How responsible is God for Satan's actions?

[Enoch07]

Oh?... I wasn't aware that that's how predetermination works

Pre-destination is horsep00p. It's not moving the goal because, there is no single future to arrive at. You have a multitude of futures any of which you could arrive at, solely based on your own choices. God knows all of them, which is why he is omnipotent.

 

[Aldrnari]

It is easy to assume you would choose not to father such a person in a hypothetical situation, but I think reality is much more complex. For example, what if before your hypothetical child becomes a serial killer he has a family and his children are all caring, responsible people who benefit their community and also have children who go on to be productive individuals, possibly even inventing or doing something to truly bless the world. No one person exists in a vacuum, as all humanity is interconnected...mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, etc. So to say you would eliminate someone because they will commit terrible things, may if fact also cause the elimination of many others who may do all kinds of tremendously good things bringing many beneficial accomplishments to the world. Finite humans just don't know the future and can't see the whole picture.

And yet god does, right? What good came of the black death? The trail of tears? The donner party incident? Jack the ripper? The list is endless.

 

[Aldrnari]

Pre-destination is horsep00p. It's not moving the goal because, there is no single future to arrive at. You have a multitude of futures any of which you could arrive at, solely based on your own choices. God knows all of them, which is why he is omnipotent.

So then god doesn't know what choices we will make in the end?

 

[Enoch07]

Still, if we're talking about possible futures instead, I still wouldn't take that risk. Knowing a future child had a very good chance of being a serial killer still puts the responsibility in my court.

Probably for the best. If a perfect child is the only child you will raise then it's best for you to never be a parent. The chances of having a child with no disabilities, and only good intentions is low. Being a parent is about doing the best you can to raise and love a child despite any imperfections.

 

[Enoch07]

So then god doesn't know what choices we will make in the end?

He knows all the choices.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If God is omnipotent, then God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens whether Satan exists or not: no matter what [evil thing] happens, God is either unwilling or unable to stop it.

In my theology, God has died for this, resurrected not to life but to daily death [because God is continually responsible for evil] and renewal [through the Mass // Eucharist].

 

[Aldrnari]

Probably for the best. If a perfect child is the only child you will raise then it's best for you to never be a parent. The chances of having a child with no disabilities, and only good intentions is low. Being a parent is about doing the best you can to raise and love a child despite any imperfections.

Oh lordy... So you want to judge me personally based on a hypothetical situation taken way out of context?

I think I'm done talking to you at this point.

 

[Enoch07]

If God is omnipotent, then God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens whether Satan exists or not: no matter what [evil thing] happens, God is either unwilling or unable to stop it.

In my theology, God has died for this, resurrected not to life but to daily death [because God is continually responsible for evil] and renewal [through the Mass // Eucharist].

Its not that He is unwilling or unable. He is going to put a stop to it, when the time is right. Until then we just got to hang in there.

 

[Enoch07]

Oh lordy... So you want to judge me personally based on a hypothetical situation taken way out of context?

I think I'm done talking to you at this point.

No judgement. But you said you would not raise a child if there was a chance they would be a killer. Well, if you have a child there is a chance they will grow up to be a killer. That is just a fact of life.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Its not that He is unwilling or unable. He is going to put a stop to it, when the time is right. Until then we just got to hang in there.

Sure, I guess I was imprecise.

God is unwilling or unable to stop it - at the moment. To be fair, for as long as humans have thought there was a God, that God has shown no sign of being willing or able to stop evil.

 

[Enoch07]

Sure, I guess I was imprecise.

God is unwilling or unable to stop it - at the moment. To be fair, for as long as humans have thought there was a God, that God has shown no sign of being willing or able to stop evil.

He has told He will, in Revelations. It's only a matter of time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

He has told He will, in Revelations. It's only a matter of time.

Actually, [at the very least] the person who copied Revelations [no surviving original] said that the author of Revelations [whoever that is] said that an angel said that God said that he would stop evil someday.

 

[Enoch07]

Actually, [at the very least] the person who copied Revelations [no surviving original] said that the author of Revelations [whoever that is] said that an angel said that God said that he would stop evil someday.

That's good enough. All it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed.

 

[Deeje]

Satan deceives people because God wants him to. if God didn't want Satan to deceive people, God could stop all of his efforts, and God chooses not to, making God just as responsible For the evil in the world.

This is why I asked you the last question. Do you know why God did not execute the rebels then and there?

If God knew what was going to happen to humanity as a result of this defection, then as a loving God, he must have had good reason to handle the situation the way he did.

All the evil in the world is about to be eliminated, but not before all humanity have been tested. Why would God want to test us all? Because he is going to return humans to the life that he had planned for them at the beginning. What the rebels took away from the human race, Jesus came to get back for us.....everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth.

Just think what would have happened if Adam and his wife had not succumbed to the devil's temptation? Humans would have "filled the earth" with their kind and no one would ever have had to suffer evil.

In order to give all humans the opportunity to choose him as their God, he placed before them everything they needed to know in order to qualify for the life he had planned for them all along. Every one of them will have proven to be trustworthy and reliable peacemakers. Just the kind of people who will make living there a pleasure.

When Jesus walked the earth, he cured the sick and healed disabled and afflicted ones...he even raised the dead as a demonstration of what was to come on a grand scale earth-wide under the rulership of his Kingdom. Had God simply eliminated the rebels without proving that he is the rightful Sovereign of the Universe, then what was to prevent that scenario being played out again and again with a new satan and a new set of victims? There was only one way to vindicate his name and reputation as rightful Sovereign, once and for all....to allow the devil time to prove his claims.

By dealing with things the way he has, God will have determined who is worthy to live in his new world...and who is not. By permitting the devil to rule the world for an allotted period of time, God has allowed humans to see first hand what happens when his laws and commands are ignored in favor of 'doing what they want to do'. Independence from God is not all its cracked up to be.

Under the devil's influence, this world continues to spiral out of control. This is setting precedents which will serve mankind for all eternity to come....God will never have to defend the rightfulness of his sovereignty ever again.

Man will still have free will and so will the angels, but no rebel will ever get past the first steps because of the precedents now set into God's law.

I see the wisdom in what God has done and I hope to be among those who get to enjoy what God proposed at the beginning.....to have a perfect human race dwelling in peace and security, with no sickness, aging or death to ever make life miserable again, thanks to Christ's sacrifice. We have so much to look forward to.....we just have to deal with the present as best we can......and with lots of help from God.

 

[William Milverton]

.
.
The bible is clear that Lord Jesus created your universe and is now the supreme ruler of it
Lord Jesus was the God of the Old Testament
Link : Jesus Christ Was the God of the Old Testament


In KJV Isaiah 45 : 7 Lord Jesus says :-
”I form the light and create darkness
I make peace and create evil
I the Lord do all these things”


In the next verse he explains why
It is to reach the pre-determined result of righteousness


The pharisees of the Christian church have created the myth that Jesus is a sweet hippy who is incapable of anything but love
To impose this propaganda on the world, they re-wrote the bible as the NIV
The NIV changed the above verse as far as they dared, but were still left with :-


I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.


God The Father has never denied or hid form or obscured the fact that he created Satan
In fact, Satan is simply the god personification of Lust (which divides into pride, greed, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth). There are far worse things out there than Satan. A lot worse.


God The Father exists in eternity, outside of matter, energy, space and time
He also exists in your soul. You call him your conscience
He is directly responsible for everything good and bad that happens to you


When you develop a relationship with your own conscience, to the extent of following its instructions even when you don’t want to, your life will slowly start to go right again
and you will be directed towards your Life Purpose
.
.

 

[Jean Valjean]

Hesekiel 18: "The father should not bare the guilt with the son and the son shall not bear the guilt with the father. Every man shall bare his own guilt. The soul who sin is the soul who die."

 

[12jtartar]

Let's say the Bible is true.

If a father lets a Serpent into the room with his children, knowing in advance what the serpent will do to them, isn't the father just as responsible as the serpent, especially if you consider the fact that the father made the serpent knowing what the serpent would do?

PopeADope,
At first glance, your post might seem to be rational ratiocination, but with a little further thought, it holds no water.
You are assuming that The Almighty God knows everything, even all things that have not yet happened. This concept is inaccurate! God could look into the future, but on things of a personal nature, He does not look ahead. If He did then all things that happen would be His responsibility, because when He knows something will happen, people would believe that He made it happen. This would mean that God planned wickedness, and that all the bad things were actually within God, which is totally false, Deuteronomy 32:3-5, Job 34:10.
The Bible tells us that God is perfect in knowledge, Job 36:4, 37:16. That does not mean that He knows everything that has not yet happened, for there is nothing to know. God knows everything that has happened.
It is easy to see that God does not always look into the future, because there are many places where God is very disappointed, or hurt by what men have done. This would not be the case if He knew it was going to happen, and especially so if He made it happen, Genesis 6:5-7.
Think about this, God warned Adam about eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. This would be complete deception if it was God’s plan for Adam and Eve to rebell. Remember God hates deception, Psalms 5:6. The Bible even mentions that there was no deception in Jesus, who is just like his Father, 1Peter 2:21,22. The same principle is also in the warning that God gave to Cain, Genesis 4:6,7. God saw in his heart or actions that Cain had a wrong attitude and warned him. God definitely did not want Cain to kill his brother Able.
Another point, if God had planned for Adam to sin, that would also mean that he had first planned to have His Unique, most loved son to be sacrificed, in order to keep all mankind from staying in the grave forever. This would have been evil!!!
Remember John 3:16, which is called, The Gospel in Miniature, which says that God loves the world so much that He sent His son to give his life to save all who would believe in Him and His son.
It is true that God knows every contingency that can happen, but just because God looks forward on some things, it does not mean that He causes them. Just because a weather man knows that a hurricane is going to hit a certain place does not mean that He caused it to happen.

 

[12jtartar]

.
.
The bible is clear that Lord Jesus created your universe and is now the supreme ruler of it
Lord Jesus was the God of the Old Testament
Link : Jesus Christ Was the God of the Old Testament


In KJV Isaiah 45 : 7 Lord Jesus says :-
”I form the light and create darkness
I make peace and create evil
I the Lord do all these things”


In the next verse he explains why
It is to reach the pre-determined result of righteousness


The pharisees of the Christian church have created the myth that Jesus is a sweet hippy who is incapable of anything but love
To impose this propaganda on the world, they re-wrote the bible as the NIV
The NIV changed the above verse as far as they dared, but were still left with :-


I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.


God The Father has never denied or hid form or obscured the fact that he created Satan
In fact, Satan is simply the god personification of Lust (which divides into pride, greed, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth). There are far worse things out there than Satan. A lot worse.


God The Father exists in eternity, outside of matter, energy, space and time
He also exists in your soul. You call him your conscience
He is directly responsible for everything good and bad that happens to you


When you develop a relationship with your own conscience, to the extent of following its instructions even when you don’t want to, your life will slowly start to go right again
and you will be directed towards your Life Purpose
.
.

William Milverton,
I don’t know what books you have been reading, but it is sure that you barely have a nodding acquaintance with the Bible.
It is my belief that it is impossible for a person to be a Christian and believe as you seem to.
Your thoughts are so twisted that I don’t know where to start. You do not seem to even have a basic foundation to build on.
To start there is only ONE True God, and His name is Jehovah. This is God’s Personal, Proper Name, written in the Holy Scriptures, in Hebrew, YHWH, or JHVH. The name means, He causes to become, called by many, The First Cause, The Name Jehovah was in the Original Autographs almost 7,000 times. Bible translators have removed God’s Name from Abi’s own Holy Bible, which they will, in a short time rue the day.
There are numerous Scriptures that prove that Jesus, is not Jehovah. Jesus himself tells us that at John 17:3.
Consider this, is it possible for a person to come in before a person sitting on a throne and receive something out of the hand of the person sitting on the throne, and the person sitting on the throne and the one coming in???Daniel 7:13,14, Revelation 5:1-10.
In the Hebrew Scriptures there are many prophecies! One is about the coming of the Messiah, which was Jesus, recorded at Isaiah 9:6,7. In this place the mighty god mentioned is Jesus. This place the name for a mighty god in Hebrew is El Gabbohr. The name for The Almighty God Jehovah, many times in Hebrew is El Shaddai, meaning Almighty God. As you might know there is an infinite difference between mighty and Almighty.
The Bible tells us that Jesus was the very first of God’s creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. Jesus himself said that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57. Jesus said that the Father is GREATER than he is, John 14:28. Could that be the reason that Jesus prayed to his Father, many times? Hebrews 5:1-9. Jesus said that the Father in Heaven was his God and our God, His Father and our Father, John 20:17.
Jesus said that his Father knew things that he did not know, and that God controlled things that he did not have control over, Matthew 20:23, 24:36.
One place in the Bible is very important, where Jesus was transfigured, and a voice came from heaven saying; This is my son, the beloved, LISTEN TO HIM, Mark 9:7. There is only one name under heaven by which we MUST be saved, Jesus, Acts 4:12.
Pleases meditate on these truths! Agape!!!

 

[Faithofchristian]

How Responsible is God for Satan's actions ?
Not one thing,

Let's say you told your children before they entered the candy store, not to touch any candy in the store.
But yet your children disobeyed you and took candy from the store.

Now are you at fault or your children at fault, for disobeying you ?

The other question is, did God know before hand how Satan would turn out.
The answer to this is No.

But yet people will say, Waite doesn't God know everything before it happens.

The answer to this, is No,
All because there are times when God chooses not to know beforehand.

Now to prove this by the bible, Ok

Let's go to the book of Ezekiel 28:15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( till ) meaning, a less formal way of saying, Until.
Until up to a time.
Until you stop by.

Therefore God did not know ( till ) ( until ) up to the time iniquity was found in Satan. Before this,God did not know, until iniquity was found in Satan.

Therefore there are times when God may choose not to know things beforehand, Like God did with Satan.

It could very well be, that God chooses not to know beforehand, because God wants to see what you will do, without God knowing beforehand what you will do.

Maybe God likes to be surprised by your actions. Without knowing beforehand what you will do ?

 

[Kenny]

Let's say the Bible is true.

If a father lets a Serpent into the room with his children, knowing in advance what the serpent will do to them, isn't the father just as responsible as the serpent, especially if you consider the fact that the father made the serpent knowing what the serpent would do?

NO - Just as you are responsible for your actions... so Satan is responsible for his.

Your daddy isn't responsible for what you do PopeADope