic IQ morality test, and so we shouldn't throw any of it away; we should just examine it to the best of our abilities to make sure we get the grade required.

Here are links for reasons against John, Paul, and Simon.

In my opinion.

Having looked at the links you provide, I believe many of your doubts (regarding the coherence and consistency of scripture) would immediately evaporate if it could be shown that Jesus Christ had to fulfill all the Law and the Prophets.
Let's not forget the words that Jesus spoke on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection.
Luke 24:25-27.'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.'

The things we need to know about the person of Jesus Christ are to be found in the Old Testament. This includes the four distinct perspectives shown in the Gospels.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are all providing us with a perspective that is essentially human.

Matthew starts with the legal and royal genealogy of Christ, and continues with a theme of Messianic importance, especially to Jews.

Mark does not have a genealogy. It shows us the life of Jesus Christ as the Servant of God. Servants did not have a genealogy.

Luke is showing us Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, and we see the genealogy go back to Adam.

John is different. This Gospel shows us Jesus Christ as the Son of God. There is no genealogy for the Son of God; instead, we are presented with a record of the Word's pre-existence with God. The Word always existed with God.

Now, if you investigate these multiple roles carefully, you discover that each of the four roles was prophesied in the Old Testament. In fact, there is a fifth, too; but that is yet to be fulfilled.

Look them up for yourself and tell me what you make of each prophecy.
Jeremiah 23:5
Zechariah 3:8
Zechariah 6:12
Isaiah 4:2
Jeremiah 33:15

 

[Redemptionsong]

Think the clearest point is the Gospel of John sounds nothing like Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels... Here & Here is a List of about 30+ points.

Basically Simon was misled from the offset, which is why Yeshua called him the Stone (Peter - Petros), as metaphorically that caused the crops not to be planted properly.

Simon & Paul created Christianity on a Gospel about jesus's death; the Synoptic Gospels teach a Living Gospel.

The Gospel of John is Pharisaic as well, and fills in the gaps to make people believe in jesus.

It is basically a prophetic IQ morality test, and so we shouldn't throw any of it away; we should just examine it to the best of our abilities to make sure we get the grade required.

Here are links for reasons against John, Paul, and Simon.

In my opinion.

The other point I wanted to make was the difference between what is said in the Gospels by Jesus, and what Paul tells us in the epistles.

We are distinctly told that Jesus was a mediator. [Hebrews 8:6] He mediates between God and mankind, and between the Old and New Testaments. Hebrews 12:24 says, 'Jesus the mediator of the new covenant'.

Consider this for a moment. Jesus did not deliver the new covenant whilst ministering on earth, He lived out the law. He was personally anointed by the Holy Spirit at the Jordan river but the new covenant does not come into effect until AFTER he is crucified, resurrected and raised to heaven. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels is a preparation for what is to come.

The reality of the Holy Spirit dwelling within was not fully understood until after Jesus had departed this world. It was left to the apostles to experience the indwelling of the Spirit, and to teach others how they too might receive God's grace, both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, let's look closely at just ONE point you make. Hopefully, it will shed some light on a lie.

Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.

Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

John 12:31. 'Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I [Jesus Christ] be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.'

The DEVIL or SATAN is CAST OUT because the world, of which he is the PRINCE, is JUDGED.

Confirmation is found in the following verses.
John 14:30. 'Hereafter I [Jesus] will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.'
So the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS NOTHING IN JESUS!!
The two are poles apart!

The great deception of Satan is to make that which is evil appear as light. You are falling for it, my friend! I hope other Baha'is will begin to see the error of their ways.

As additional confirmation, look at John 16: 8-11.
'And when he [the Comforter, or Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I [Jesus] go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'

Think about it, Trailblazer. All along you have been keen to quote passages from John's Gospel that demonstrate that Christ came from the Father into the world as light into darkness. The world is a place of darkness.
John 17:14,15. 'I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them [my disciples], because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.'

Why would you call the Saviour from darkness the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD?!! This is logic gone mad!

You said: Are you not aware that the prince of this world is not the Messiah! It's the DEVIL or SATAN!

You said: Shoghi Effendi calls the Messiah 'the Prince of this world'.

The title "Prince of this world" when applied to Baha'u'llah has nothing to do with John 12:31 or John 14:30.

It means that Baha'u'llah was the Prince of Peace:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace. He set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

These Isaiah 9:6-7 prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).