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How reasonable is monotheism, even hypothetically?

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

But is that at all true?

I don't think so, and here is why.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)? How can the claim be even attempted without presuming some form of human authority to decide what is proper divine form and what is not? And if we do accept that such human authority exists, what is then left of the transcendental nature of that deity?

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

For one thing, that is not very useful. Human beings are simply not likely to hold very similar conceptions of deity - or as I personally prefer to call it, of the sacred - and insisting that we nevertheless should act as if we did will only lead to pointless anxiety, fear, even moral dishonesty or at least the temptation to fall into it.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?
I think you are arguing that divinity is ineffable beyond human conception and understanding. I'm reminded of a "rendering" of Hafiz by Daniel Ladinsky:

I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:

How are you?

I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:

What is God?

If you think that the Truth can be known
From words,

If you think that the Sun and the Ocean

Can pass through that tiny opening Called the mouth,

O someone should start laughing!
Someone should start wildly Laughing –Now!
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That is quite the argument for atheism, since God is such an absentee and we have our consciences and our reason to fulfill every single significant role that he is supposedly necessary for.
God vs creation is a classic conception but not necessarily the only one. Another one is that everything and nothing is God thus there is nothing but God and thus God is "one".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think you are arguing that divinity is ineffable beyond human conception and understanding.

That sounds accurate, with the proviso that it is so to such an extent that the idea loses usefulness, at least to me.

I sometimes speak of "that which is sacred", in order to dispell expectations that there would be a conscious will guiding things.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
How many people are praying for starving children? Who is actually trying to feed them?
Too many assume Divinity is a piñata that delivers goodies when "struck" by magical invocations. I prefer Teresa of Avila's perspective:

Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are his body.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I take it that you mean some popular forms of monotheism, not theism as a whole?

That is actually logical enough if you do not particularly care for morality, virtue, decency or facts. A nasty result is that there is a very strong inverse correlation between the demographic expansion of monotheist doctrines and their actual merits, to the point that many of the most virulent (or by their own accounts, "succesful") have developed into full memetic diseases to be eventually purged from our midst.

If I care about morality, virtue, decency or facts, how many gods do I need. Does no-god help us care more about morality, virtue, decency or facts. Does 1 God does 10 Gods, the world is how it is God or No God.

I don't see the inverse correlation according to science this is the most peaceful time in the world and today's religion's actually teach about peace but are corrupted by humans for war. The past religions taught the war was good and that rewards were gained by dying in battle. You really wouldn't have liked the religions of the past with Human and Animal sacrifices and youth being taught that dying in battle was the greatest accomplishment you could have. Today's religions at least encourage other paths.

Humans will always find ways to develop new memetic diseases one will probably lead to our species dying off.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If I care about morality, virtue, decency or facts, how many gods do I need.

None, although some forms of theism might help in developing the expression of those drives, with the proper caution.


Does no-god help us care more about morality, virtue, decency or facts. Does 1 God does 10 Gods, the world is how it is God or No God.

Indeed. That is why I understand god-beliefs to be a matter of faithfulness to the person itself, not to the outside world.

I don't see the inverse correlation according to science this is the most peaceful time in the world and today's religion's actually teach about peace but are corrupted by humans for war.

What do you mean by "corrupted by humans"? Are you implying that they were originally less warlike? That they were not human in origin? Both? Something else?

The past religions taught the war was good and that rewards were gained by dying in battle. You really wouldn't have liked the religions of the past with Human and Animal sacrifices and youth being taught that dying in battle was the greatest accomplishment you could have. Today's religions at least encourage other paths.

Perhaps. Somehow I suspect that it is not quite that simple, but maybe you are right.

Humans will always find ways to develop new memetic diseases one will probably lead to our species dying off.

But we do not have to simply condone the empowering of such diseases with arrogant god-beliefs, now do we?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
But we do not have to simply condone the empowering of such diseases with arrogant god-beliefs, now do we?

If only arrogant god-beliefs were the problem. Belief in any thing harms no one, it is the actions people are willing to take that cause the harm. God is an excuse much as nationalism, racism, pride, hate...etc that allow us to take our beliefs to action. Removing God removes only one of the millions of excuses.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Many people talk of monotheism as if it were a given that it is a good thing, worth presuming as true and somehow pursuing.

But is that at all true?

I don't think so, and here is why.

First of all, I don't think monotheism - the mainstream versions of its Abrahamic variety, at least - can be both true, accurate and important all at once. There is a serious logical contradiction in the attempt to give it all three atributes.

Why? Because in order to quantify an entity we have to delimit it by some form of parameters. And yet those same doctrines that insist that there is just One True God also emphasize its supreme transcendence, the classic example being the claim that everything that exists needs a creator, the sole exception being their creator God himself.

So, how is it even conceivable that such an entity, presumably above any and all attempts of human classification and delimitation, somehow can only be correctly perceived as being one (as opposed to any other number, including none)? How can the claim be even attempted without presuming some form of human authority to decide what is proper divine form and what is not? And if we do accept that such human authority exists, what is then left of the transcendental nature of that deity?

It seems to me that there is a core mistake in attempting to have a rigid, well-defined conception of deity and then building a doctrine that relies on the accuracy of that conception.

For one thing, that is not very useful. Human beings are simply not likely to hold very similar conceptions of deity - or as I personally prefer to call it, of the sacred - and insisting that we nevertheless should act as if we did will only lead to pointless anxiety, fear, even moral dishonesty or at least the temptation to fall into it.

And that leads to a far greater problem than simple inaccuracy of doctrine. Insistence on the claim of universal truth and significance of such a minor and deeply personal matter as conceptions of deity compromises the very worth of any doctrine. All too quickly it becomes too busy in defending itself from the fragility of its own premises and the unavoidable consequences, and the validity of the teachings of even its most skilled, best meaning adherents is put to waste.

We all should be at peace with the simple contemplation that it is not for humans to act as wardens of specific, rigid, limited understandings of the sacred. Such an effort is both arrogant and demeaning, regardless of whatever some speculative truth about the nature of the sacred might be.

Surely, if even reasonably average human beings can easily be skilled enough to have various aspects according to the people that they interact with and the situations that they find themselves in, then there should be no doubt that a true deity (if such exists) can hardly be limited in its manifestations in ways that would be unreasonable even to humans?

I suspect it was useful for empire building. You need something to unify people, family, skin color, nation etc. If you don't have that, especially when you're conquering other groups of people, enforce a common God with supreme authority.

If you can't otherwise find a common denominator to unite people, then create one. Problem with the US now is we've lost any common denominator. We don't have God, we don't have nation, we don't have culture. Diversity will eventually destroy the group.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If only arrogant god-beliefs were the problem. Belief in any thing harms no one, it is the actions people are willing to take that cause the harm. God is an excuse much as nationalism, racism, pride, hate...etc that allow us to take our beliefs to action. Removing God removes only one of the millions of excuses.

I beg to differ. Nationalism is somewhat related to proselitist monotheism and suffers from many of the same dangerous trappings, that I will readily grant. But nearly all other excuses are at least clearly connected to reality and therefore falsifiable to some extent.

I suspect it was useful for empire building. You need something to unify people, family, skin color, nation etc. If you don't have that, especially when you're conquering other groups of people, enforce a common God with supreme authority.

There seems to be a lot to that, indeed.

If you can't otherwise find a common denominator to unite people, then create one. Problem with the US now is we've lost any common denominator. We don't have God, we don't have nation, we don't have culture. Diversity will eventually destroy the group.

I think you are underselling the positive aspects of diversity, which are many, varied and solid.


Frankly, no.

I suspected as much, but I had to ask.


It was a yes or no question.

No one is stopping you from elaborating on your views.

To me there is a clear, direct contradiction in claiming that God is important because he will be judging me. That is a rather miserable role for a deity-concept, given that there is nothing at all inspiring or transcedental to it. Basically, he needs me to lend him significance from the get go.

If you think that is enough to qualify him as a god, then so be it. But I certainly won't.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
One thing to consider (that has already been mentioned in this thread) is that belief or doubt in a creator God does not change the reality of existence proper. Neither makes nor unmakes the universe or human beings intentionally created.

What is at stake is not the nature of existence, but something far more mundane: our attitude towards it.
 
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