How responsible is God for Satan's actions?

[Enoch07]

Well if that's the case then maybe I put this in the wrong section. The book I'm debating is the Bible in general but it's a debate that the person first has to assume the Bible is true and then debate how responsible God is for Satan's actions.

there is no particular book in the Bible I'm debating.

Yeah it belongs in the general religious debates if you want to avoid this in the future.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God judges in much the same way.

But if person 1 abuses person 2, causing 2 to become an abuser, would god not hold 1 accountable for both, since the abuse given to others by 2 was a direct result of the actions of 1?

 

[Enoch07]

But if person 1 abuses person 2, causing 2 to become an abuser, would god not hold 1 accountable for both, since the abuse given to others by 2 was a direct result of the actions of 1?

You are correct in that particular instance. Although person 2 still has some accountability as well. I can't say for sure obviously (since I am not God), but persons 1 abuse of person 2 would be considered when judging person 2's wrong doings.

 

[Aldrnari]

Peter had choices he could have denied only once, twice, three, four etc times, or not even at all. He still chose to do it 3 times.

And Jesus knew he would do it ahead of time, exactly... Even to the rooster crowing. So god knows exactly which path we choose before we do, no?

 

[Enoch07]

And Jesus knew he would do it ahead of time, exactly... Even to the rooster crowing. So god knows exactly which path we choose before we do, no?

He knows what path(s) we can chose from, and from there which path(s) we chose etc. Because he can see all of it at the same time. He can see all the different possible alternate realities at the exact same time throughout all time at the same time. 4.2 billion years ago is the same as today, is the same as 4.2 billion into the future. All possibilities and all outcomes of each possibility exponentially impacting each other into infinity. Even then I am doing a disservice in trying to explain it because it goes even further into the incomprehensible the further I try to explain it. That is the best I can do to explain it to my understanding.

 

[Aldrnari]

He knows what path(s) we can chose from, and from there which path(s) we chose etc. Because he can see all of it at the same time. He can see all the different possible alternate realities at the exact same time throughout all time at the same time. 4.2 billion years ago is the same as today, is the same as 4.2 billion into the future. All possibilities and all outcomes of each possibility exponentially impacting each other into infinity. Even then I am doing a disservice in trying to explain it because it goes even further into the incomprehensible the further I try to explain it. That is the best I can do to explain it to my understanding.

And yet he knows which one, eventually, we pick it seems. Otherwise, how could he predict something so specific?

 

[Enoch07]

And yet he knows which one, eventually, we pick it seems. Otherwise, how could he predict something so specific?

Because he can see it all.

Nobody is predestined for any judgment except Satan. He is the only one who is guaranteed to be vanquished. You, I, and everyone else it is determined by our actions here on Earth. I could still messed things up and not pass judgment. You could change your mind and become a Christian. Both of these things is possible and God knows this. But which path we take is completely on us. Hopefully that make sense.

 

[InChrist]

It's obvious I wasn't talking about Genesis. I said if a father lets a serpent into a room with children is the father responsible.

the Garden of Eden was not a room and Adam and Eve were not children. It's obvious I wasn't talking about them.

It's a scriptural debate, because I'm saying let's say the Bible is true, and if the Bible is true, how responsible is God for Satan's actions. It's absolutely 100% obvious I was not talking about Adam and Eve just read the opening post.

It was not 100% obvious to me you weren't referring to Genesis, the Garden of Eden, and the serpent tempting Adam and Eve. I thought it was obvious you were referring to the Genesis account and blaming God for the fall.

 

[InChrist]

Meh... How very convenient. Under this logic, any horrible event can be justified.

Everything works out in the end, right? I'm not so sure I'd think that if, say, I had an toddler who died from bone cancer.

Understandable, but the scriptures state plainly enough that terrible things such as cancer, death, and the other tragedies of life are the result sin which has damaged and impacted this world, but God has a better eternity in store with no more tears, pain, or suffering.

 

[Aldrnari]

Because he can see it all.

Nobody is predestined for any judgment except Satan. He is the only one who is guaranteed to be vanquished. You, I, and everyone else it is determined by our actions here on Earth. I could still messed things up and not pass judgment. You could change your mind and become a Christian. Both of these things is possible and God knows this. But which path we take is completely on us. Hopefully that make sense.

OK, then. If he sees everything, then he knows what we WILL eventually pick, regardless. That does make him responsible when he allows things to happen when he has exclusive knowledge of what we will do; or even when he puts temptations in place that he knows we will succumb to (and will be our downfall).

If he knew Satan would rebel and take one third of the angels with him, that's on him. He put the tree of knowledge in the garden specifically knowing that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit. He allowed Jephthah's daughter to leave his home first knowing that he would make her a burnt offering to himself (god) (and he didn't stop Jephthah like he stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac, which in itself is a messed up test).

Does that not make him responsible when he allows these things to happen when he has the exclusive knowledge and power to intervene?

Imagine the president knowing a terrorist attack was going to happen in a packed football stadium and just... Letting it happen. Would he not be responsible?

 

[Enoch07]

Does that not make him responsible when he allows these things to happen when he has the exclusive knowledge and power to intervene?

He has to let free will take it's place. If He stops someone from doing something evil, He has impeded that person's free will. He is not going to prevent anyone from doing anything good or bad because both are apart of humans free will.

Imagine the president knowing a terrorist attack was going to happen in a packed football stadium and just...Letting it happen. Would he not be responsible.

The terrorist who put the bomb there would be responsible for killing people.

When the President warned people. Today is not a good day to watch football so stay at home. He has warned people of the dangers.

God has already warned us of the dangers. Now it's only up to us to try and avoid as many as possible.

 

[Aldrnari]

He has to let free will take it's place. If He stops someone from doing something evil, He has impeded that person's free will. He is not going to prevent anyone from doing anything good or bad because both are apart of humans free will.



The terrorist who put the bomb there would be responsible for killing people.

When the President warned people. Today is not a good day to watch football so stay at home. He has warned people of the dangers.

God has already warned us of the dangers. Now it's only up to us to try and avoid as many as possible.

I'm going to disagree. With all due respect, if the president had all the information he needed, he would stop the terrorists before they struck.

Hmmm... Does god respect the free will of angels as well? More so than humans? Because of Satan's choice, the vast majority of humanity will suffer in hell for all eternity (if you are a fundamentalist/southern baptist/ evangelical).

 

[Aldrnari]

Understandable, but the scriptures state plainly enough that terrible things such as cancer, death, and the other tragedies of life are the result sin which has damaged and impacted this world, but God has a better eternity in store with no more tears, pain, or suffering.

Hmm, OK. Thank you for your input.

 

[Enoch07]

Hmmm... Does god respect the free will of angels as well? More so than humans? Because of Satan's choice, the vast majority of humanity will suffer in hell for all eternity (if you are a fundamentalist/southern baptist/ evangelical).

Only those that still chose Satan's side after our experience of life here on Earth is over. As I said above even the 1/3 of human souls that sided with Satan during the fall still have a chance at redemption in this life. This life is their 2nd chance to learn and make a decision of their own free will.

Without any physical proof of God, we must come to love Him even though terrible stuff happens to us.

It's easy to love a parent that spoils us and does not ask us to do any hard work.

It's hard to love a parent that ask us to work hard, and does not give us everything we want.

It's a test. A test to see which side everyone chooses of their own free will. That is why free will cannot be impeded upon by God or Satan.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hesekiel 18: "The father should not bare the guilt with the son and the son shall not bear the guilt with the father. Every man shall bare his own guilt. The soul who sin is the soul who die."

Interesting.... It says the soul dies. Aren't most people taught that the soul is immortal? Hmm...

 

[Enoch07]

Interesting.... It says the soul dies. Aren't most people taught that the soul is immortal? Hmm...

The soul is immortal in the sense it cannot die of old age. It can be killed though
This is known as the 2nd death or more commonly known as hell. Hell is not a place of eternal punishment. Hell is the soul being unmade and ceasing to exist.

 

[Prestor John]

No, because we have no foreknowledge of what a baby will do when it becomes an adult, so nothing the adult does was knowlingly enabled by the parent.

Does your god have foreknowledge of what will happen?

God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit.

It was part of His plan.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit.

It was part of His plan.

So then God is responsible for everything that flowed from that plan, including the evil.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

God knew that Adam and Eve would partake of the fruit.

It was part of His plan.

That can't be, because many times the Bible tells us that God was "hurt" by people's actions. If he knew, then he is a sado-masochist, and free-will really has no meaning.

 

[Akivah]

It was not a snake that spoke to Eve. Unless you believe snakes are capable of speech.

It was a talking snake. Do you think that G-d is unable to create one?