How Paul changed the course of Christianity

[IndigoChild5559]

....Another point worth considering is the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Would a rebuilding of the Temple not put pressure on worldwide Jewry to return to the land of Israel? Are Jewish men not under an obligation to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year for the festivals of Pesach, Shavuot and Sukkot?

And, as much as you, and other Jews, may not wish to be a part of a new movement that ushers in a false messiah, even your vote within a democratic system of government may influence the arrival of such a person.

More to the point, maybe your rejection of Jesus as the Servant born on earth is leading you to look for a human being who will inevitably turn out to be a false messiah!

My reading of the New Testament suggests that there will be many false messiahs arriving, some performing amazing feats that even deceive the elect. The Antichrist himself will be the most terrible of all these false messiahs. He, we are told, will set up the 'abomination of desolation' in the holy place.

Matthew 24: 21,22. ' For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.'

Verse 27. 'For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.'

So, maybe Jews living under the law should be looking upwards, instead of looking round and about for a descendant of David. Maybe the days of grace are coming to an end.

Hello, my friend!!! Shabbat Shalom! I'm in a wonderful mood from all the joys and Torah discussions of the holy day, so I welcome a religious discussion with you.

As to the building of a third world Temple, remember that different Jews have different opinions on this. MOST Jews in the world are opposed. They are secular or Reform, and they believe that God has moved Judaism into an age where a Temple is no longer needed. It is largely the Orthodox who are into the rebuilding of the Temple today. I am no longer Orthodox, though I retain an awful lot from those years, and one of the things I retain is a desire for the rebuilding of the Temple. But I'm open to creative options how to do so. If there is a possibility of sharing the Temple Mount, it would be worth it if it would avoid an international war. Also, the prophets spoke of the third Temple as being a House of Worship for ALL peoples, not just Jews. Is there an idea in there that just needs a brilliant mind to dig out?

As to the issue of the Christian belief in the coming of a great Anti-Christ at the end of days who will commit the abomination of desolation, which they believe is claiming to be God...

My chats with Christians on this matter have all been online. You know in real life, its really not appropriate to bring up topics that can cause people to become angry and disturbed.

First, you have to understand that for me as a Jew, the abomination of desolation described in Daniel happened thousands of years ago. It was the sacrifice of pigs to Zeus that the Greeks did in the Temple, which triggered the Maccabean war.

I'm sure you know that I don't accept Christian eschatology. I don't buy into the Anti-Christ or Jesus coming again, my friend. But if it will make you feel any better... Let's assume that some wonderful awesome man comes to power and rebuilds the Temple and unites the world. People even begin to say he is the messiah. Let's say he even wants to rule from Jerusalem. Hey all of that IS theoretically possible. But then he goes and ruins it by claiming to be God. Well, it will make you happy to know that that might fool a lot of people, but it will not fool Jews. We Jews know that God is not a man, that it is ABSURD to think that God would be a man. The moment this guy claimed to be God, Jews would say, Okay, definitely not messiah material. Get this guy out of the Temple and out of Jerusalem, in fact, out of Israel!!! Since we returned from Captivity in Babylon, we simply have given up idolatry. No more statues, no more wives of God, and no men saying they are God. I hope that gives you a little more peace regarding Jews and your belief in the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Oh, and it's a little off topic, but you mentioned the Son of Man... This prophecy referred to Israel, not the messiah. It's like, I see this animal and it's this country. And then I see this other animal and it's this other country. And there are all these awful animals/countries. And THEN I see a nation that is like unto a Son of Man. What nation would that be? But like I said, that's kind of an off topic FYI.

 

[JJ50]

I am of the opinion Paul created the faith.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe that does not mean that he kept the law. It does not mean that he didn't do things contrary to the law. However I will grant that Paul may have been speaking specifically about the event that caused him to be taken into custody.

I'm sorry, my friend. I just don't see it the way you do.

How is it that when Paul goes to Jerusalem, where all the Jewish believers are "zealous for Torah," he says nothing against this if he is so opposed? I mean, from reading his texts and tales of his exploits, Paul doesn't strike me as a mousey kind of guy.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am of the opinion Paul created the faith.

I think that Paul, because he took the faith to the Gentiles, who soon overwhelmed the sect, had no idea what he was doing and where it would end. I think it was the Gentile converts, who brought in their Hellenistic thinking, that divorced Christianity from Judaism and, in the end, turned it anti-Semitic for two millennia--things Paul would never have done. The things Paul had said to them which really applied only to Gentiles became the rules for everyone, and the same Judaism which Jesus and all the Apostles including Paul practiced became of Satan.

 

[Trailblazer]

First, you have to understand that for me as a Jew, the abomination of desolation described in Daniel happened thousands of years ago. It was the sacrifice of pigs to Zeus that the Greeks did in the Temple, which triggered the Maccabean war.

As I have been saying on this forum, everyone interprets prophecies differently. Not only do Jews differ in their interpretations, Christians also differ widely. However, among the Baha’is we agree what certain prophecies mean if they have been explained in the “authoritative writings” of the Baha’i Faith. We accept the interpretations of those who were given authority to interpret the Bible by virtue of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. In short, Baha’u’llah conveyed authority to His successors in His Will and Testament. These are referred to as the “appointed interpreters” of the Baha’i Faith, and there are only two such men, the eldest son of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, the Centre of the Covenant, and His grandson Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith.

The meaning that Baha’is attribute to the abomination and desolation is in this chapter:

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

The abomination and desolation is also explained in the book Thief in the Night, in the context of the return of Christ, and that explanation if congruent with the chapter above. The author notes that Christ made three promises and that Christians should be looking for the return of Christ when these had been fulfilled. The third promise was as follows.

The third promise: All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.

I found the third promise of Christ to be the most interesting of all. It was given in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew.

The third promise was again given in direct answer to the questions of His disciples:

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming?” (Matthew 24:3)

Christ foretold that ‘iniquity would abound’ in that day, and that the ‘love of many shall wax cold’; then He makes His third promise in these words:

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand.)” (Matthew 24:15.)

The chapters of Daniel which deal with this subject are those from eight to twelve inclusive. These chapters (according to millennial scholars, as well as my own research) foretell not only the second coming of Christ, but to my keen interest, His first appearance as well.

It was this link between the first and the second coming of Christ which give to these chapters of Daniel such great importance in the study of the subject, and indeed this third promise was considered to be the most important of the three.

In these chapters, Daniel prophesies that from the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, until the time when the Messiah shall be cut off (crucified) there are appointed 70 weeks. Daniel gives this prophecy in two different ways:

1. As 70 weeks.

2. As 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and one week; during which the Messiah confirms the covenant.

However, both ways total up to 70 weeks or to 490 days. This becomes 490 years in prophecy with a day for a year.

In His first coming, it is prophesied that from the issuing of the decree to His cutting off, or crucifixion, 490 years will pass. The important thing then was for me to discover at what time the decree had been issued.

I found that there were four decrees to rebuild Jerusalem. They were as follows:

1. Issued by Cyrus in the year 536 BC. This decree is recorded in the first chapter of Ezra. It went unfulfilled.

2. Issued by Darius in the year 519 BC. This decree is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. It also went unfulfilled. Only the Temple was rebuilt.

3. Issued by Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign in the year 457 BC. This is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. It was fulfilled by the fourth decree.

4. Issued by the same Artaxerxes in the year 444 BC. This is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah. This decree fulfilled the third.

Most of the students of Scripture accepted the third decree of Artaxerxes as the one referred to by Daniel. They reasoned that since the fourth decree was merely an extension of the third, and was issued by the same king it was in reality the same decree. Therefore, they favoured the decree issued in 457 BC.

With this knowledge, it was now possible to state the prophecy of Daniel as follows: From the issuing of the decree of Artaxerxes in the year 457 BCuntil the time of the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, there would be appointed (or pass) 70 weeks, 490 days—or in prophecy, 490 years.

Many Bible scholars merely subtracted the 457 from the 490. This gave them 33 years. The Messiah (Christ) in His first coming would therefore be 33 years of age when He was cut off or slain.

I found that authorities differed widely as to the date of the birth of Christ, as well as to the date of His death. According to the Gospels, His birth took place before the death of Herod. Many historians calculated the death of Herod to have taken place in the month of April in the year 4 BC. Some said it was the year 5, some 6, some as early as the year 8 BC. Therefore, some of these scholars maintained that Christ was only 28 or less at the time of His death.

Others give a different year and a different day. However, they all centre around the period foretold by Daniel. Thus with amazing accuracy, Daniel had given the time for the first coming of Christ. No wonder Jesus Himself was so emphatic about Daniel’s prophecy concerning His second coming or return. He told His disciples to ‘stand in the holy place’ when Daniel’s prophecy about the ‘abomination of desolation’ was fulfilled. In that day He promised:

“… they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven …” (Matthew 24:30)

I followed the pattern of the millennial scholars of the 1840s and carefully examined Daniel’s prophecy concerning the ‘abomination of desolation’. His exact words were:

“How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the abomination of desolation, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (Daniel 8:13–14)

Thus, Daniel prophesied that two thousand three hundred days (2,300) would pass before the sanctuary would be cleansed. Following this time, all things would be made pure again. Before this time, the people would have fallen into a state of ‘abomination’ without love for God or man; then the Messiah would appear and restore their Faith and the purity of their belief. This was the general conclusion.

When would this take place? Daniel said it would come to pass in 2,300 days. In prophecy, this becomes 2,300 years.

Using the same frame of reference for the second coming, as was used for the first coming (the decree of Artaxerxes), the Bible scholars made the following calculations:

1. The decree was issued in 457. They subtracted 457 from 2,300 and arrived at 1,843. Thus the year 1843, they said, would mark the beginning of the end of the ‘abomination of desolation’

2. Some scholars pointed out that from the issuing of the decree in 457 until the birth of Christ there were 456 years, not 457; therefore, it was necessary to subtract 456 from 2,300. This left the year 1844.

Although many disputes arose as to the exact month, day, and hour, there was a basic agreement among nearly all that Christ’s return must take place between the years 1843 and 1845, with the year 1844 as the central point of reference.

One group of Christian scholars worked out Daniel’s prophecy in the greatest detail. They even built a special chart to show that Christ would return in the middle of the year 1844. (Bible Reading, Ed. Review and Herald Pub. Co. (Battle Creek, Michigan), p. 94.)

E. P. Cachemaille, sometime scholar of Cambridge University, in a new edition of H. G. Guinness’s book Light for the Last Days, maintains that this book had been recognized for over thirty years as a standard work of chronological prophecy. He quotes Guinness as saying the following about Daniel’s prophecy: “The decree (Edict of Toleration) was published in the 1260th year of the (Muslim) calendar. It is dated 21 March 1844. This date is the first of Nisan in the Jewish year, and is exactly twenty three centuries (2,300 years) from the first of Nisan, 457 BC, the day on which Ezra states that he left Babylon in compliance with the decree given in the seventh year of the reign of Artaxerxes.”

Thus the year 1844 was firmly established in their minds as the year for the fulfilment of the third promise of Christ concerning Daniel’s prophecy.

Excerpt from: Thief in the Night, pp. 16-21​

 

[Redemptionsong]

There is a big difference.

God SENDS the Holy Spirit to a Manifestation of God (e.g., Jesus, Baha’u’llah).

The Manifestation of God RELEASES the Holy Spirit into the world.

In both cases the SPIRIT is moving. I believe only God, Holy Spirit, is able to generate this movement OF HIMSELF. God can bestow the Holy Spirit [as at Pentecost], and he can take it away [as when Adam transgressed]. A Manifestation of God, unless it is Jesus Christ, does not have the power to bestow the Holy Spirit by their own will.

Any manifestation of God has the POWER to bestow the Holy Spirit by their own will. Jesus Christ is not any more special than any of the Manifestations of God in that regard. Sure, His Mission was special, but His capacities are the same as any other Manifestation of God.

How is the definition of sinner relevant to this topic of the Holy Spirit?

So I guess, based on scripture, Baha'u'llah must have been deceiving himself if he thought he had no sin. Or, should we place responsibility for these false claims on the followers of Baha'u'llah, Muhammad etc?

It was not Baha’u’llah who said He had no sin; it was the Baha’is. Here are some excerpts from a Christian forum where Christians were discussing this with Baha’is:

Manifestations define Truth and also the Will of God. They are also protected from sin.

However the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified from errors or omissions [Manifestations of God]. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce water to be win or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore. Whosoever raiseth objections will be numbered with the froward in the Book of God, the Lord of the worlds. 'Verily He shall not be asked of His doings but all others shall be asked of their doings.' (cf. Qur'an 21:3) He is come from the invisible heaven, bearing the banner 'He doeth whatsoever He willeth' and is accompanied by hosts of power and authority while it is the duty of all besides Him to strictly observe whatever laws and ordinances have been enjoined upon them, and should anyone deviate therefrom, even to the extent of a hair's breadth, his work would be brought to naught.

Infallibility: An Essay

Bahá'u'lláh further explained this teaching in Splendors (Ishraqat), addressed to Jalil-iKhu'i, an early believer who inquired about the verse on infallibility in The Most Holy Book. In Splendors, Bahá'u'lláh states that the term infallibility has several possible meanings, and in its broadest sense can refer to anyone God has guarded from sin and transgression. However, Bahá'u'lláh continues, the most great infallibility is a special characteristic of those prophets of God who are exalted above ordinances and prohibitions.[50] This appears to be a reference to the prophets endowed with constancy, who as legislators are not bound by the laws of the previous dispensation. Not only are they protected from sin, but they are morally "sanctified above errors and omissions."[51] They are infallible sources of law and ethics, having the power to define the ethical for their own dispensations by virtue of their sinlessness and their revelatory intuition of the needs of their times. The most great infallibility as a doctrine, Bahá'u'lláh says, acts to protect his religion. He reiterates that no one can share in it other than the Self of God.[52] This phrase refers to the universal manifestation of God, who is the manifestation of the Self of God, as we shall see below.

The Concept of Manifestation in the Bahá'í Writings​

There is only one God. God is not the Comforter.
Depending upon the context of a verse, the Comforter MEANS the Holy Spirit, but within another context it is a title used for the Manifestation of God to whom God SENT the Holy Spirit.

Baha’is believe in a Trinity, since we believe in three entities, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. However, our understanding of the way these operate is different from the Christian understanding.

Here are some excerpts from what Abdu’l-Baha said in Some Answered Questions:

“God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror…….

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity.”

27: THE TRINITY, Some Answered Questions, pp. 113-115​

I suggest that you read that whole chapter by clicking on the link above, in order to FULLY understand the Baha’i understanding of the Trinity. The chapter is not very long.

God sent His Spirit to Jesus Christ, who is called the Comforter.

God sent His Spirit to Baha’u’llah, who is called ‘another Comforter.’

It is still God’s Spirit that is sent, which is not the SAME as the Spirit of Christ, since Christ is not God, He is a Manifestation of God.

The soul of a Manifestation of God is SENT to earth from the heaven of the Will of God and it unites with His body when He is conceived, and then He is born and has a physical body, as Jesus was born from the womb of Mary.

Jesus said, SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN. This means that the scripture is self-supporting. It doesn't need me! Scripture is from God [2 Timothy 3:16], and His Word is truth [John17:17], but you are choosing not to believe that Word, which is your prerogative.

The Word clearly states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost [Spirit].
John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [Holy Spirit] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatever I [Jesus Christ] have said to you.'

Yet you say that God sends the Holy Spirit to the Comforter. This is not what God says.

Is Baha'u'llah able to save? No. He cannot save a man from death.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, essentially what you are saying is that Jews and those of all the other religions who do not believe in Jesus are excluded from the Kingdom of God?

What about Muslims and Baha’is who believe in Jesus, only in a different way than you believe?

The Dispensation of Jesus Christ has been unconditionally abrogated by the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah. I know I am not going to convince you of that and it is not my responsibility because Baha’u’llah did not give me that responsibility. Rather, He wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself. My only responsibility is to proclaim that Baha’u’llah has come and to teach the Faith to those who show an interest.

Nevertheless, I feel it is my obligation to at least impart the information. What you do with it is entirely up to you.

During the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, those who believed in Jesus had everlasting life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so history is repeating itself. Those who those who believe in Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life. I cannot say what will happen to everyone else because I am not God.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183​

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169​

Yes, I am saying that those who do not place their faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour are lost. I'm saying so because that is WHAT SCRIPTURE TELLS US.
Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from hence forth ye know him, and have seen him.' [John 14:6,7.]

I was not born a believer. I was born a sinner. Nor was I born a Jew. Yet I believe that a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, was chosen to be the Messiah, and the Saviour of the world. Anyone who would search the scriptures diligently and with an open-mind will, I believe, discover this to be the truth.

The problem I have with your position as a Baha'i is that you claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but in reality you reject him as the Word of God. This is a deception.

Here are some scriptures that should prove to you that Jesus Christ and the Word of God are ONE AND THE SAME.

Both are LIGHT.
Christ: 'I am the Light of the world' [John 8:12]
Bible: 'The Commandment is a Lamp, and the Law is light.' [Proverbs 6:23]
Both are TRUTH.
Christ: 'I am..the Truth.' [John 14:6]
Bible: 'Thy word is truth' [John 17:17]
Both are sources of LIFE.
Christ: 'I am...the Life.' [John 14:6]
Bible: 'The word of God is quick (living) and powerful' [Hebrews 4:12]

I know that Jesus Christ is a stumbling block for many. Once upon a time, I stumbled too. But he is faithful and true, and persists like a good shepherd, because he loves each one of us and does not want us to die.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Hello, my friend!!! Shabbat Shalom! I'm in a wonderful mood from all the joys and Torah discussions of the holy day, so I welcome a religious discussion with you.

As to the building of a third world Temple, remember that different Jews have different opinions on this. MOST Jews in the world are opposed. They are secular or Reform, and they believe that God has moved Judaism into an age where a Temple is no longer needed. It is largely the Orthodox who are into the rebuilding of the Temple today. I am no longer Orthodox, though I retain an awful lot from those years, and one of the things I retain is a desire for the rebuilding of the Temple. But I'm open to creative options how to do so. If there is a possibility of sharing the Temple Mount, it would be worth it if it would avoid an international war. Also, the prophets spoke of the third Temple as being a House of Worship for ALL peoples, not just Jews. Is there an idea in there that just needs a brilliant mind to dig out?

As to the issue of the Christian belief in the coming of a great Anti-Christ at the end of days who will commit the abomination of desolation, which they believe is claiming to be God...

My chats with Christians on this matter have all been online. You know in real life, its really not appropriate to bring up topics that can cause people to become angry and disturbed.

First, you have to understand that for me as a Jew, the abomination of desolation described in Daniel happened thousands of years ago. It was the sacrifice of pigs to Zeus that the Greeks did in the Temple, which triggered the Maccabean war.

I'm sure you know that I don't accept Christian eschatology. I don't buy into the Anti-Christ or Jesus coming again, my friend. But if it will make you feel any better... Let's assume that some wonderful awesome man comes to power and rebuilds the Temple and unites the world. People even begin to say he is the messiah. Let's say he even wants to rule from Jerusalem. Hey all of that IS theoretically possible. But then he goes and ruins it by claiming to be God. Well, it will make you happy to know that that might fool a lot of people, but it will not fool Jews. We Jews know that God is not a man, that it is ABSURD to think that God would be a man. The moment this guy claimed to be God, Jews would say, Okay, definitely not messiah material. Get this guy out of the Temple and out of Jerusalem, in fact, out of Israel!!! Since we returned from Captivity in Babylon, we simply have given up idolatry. No more statues, no more wives of God, and no men saying they are God. I hope that gives you a little more peace regarding Jews and your belief in the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Oh, and it's a little off topic, but you mentioned the Son of Man... This prophecy referred to Israel, not the messiah. It's like, I see this animal and it's this country. And then I see this other animal and it's this other country. And there are all these awful animals/countries. And THEN I see a nation that is like unto a Son of Man. What nation would that be? But like I said, that's kind of an off topic FYI.

Are you suggesting that the third Temple would be open to people of different faiths?! Surely not! The people who go to Jerusalem from amongst the nations will all be of ONE SPIRIT. How else can there be unity within one Temple?

This future gathering of nations to worship in Jerusalem occurs after the house of Israel are once again together in their land in ONE SPIRIT.
Ezekiel 37:13, 14 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Is this not confirmation that Jews must be born-again of God's spirit (Holy Spirit) if they are to be placed in their own land?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said, SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN. This means that....

And then you go on to say what it means to you. But that does not mean that is what Jesus meant. It is just what you think Jesus meant.... It means that to you. Why can’t you understand that if it means something else to other people, that means that it has more than one meaning.... This is logic 101 stuff.

the scripture is self-supporting. It doesn't need me! Scripture is from God [2 Timothy 3:16], and His Word is truth [John17:17], but you are choosing not to believe that Word, which is your prerogative.

No, scripture just sits on a page until someone reads it interprets it and assigns a meaning to it. It needs a human to interpret it and assign a meaning to it.

No, I am not choosing not to believe in that Word, I am choosing not to believe in your interpretation of the Word.... And I am certainly not the only one who does not agree with your interpretation of the Word, Christians do not even agree among themselves on the meanings of verses.

The Word clearly states that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost [Spirit].
John 14:26. 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [Spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [Holy Spirit] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to remembrance, whatever I [Jesus Christ] have said to you.'

Yet you say that God sends the Holy Spirit to the Comforter. This is not what God says.

I did not say that. I said that God sends the Holy Spirit. God sends the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit works THROUGH the Comforter. It does not just float in mid-air and teach you all things. The Holy Spirit has always worked through a Manifestation of God. Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through them.

Is Baha'u'llah able to save? No. He cannot save a man from death.

Jesus is not going to save you from physical death. Nobody can save you from that. All bodies die and they do not ever come back to life. Jesus saved your soul from death by conferring eternal life upon your soul, which is immortal. Your body is not immortal and it never will be...

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hatheverlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

All souls continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls have eternal life (everlasting life).

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

“The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world—that is to say, the torments of the other world—consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225​

Now, in this new age, it is Baha’u’llah has conferred eternal life upon all those who believe in Him.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 83 ​

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I am saying that those who do not place their faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour are lost. I'm saying so because that is WHAT SCRIPTURE TELLS US.
Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from hence forth ye know him, and have seen him.' [John 14:6,7.]

It says nothing about “Savior” in that verse. You added “as Savior.” You do not have the authority to add to scripture.

Jesus did not teach original sin, the Church added that later. There is nothing to be saved from. The verses say that you come to know the Father by Jesus. The New Testament was time/date stamped. The Dispensation of Jesus Christ has come to an end. Now Baha’u’llah says that you come to the Father by Him.

“His glory be with thee, inasmuch as thou hast journeyed from God unto God, and entered within the borders of the Court of unfading splendor—the Spot which mortal man can never describe. Therein hath the breeze of holiness, laden with the love of thy Lord, stirred thy spirit within thee, and the waters of understanding have washed from thee the stains of remoteness and ungodliness. Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 302-303

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331 ​

I was not born a believer. I was born a sinner. Nor was I born a Jew. Yet I believe that a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, was chosen to be the Messiah, and the Saviour of the world. Anyone who would search the scriptures diligently and with an open-mind will, I believe, discover this to be the truth.

I never denied that Jesus was the Messiah. Here read this short chapter, it is authoritative Baha’i Writings and it says that Jesus indeed was the Messiah, but He was not the only Messiah:

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

The problem I have with your position as a Baha'i is that you claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but in reality you reject him as the Word of God. This is a deception.

Again, that is not true. It is all just a matter of what you mean by the Word of God, the meaning you assign to those words. Here is the meaning assigned by Baha’is:

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness. The perfections of Christ are called the Word because all the beings are in the condition of letters, and one letter has not a complete meaning, while the perfections of Christ have the power of the word because a complete meaning can be inferred from a word. As the Reality of Christ was the manifestation of the divine perfections, therefore, it was like the word. Why? Because He is the sum of perfect meanings. This is why He is called the Word.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 206-207​

Here are some scriptures that should prove to you that Jesus Christ and the Word of God are ONE AND THE SAME.

Both are LIGHT.
Christ: 'I am the Light of the world' [John 8:12]
Bible: 'The Commandment is a Lamp, and the Law is light.' [Proverbs 6:23]
Both are TRUTH.
Christ: 'I am..the Truth.' [John 14:6]
Bible: 'Thy word is truth' [John 17:17]
Both are sources of LIFE.
Christ: 'I am...the Life.' [John 14:6]
Bible: 'The word of God is quick (living) and powerful' [Hebrews 4:12]

I know that Jesus Christ is a stumbling block for many. Once upon a time, I stumbled too. But he is faithful and true, and persists like a good shepherd, because he loves each one of us and does not want us to die.

I know that Jesus loves us and wants us to have eternal life, as I described it in my previous post.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And then you go on to say what it means to you. But that does not mean that is what Jesus meant. It is just what you think Jesus meant.... It means that to you. Why can’t you understand that if it means something else to other people, that means that it has more than one meaning.... This is logic 101 stuff.

No, scripture just sits on a page until someone reads it interprets it and assigns a meaning to it. It needs a human to interpret it and assign a meaning to it.

No, I am not choosing not to believe in that Word, I am choosing not to believe in your interpretation of the Word.... And I am certainly not the only one who does not agree with your interpretation of the Word, Christians do not even agree among themselves on the meanings of verses.

I did not say that. I said that God sends the Holy Spirit. God sends the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit works THROUGH the Comforter. It does not just float in mid-air and teach you all things. The Holy Spirit has always worked through a Manifestation of God. Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through them.

Jesus is not going to save you from physical death. Nobody can save you from that. All bodies die and they do not ever come back to life. Jesus saved your soul from death by conferring eternal life upon your soul, which is immortal. Your body is not immortal and it never will be...

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hatheverlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

All souls continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls have eternal life (everlasting life).

Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him, and according to Baha’u’llah, comes from believing in Him. One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

“The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world—that is to say, the torments of the other world—consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favors, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225​

Now, in this new age, it is Baha’u’llah has conferred eternal life upon all those who believe in Him.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 83 ​

Allow me to put this another way.

God's Word is Truth. God knows the meaning of His own Word. If it were down to every individual to interpret the word of God then there would be complete confusion and false doctrine, as we often encounter.

As Jesus says, you should allow God [Holy Spirit] to show you the meaning. Scripture cannot be broken; it is perfect, and without error. This is because God is perfect. So instead of relying solely on your own intellectual ability, you defer to a much greater intellect than your own.

You say you don't believe in original sin... and that's apparent. You're saying that you don't need the wisdom of God but reckon yourself able to know what is good and evil. [You should read Genesis 3]

Here is something else you say.
God sends the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit works THROUGH the Comforter. It does not just float in mid-air and teach you all things. The Holy Spirit has always worked through a Manifestation of God. Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through them.

If you were honest, Trailblazer, you would admit that this is not what God teaches in the Bible. The Bible is very explicit, and it is not a question of my personal interpretation. The HOLY SPIRIT IS the COMFORTER. Yet you continue to twist this around.

The Bible also says, explicitly, that the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within a believer. You keep denying this BUT the Bible says it time and time again.
'Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.' [2 Timothy 1:13,14]

 

[Redemptionsong]

Trailblazer, here's another little verse that is relevant to this discussion.

It says in 1 Corinthians 3:11.
'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.'
There is no need for further 'Manifestations of God' following Jesus Christ. He is the Saviour of the world and there is no need for another.

Why would Jesus Christ be described as the 'ALPHA and OMEGA' if there were others following him? [Revelation 21:6; 22:13.]

 

[Redemptionsong]

Trailblazer, Here's another point for consideration. What conclusions do you reach when you connect these scriptures together?

Isaiah 45:21,22.
'...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.'

1. Scripture teaches that there is only one Saviour from sin and death - God.

Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God
John 1:18.
'No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

2. Scripture teaches that only Jesus was begotten of God.

Titus 3:5,6.
'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his [God's] mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;'

3. Jesus Christ is Saviour.

As I see it, if God is the only Saviour, and He, the Father, begets a Son, then only that Son can SAVE. There is no other Saviour.

 

[Trailblazer]

Allow me to put this another way.

God's Word is Truth. God knows the meaning of His own Word. If it were down to every individual to interpret the word of God then there would be complete confusion and false doctrine, as we often encounter.

As Jesus says, you should allow God [Holy Spirit] to show you the meaning. Scripture cannot be broken; it is perfect, and without error. This is because God is perfect. So instead of relying solely on your own intellectual ability, you defer to a much greater intellect than your own.

So what you are saying is that if the Holy Spirit guides someone they will know the meaning of the Bible. This makes no logical sense at all because all Christians say that they have the indwelt Holy Spirit and they do not all agree about what the Bible means. Regarding their interpretations of Bible verses and meanings assigned, all Christians think they are right and those who disagree with them are wrong. All interpretations cannot be right if the interpretations of verses contradict each other, so either one of them is right and the others are wrong or they are all wrong, or..... Do you see the problem with your idea that the Holy Spirit guides you?

You say you don't believe in original sin... and that's apparent. You're saying that you don't need the wisdom of God but reckon yourself able to know what is good and evil. [You should read Genesis 3]

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:​

Do you actually believe that God talked to a snake and God cursed all of humanity because Eve ate an apple from a tree? How can anyone believe things like this? I absolutely do not believe that this literally happened, that God actually said what it says in these verses. This is a story meant to convey spiritual truths, as explained in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

The way I can know the difference between good and evil is by reading the teachings of Baha’u’llah, or the teachings of Jesus.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​

Here is something else you say.
God sends the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit works THROUGH the Comforter. It does not just float in mid-air and teach you all things. The Holy Spirit has always worked through a Manifestation of God. Jesus was the Comforter and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter because the Holy Spirit worked through them.

If you were honest, Trailblazer, you would admit that this is not what God teaches in the Bible. The Bible is very explicit, and it is not a question of my personal interpretation. The HOLY SPIRIT IS the COMFORTER. Yet you continue to twist this around.

There is no twisting of the verse; there is simply interpretation of the verse. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought after it was SENT by God.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

You say that the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of believers and teach all things and call them to remembrance so why can’t it be working through Jesus and Baha’u’llah? You cannot have this both ways. Either the Holy Spirit can work through people or not.

Sorry, but you just don’t like the FACT that Baha’u’llah was given the title of Comforter, but if the Comforter was a title given to Jesus then it can also be given to Baha’u’llah – another Comforter.

Why not just put your cards on the table. This is all about the Return of Christ. In the context of the following verses, Jesus is the Comforter and Jesus is saying that He will send another Comforter, which was Baha’u’llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

The Bible also says, explicitly, that the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within a believer. You keep denying this BUT the Bible says it time and time again.

'Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.' [2 Timothy 1:13,14]

That does not mean it literally lives inside your body. This verse was intended to be figurative, not literal. The Holy Spirit does not LIVE inside of any human body; it did not even live inside the body of Jesus!!!!!! You can believe that if you want to but it does not say “the Holy Ghost which lives inside your body.” “in us” does not mean inside the physical body. It means that the Holy Spirit affects our soul which is who we are as a person.

The physical body is just an outer shell, a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth. The Holy Spirit affects our mind because our mind is connected to our soul; the Holy Spirit does not take up residence inside anyone’s physical body. There are Christians who also believe that Jesus lives inside their body... what kind of insanity is this? Of course this is symbolic, not literal. When Jesus said I will be in you He meant He will be with you; He will be with you always because He will always affect your soul since it is eternal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, here's another little verse that is relevant to this discussion.
It says in 1 Corinthians 3:11.
'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.'
There is no need for further 'Manifestations of God' following Jesus Christ. He is the Saviour of the world and there is no need for another.

Jesus laid the foundation alright but that was just the foundation. A house needs more than a foundation. Jesus was indeed the Savior. Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom who laid the foundation, but He is not coming to build the house.

“Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.”

From: Christ and Baha'u'llah, Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom​

Jesus thus opened the way to the Kingdom of God, laid the foundation so that it could be built later, when Baha’u’llah came and brought the Kingdom of God. Jesus had no intention of returning and building that Kingdom.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.​

Why would Jesus Christ be described as the 'ALPHA and OMEGA' if there were others following him? [Revelation 21:6; 22:13.]

It was the Christ Spirit that was the Alpha and the Omega, not Jesus Christ the man. Jesus and Baha’u’llah are both the Alpha and the Omega because they are the Same Spirit of God. Jesus came in the name of the Son and Baha’u’llah came in the name of the Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer, Here's another point for consideration. What conclusions do you reach when you connect these scriptures together?

Isaiah 45:21,22.
'...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.'

1. Scripture teaches that there is only one Saviour from sin and death - God.

Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God
John 1:18.
'No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

2. Scripture teaches that only Jesus was begotten of God.

Titus 3:5,6.
'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his [God's] mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;'

3. Jesus Christ is Saviour.

As I see it, if God is the only Saviour, and He, the Father, begets a Son, then only that Son can SAVE. There is no other Saviour.

You are really fixated on that word Savior aren’t you? I never said that Baha’u’llah was our Savior. That was not His mission; that was the mission of Jesus. Jesus’ mission was to save individual souls; Baha’u’llah’ s mission was to proclaim the oneness of mankind establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

“O CONCOURSE of Christians! We have, on a previous occasion, revealed Ourself unto you, and ye recognized Me not. This is yet another occasion vouchsafed unto you. This is the Day of God; turn ye unto Him… The Beloved One loveth not that ye be consumed with the fire of your desires. Were ye to be shut out as by a veil from Him, this would be for no other reason than your own waywardness and ignorance. Ye make mention of Me, and know Me not. Ye call upon Me, and are heedless of My Revelation…. “O people of the Gospel! They who were not in the Kingdom have now entered it, whilst We behold you, in this day, tarrying at the gate. Rend the veils asunder by the power of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bounteous, and enter, then, in My name My Kingdom. Thus biddeth you He Who desireth for you everlasting life… We behold you, O children of the Kingdom, in darkness. This, verily, beseemeth you not. Are ye, in the face of the Light, fearful because of your deeds? Direct yourselves towards Him… Verily, He (Jesus) said: ‘Come ye after Me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.’ In this day, however, We say: ‘Come ye after Me, that We may make you to become quickeners of mankind.’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 91​

It is God who saves, not Jesus. It is right in the scriptures.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.​

How does God save us? God saved us through Jesus, by sending Jesus.

Jesus, the Word of God, gave us the profusion of His bounties and then died on the cross so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are you suggesting that the third Temple would be open to people of different faiths?! Surely not! The people who go to Jerusalem from amongst the nations will all be of ONE SPIRIT. How else can there be unity within one Temple?

I'm saying that the third temple would be open to all those who wish to worship the God of Abraham. In addition to the three monotheistic faiths, it would also mean inclusivistic monotheists who believe that anyone who worships the One God is in fact worshiping the same God, even if they call him by a different name.

Now other Jews may feel differently, but I think that Christians, despite their confusion over Jesus being God, qualify as monotheists. We used to discuss this at Chabad. The idea is that for Gentiles, it is permitted to have a symbol of the One True God. It's kind of like Jesus is the window through which Christians can look to see God, much the same as the monotheists in Egypt looked to ONE God through the sun. Jesus is no more God than the sun, but a connection can be made to God through these symbols if one is a Gentile. So, yes, even with its confused teachings, I think that "a house of worship for all peoples" includes letting in Christians, because Christians would be considered righteous Gentiles. But that just some of us Jews talking. There are many other takes on this.

This future gathering of nations to worship in Jerusalem occurs after the house of Israel are once again together in their land in ONE SPIRIT.
Ezekiel 37:13, 14 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Is this not confirmation that Jews must be born-again of God's spirit (Holy Spirit) if they are to be placed in their own land?

None of this indicates that Jews will agree with each other (and remember that Ezekiel is talking to us, not to Gentiles).

As to being "born again," the idiosyncratic understanding of this phrase is a Christian thing. I'm not interested in in. A normal reading of "born again" would be a figurative expression referring to spiritual transformation. No, I don't think that's what this verse is referring to. You are reading Jewish books through Christian glasses, and it's distorting the picture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So what you are saying is that if the Holy Spirit guides someone they will know the meaning of the Bible. This makes no logical sense at all because all Christians say that they have the indwelt Holy Spirit and they do not all agree about what the Bible means. Regarding their interpretations of Bible verses and meanings assigned, all Christians think they are right and those who disagree with them are wrong. All interpretations cannot be right if the interpretations of verses contradict each other, so either one of them is right and the others are wrong or they are all wrong, or..... Do you see the problem with your idea that the Holy Spirit guides you?

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:​

Do you actually believe that God talked to a snake and God cursed all of humanity because Eve ate an apple from a tree? How can anyone believe things like this? I absolutely do not believe that this literally happened, that God actually said what it says in these verses. This is a story meant to convey spiritual truths, as explained in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

The way I can know the difference between good and evil is by reading the teachings of Baha’u’llah, or the teachings of Jesus.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125​

There is no twisting of the verse; there is simply interpretation of the verse. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit that Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought after it was SENT by God.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

You say that the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of believers and teach all things and call them to remembrance so why can’t it be working through Jesus and Baha’u’llah? You cannot have this both ways. Either the Holy Spirit can work through people or not.

Sorry, but you just don’t like the FACT that Baha’u’llah was given the title of Comforter, but if the Comforter was a title given to Jesus then it can also be given to Baha’u’llah – another Comforter.

Why not just put your cards on the table. This is all about the Return of Christ. In the context of the following verses, Jesus is the Comforter and Jesus is saying that He will send another Comforter, which was Baha’u’llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.​

That does not mean it literally lives inside your body. This verse was intended to be figurative, not literal. The Holy Spirit does not LIVE inside of any human body; it did not even live inside the body of Jesus!!!!!! You can believe that if you want to but it does not say “the Holy Ghost which lives inside your body.” “in us” does not mean inside the physical body. It means that the Holy Spirit affects our soul which is who we are as a person.

The physical body is just an outer shell, a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth. The Holy Spirit affects our mind because our mind is connected to our soul; the Holy Spirit does not take up residence inside anyone’s physical body. There are Christians who also believe that Jesus lives inside their body... what kind of insanity is this? Of course this is symbolic, not literal. When Jesus said I will be in you He meant He will be with you; He will be with you always because He will always affect your soul since it is eternal.

Not all who call themselves Christians are born again. To be born again one must repent, receive the Holy Spirit, and walk by the Holy Spirit. In fact, the coming of the Holy Spirit is just the beginning of the journey, for Holy Spirit baptism is the beginning of a new life.

When believer's talk about Christ dwelling within, they are referring to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ comes from the Father. This, in simple terms, is the Trinity. The same spirit in three persons - the Father, above; the Son, amongst; and the Holy Spirit, within.

The coming of the Holy Spirit does affect the heart and soul because the Holy Spirit is able to touch us spiritually and emotionally. The Holy Spirit is a spirit of love, and therefore He leads us into the truth, which is love. God is love.

Turning the spirit of love into an understanding of written language and scripture takes time, but God leads the way.

Now, in terms of logic, explain this to me.

Your words are in red.

You are really fixated on that word Savior aren’t you? I never said that Baha’u’llah was our Savior. That was not His mission; that was the mission of Jesus. Jesus’ mission was to save individual souls; Baha’u’llah’ s mission was to proclaim the oneness of mankind establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

It is God who saves, not Jesus. It is right in the scriptures.

How does God save us? God saved us through Jesus, by sending Jesus.

Just how logical is this, Trailblazer? First, you say that Jesus saves souls. Then you say that God saves, and Jesus doesn't save. Finally, you say that God saves through Jesus.

Which is it to be?

Can I again point you to the error regarding the Comforter. If I'm fixated about salvation then I would say that you're fixated about Baha'u'llah being another Comforter. Yet, as I keep pointing out, the Comforter is NOT FLESH and BLOOD. The Comforter is all SPIRIT. The Comforter IS the HOLY SPIRIT.
You are saying, Jesus is the Comforter and Jesus is saying that He will send another Comforter, which was Baha’u’llah.
So you think that Baha'ullah is the HOLY SPIRIT! So, you must think that Baha'u'llah is GOD!

The following passage makes it clear that GOD and HOLY SPIRIT are used interchangeably.
Acts 5:3,4. 'But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm saying that the third temple would be open to all those who wish to worship the God of Abraham. In addition to the three monotheistic faiths, it would also mean inclusivistic monotheists who believe that anyone who worships the One God is in fact worshiping the same God, even if they call him by a different name.

Now other Jews may feel differently, but I think that Christians, despite their confusion over Jesus being God, qualify as monotheists. We used to discuss this at Chabad. The idea is that for Gentiles, it is permitted to have a symbol of the One True God. It's kind of like Jesus is the window through which Christians can look to see God, much the same as the monotheists in Egypt looked to ONE God through the sun. Jesus is no more God than the sun, but a connection can be made to God through these symbols if one is a Gentile. So, yes, even with its confused teachings, I think that "a house of worship for all peoples" includes letting in Christians, because Christians would be considered righteous Gentiles. But that just some of us Jews talking. There are many other takes on this.



None of this indicates that Jews will agree with each other (and remember that Ezekiel is talking to us, not to Gentiles).

As to being "born again," the idiosyncratic understanding of this phrase is a Christian thing. I'm not interested in in. A normal reading of "born again" would be a figurative expression referring to spiritual transformation. No, I don't think that's what this verse is referring to. You are reading Jewish books through Christian glasses, and it's distorting the picture.

IndigoChild, I'm shocked.

Do you genuinely believe that the third temple will be open to Jews, Muslims and Christians?

Are you aware that in the Qur'an it says that Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac. Muslims follow a different line of descent from that which was promised by God. IMO, Muhammad was a false prophet, yet you seem to think that just because someone calls themselves a monotheist that he/she must be a legitimate believer.

Here's what one Muslim writer says, 'Ishmael was looked upon as rejected and the Divine covenant was considered to have been made with the children of Isaac only. That was the Jewish view, and it was due to the fact that Ishmael was placed by Abraham near to the Ka'bah. And again while prophet after prophet appeared among the Israelites, no prophet appeared of the progeny of Ishmael, and hence the Jewish belief that Ishmael was rejected became stronger. Yet it was from the progeny of Ishmael that the Last Prophet, 'the head-stone of the corner' in the words of the Psalmist, was to arise, and the Black Stone, whencesoever brought, was placed as the corner-stone of the Ka'bah, as a sign that the rejected Ishmaelites were the real inheritors of the Divine Kingdom.' [Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam]

So tell me, how are you to receive God's spirit, as mentioned by Ezekiel?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

IndigoChild, I'm shocked.

Do you genuinely believe that the third temple will be open to Jews, Muslims and Christians?

As a student of comparative religion, I'm very aware of the teachings of non-Jewish groups. It is not limited to Muslims and Christians. I enjoy studying all the religions of the world.

No reason to be shocked if you think about it. Christianity is an exclusivist religion. In fact, some of your denominations even exclude other Christians. Judaism is simply not like that. There is no need for people to become Jews in order to have a "relationship with God." You are welcome to your particular faith -- I have no problems with the good, God-fearing people that are Christians. But you need to accept that Jews DO think differently than you. Your concerns are not always ours.

Remember that Jews are not in agreement on this particular topic. There are Jews who believe Christians are idolaters and unacceptable in their present form; among these there are those who believe the third temple will be built before the Messiah comes and Christians such as yourself would not be admitted, because you are not Noahide in their views, yet others believe that the third temple will not be built until the Messiah comes, at which point Christians, Muslims, and every other faith group in the world would give up their false beliefs and become Noahide. There are also Jews who don't believe the temple will ever be rebuilt, "God forbid" as one of them said to me. These usually have no problems with acknowledging other religions as fine, despite their confusion on certain issues. Even with this list, I'm not mentioning a lot of different opinions.

As for me? I personally have no problems with other expressions of the worship of God coming to the third temple. I think that ALL who wish to worship the God of Abraham should be welcomed, despite their obvious confusion. In fact, I think that by welcoming them, they will be exposed Judaism, and be much more likely to modify their errant views.