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How the Law (doesn't really), define "gender identity"

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
How? How has the term homosexuality changed since society has become more accepting to the behavior?
I was talking about the word "gay".

Then they are using the term out of context.
No, the opposite. They're using it within a given context that indicates a specific meaning.

If you gonna use terms out of context, it is up to you to state what you really mean; not up for me to me to figure it out by reading your mind.
If you don't understand that the phrase "minority groups" doesn't include white, straight men in the context of American demographics, your issue is not being unable to read minds.

Perhaps I already know the answer; but the person I was conversating with prior to you entering the conversation doesn't agree with my answer
But have they explained to you what they mean by "gender" in that context and how they determined there to be 72 categories of it?

If you take biology out of the picture, what does it mean to identify as a man?
You seriously believe biology is all there is to being identified as a man? You've literally never heard of the concept of "being a man" that is totally divorced from biological classification?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I disagree; I think most people agree on what politics is, what religion is, what race, patriotism, currency, etc. and all that other stuff you mentioned actually are.
Once again, you're obfuscating. It's not about what they ARE. We all understand what gender IS as a social construct. Where the disagreements lie is in the SPECIFICS of how and where these things apply. Gender is no different.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I was talking about the word "gay".
I was making the point that homosexuality means same sex attraction, and the fact that society is more accepting of it today than they were yesterday, has nothing to do with the meaning of the words. If you’re talking about something else, that’s a different conversation
No, the opposite. They're using it within a given context that indicates a specific meaning.


If you don't understand that the phrase "minority groups" doesn't include white, straight men in the context of American demographics, your issue is not being unable to read minds.
Then how are you defining minority groups?
But have they explained to you what they mean by "gender" in that context and how they determined there to be 72 categories of it?
If I recall, they just pointed to some website that did a terrible job of explaining it.
You seriously believe biology is all there is to being identified as a man? You've literally never heard of the concept of "being a man" that is totally divorced from biological classification?
In slang language, I’ve heard the term man that is divorced from biology; but then in slang I’ve heard the terms Dog, Cat, & Bruh, used in reference to biological human males also. But we aren’t talking about slang terms.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I was making the point that homosexuality means same sex attraction, and the fact that society is more accepting of it today than they were yesterday, has nothing to do with the meaning of the words. If you’re talking about something else, that’s a different conversation
Then what you're saying has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was about how words are used.

Then how are you defining minority groups?
It refers to smaller demographic groups and/or groups that do not hold a hegemonic position of power within a given society. It does not literally refer to any group which is not a literal majority, because then all groups would be minority groups and the distinction would be largely pointless.

Do you or do you not understand that, despite being statistically small proportion of the country, "straight white men" are not considered a minority group in America?

If I recall, they just pointed to some website that did a terrible job of explaining it.
Well then, take that up with them. It's not for me to argue or defend arguments I'm not making, and I can't comment on it without at least some elaboration.

In slang language, I’ve heard the term man that is divorced from biology; but then in slang I’ve heard the terms Dog, Cat, & Bruh, used in reference to biological human males also. But we aren’t talking about slang terms.
It's not "slang" to say that someone is "a man", or something is "manly", or comment on people "becoming men".

You have encountered this. You cannot pretend this is some edge case or slang usage. It's extremely common usage.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Both.

How could it not involve a personal feeling the individual has?
Well remember the OP is about legal definitions. So if laws are based on personal feelings, that opens up all manner of "cans of worms" issues.

As I've said many times, bad men are using these laws that are based on unfalsifiable personal feelings to harm women and girls.

And in case you want evidence, you can see 10 examples of bad men using these laws to harm women and girls in post #598 in this thread:

Gender reassignment/affirming surgery
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well remember the OP is about legal definitions. So if laws are based on personal feelings, that opens up all manner of "cans of worms" issues.

As I've said many times, bad men are using these laws that are based on unfalsifiable personal feelings to harm women and girls.

And in case you want evidence, you can see 10 examples of bad men using these laws to harm women and girls in post #598 in this thread:

Gender reassignment/affirming surgery

Well, laws are based in effect feelings as far as I can tell for what in effect matters. And no, we can't make them closer to objective, since objective and subjective are contradictiory to each other.
So feelings are if you check connect to the bold words above.

There is no evidence as objective that there are bad men and harm. In effect you don't understand objective and subjective. And no, your feeling that it would be better to get closer to objective, is only relevant if possible. And it is not.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It refers to smaller demographic groups and/or groups that do not hold a hegemonic position of power within a given society.
Straight white men do not hold a hegemonic position of power in this country. Politicians might, but politicians come in all racial and sexual demographics
It does not literally refer to any group which is not a literal majority,
Then explain this
The US will become 'minority white' in 2045, Census projects | Brookings
If majority/minority has nothing to do with actual numbers, what are they talking about when they say whites will become the minority in 2045?
because then all groups would be minority groups and the distinction would be largely pointless.
Depending on how you separate them, all groups can be a minority.
Do you or do you not understand that, despite being statistically small proportion of the country, "straight white men" are not considered a minority group in America?
I understand you have redefined minority in a way that exempts them. That doesn’t mean everybody does
It's not "slang" to say that someone is "a man", or something is "manly", or comment on people "becoming men".

You have encountered this. You cannot pretend this is some edge case or slang usage. It's extremely common usage.
Then answer my question! If you take biology out of the picture, what is a man?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Straight white men do not hold a hegemonic position of power in this country.
Wrong answer. They absolutely do.


Politicians might, but politicians come in all racial and sexual demographics
And the majority of politicians are...?


Then explain this
The US will become 'minority white' in 2045, Census projects | Brookings
If majority/minority has nothing to do with actual numbers, what are they talking about when they say whites will become the minority in 2045?
They're using the term literally and referring to all white people. They're not using the term to literally mean any demographic group that is not a literal majority, otherwise they would be saying that "straight, white men" are already a minority group, because they literally are. Yet we understand that when we refer to minority groups in demographic terms in America, we are not including straight, white men in that group.

Depending on how you separate them, all groups can be a minority.
Correct! It's almost as if the context and implications of the words you're using is influenced not purely by indisputable dictionary definitions, but by the broader social context in which you are saying it, and that using the phrase "minority group" cannot possibly be COMPLETELY LITERAL but a consequences of contextual understanding of those words.

I understand you have redefined minority in a way that exempts them.
It's not been "redefined". It's using a specific definition that is very widely understood and used.

That doesn’t mean everybody does
Literally everybody does. Even you understand that when people refer to "minority groups" in America, they are not including "straight white men" or "stamp collectors" or "shuffleboard players" or "people who regularly wear itchy trousers" despite understanding that, in the literal sense, these groups exist and represent a minority of the population. You understand that the phrase "minority groups" has a more specific definition in this context that is not necessarily reflective of the literal definition of those words.

You understand?

Then answer my question! If you take biology out of the picture, what is a man?
I've already answered this. Somebody who identifies as a man.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Well remember the OP is about legal definitions. So if laws are based on personal feelings, that opens up all manner of "cans of worms" issues.
Lots of things are based on "personal feelings." We are human, after all.
Mental illness is almost completely based on "personal feelings." Are you going to tell a clinically depressed person that they aren't depressed because "feelings?"

When we charge a person with "attempted murder" or "involuntary manslaughter" we are taking into account the "feelings" of the person being charged with the crime. Was their goal to murder the person, or was it accidental, as a result of some intentional action on their part?
As I've said many times, bad men are using these laws that are based on unfalsifiable personal feelings to harm women and girls.
We've had this discussion umpteen times already. You keep saying this over and over but have yet to actually demonstrate this is a problem.
The data I last shared with you showed that there is no significant increase in sexual assaults in women's bathrooms and change rooms. Do you remember that conversation?
And in case you want evidence, you can see 10 examples of bad men using these laws to harm women and girls in post #598 in this thread:

Gender reassignment/affirming surgery
I've already read this entire thread and participated in it.

Perhaps you remember J.K. Rowlings list of supposed cases of men hurting women, of which myself and other posters were only able to view one single example.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Lots of things are based on "personal feelings." We are human, after all.
Mental illness is almost completely based on "personal feelings." Are you going to tell a clinically depressed person that they aren't depressed because "feelings?"

When we charge a person with "attempted murder" or "involuntary manslaughter" we are taking into account the "feelings" of the person being charged with the crime. Was their goal to murder the person, or was it accidental, as a result of some intentional action on their part?
Overwhelmingly the law is based on evidence, not feelings. In your example above, we would be weighing the evidence far, far more than the perpetrator's feelings.

Perhaps you remember J.K. Rowlings list of supposed cases of men hurting women, of which myself and other posters were only able to view one single example.
I just pointed you to a later post that cleared up the access issue and provided access to ten examples.

Now you're saying "supposed examples". Really? How far will you contort yourself to defend these misogynistic laws?

I can only imagine that you're so, so invested in intersectionality theory that you're willing to do anything - including endangering women - to support it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Overwhelmingly the law is based on evidence, not feelings. In your example above, we would be weighing the evidence far, far more than the perpetrator's feelings.
You completely ignored everything I said.
I just pointed you to a later post that cleared up the access issue and provided access to ten examples.
This is the one I JUST talked about. I still haven't seen the rest. And I'm going to need something better than J.K. Rowling's twitter posts.
Now you're saying "supposed examples". Really? How far will you contort yourself to defend these misogynistic laws?
What misogynistic laws?

I can only imagine that you're so, so invested in intersectionality theory that you're willing to do anything - including endangering women - to support it.
Blah, blah. I am a woman. I do not want to endanger women. You have not shown that women are in any sort of increased danger.; You've tried this nonsense on me before as well.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You have not shown that women are in any sort of increased danger.; You've tried this nonsense on me before as well.
For perhaps the 3rd time now...

For some technical reason there was a problem some posters had reading the first link I provided. So I created a 2nd post with 6 attachments that show examples of 10 bad men who are using these laws to hurt women and girls.

I will now post this link AGAIN. Go to the link below and scroll down to post #598. You will see a number of attachments:

Gender reassignment/affirming surgery
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Then I challenge you to provide an outside source that supports your claim, because the links you provided do not do that. Those links addresses “men” (not straight white men) and white people (which also includes white women). Care to try again?
And the majority of politicians are...?

The majority of people are white, so it make sense that the majority of politicians would be white also.
Let’s look at this a different way. Have you ever heard of the Congressional Black Caucus? According to their own website, they represent over 25% of the US population. Black people represent 12% of the US population, yet black politicians in Congress represent more than twice the population number, black people represent, Keeping in mind; all black caucus members are black, but not all black people that go to congress chooses to join the black caucus. IOW if we were to count all the black people in congress; including those who chose to not join the CBC, it would be even more.

Never in the history of this country has any racial demographic accomplished these kind of numbers. Asians represent 5% of the US population but do Asian congressmen represent 10% of the US population? No. Mexicans represent 20% of the US population, but do Mexicans in congress represent 40% of the US population? Not even close. White people make up 65% of the US population; but do whites in Congress make up over 130% of the US population? Impossible.
To suggest black people don’t have political power in this country is to ignore reality.
They're using the term literally and referring to all white people. They're not using the term to literally mean any demographic group that is not a literal majority,
Yes! As I said before, majority/minority is about actual numbers. The problem with your point is you took a majority group, (white) and you kept breaking it down in term of sexuality, and gender; till the group was no longer a majority.
Literally everybody does. Even you understand that when people refer to "minority groups" in America, they are not including "straight white men" or "stamp collectors" or "shuffleboard players" or "people who regularly wear itchy trousers" despite understanding that, in the literal sense, these groups exist and represent a minority of the population.
I’ve never heard of them referring to straight black men either in reference to a minority group.
You understand that the phrase "minority groups" has a more specific definition in this context that is not necessarily reflective of the literal definition of those words.

You understand?
I understand that it is up to YOU to make it clear what you are talking about. If you want to use the term minority/majority in a way that has nothing to do with actual numbers, you need to make it clear; are you talking about racial minority, sexual minority, religious minority, etc. etc. don’t just go using the term minority and expect me to know what you are talking about; if you mean something other than numbers.
Somebody who identifies as a man.
Quit being circular and answer the question. What traits makes a person a man?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

Quit being circular and answer the question. What traits makes a person a man?

The problem I have with that is that so far I have only come accross different subjective norms for how to answer what should be considered relevant for a man to be a man.
Now if you can do that without being normative, I wiil listen, but you have to be able to understand your own claims as whether they are norms or not? Can you do that?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Then I challenge you to provide an outside source that supports your claim, because the links you provided do not do that. Those links addresses “men” (not straight white men) and white people (which also includes white women). Care to try again?
Are you serious? You genuinely think it's reasonably possible that the vast majority of white males in these reviews, polls and demographic studies weren't straight? Despite the fact that one of my sources lists the total number of openly non-straight members of congress as 13.


Do you know how demographics work?

The majority of people are white, so it make sense that the majority of politicians would be white also.
Again, you express a misunderstanding of demographics. You have acknowledged that white men (we'll leave out "straight" since it is fairly well documented that gay people are around 10% of the population, so their demographics can easily be accounted for) make up a MINORITY of the overall population, and yet they make up the MAJORITY of elected officials.

And your claim was that white men don't hold hegemonic power. That's the point. Despite being a LITERAL minority of the population, they hold THE MAJORITY of the power.

Let’s look at this a different way. Have you ever heard of the Congressional Black Caucus? According to their own website, they represent over 25% of the US population. Black people represent 12% of the US population, yet black politicians in Congress represent more than twice the population number, black people represent, Keeping in mind; all black caucus members are black, but not all black people that go to congress chooses to join the black caucus. IOW if we were to count all the black people in congress; including those who chose to not join the CBC, it would be even more.
Which has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the claim I'm making that straight, white men hold hegemonic power in America.

Also, I find it very interesting that just one post ago you completely ignored/disregarded the notion of demographic statistics and proportionality, but here you are apparently going pretty deep to desperately try and prove that one demographic groups a degree of disproportionate power that isn't even a significant majority of power. So why is it that you specifically ignore all of these factors when it comes to demonstrating the obvious and easily demonstrable fact that straight, white men hold the vast majority - and a disproportionate amount -of power in the US, both economically and legislatively, but when it comes to trying to prove how much power black legislators have you suddenly become an expert in demographic statistics?

I mean, seriously. Do you apply this exact same logic to the demographic of white, male lawmakers?

Never in the history of this country has any racial demographic accomplished these kind of numbers. Asians represent 5% of the US population but do Asian congressmen represent 10% of the US population? No. Mexicans represent 20% of the US population, but do Mexicans in congress represent 40% of the US population? Not even close. White people make up 65% of the US population; but do whites in Congress make up over 130% of the US population? Impossible.
Again, weird how you're suddenly aware of demographic proportional representation when a mere one post ago you were completely ignoring the whole concept and dismissing the idea that straight, white men hold hegemonic power in America without any reference to how much power they hold in comparison to their proportion of the population, and now you're positively obsessed with the proportional power of black legislators - something I have never once mentioned or contested.

Weird.

To suggest black people don’t have political power in this country is to ignore reality.
Good thing I never suggested it, then.

Yes! As I said before, majority/minority is about actual numbers.
So, you believe that when people use the phrase "minority groups", they are including yo-yo players? Bassoonists? Cartoonists?

The problem with your point is you took a majority group, (white)
Nope! I'm talking about straight, white men, which is a demographic group you have openly acknowledged is a literal minority of the population (around 30%) and yet control the vast majority of positions of power in the USA. That's the point.

and you kept breaking it down in term of sexuality, and gender; till the group was no longer a majority.
Because, believe it or not, groups can be broken down like that. Almost as if certain members of a demographic (say, white women) can still hold a position of a minority in terms of hegemonic power structures, despite belonging to a group (white people broadly) that holds a greater degree of hegemonic power. Is this idea new to you?

I’ve never heard of them referring to straight black men either in reference to a minority group.
Correct. And do you understand why?

I understand that it is up to YOU to make it clear what you are talking about. If you want to use the term minority/majority in a way that has nothing to do with actual numbers, you need to make it clear;
Do I need to make it clear that the phrase "minority groups" isn't referring to kite enthusiasts? Giraffe impersonators? Experimental dancers?

are you talking about racial minority, sexual minority, religious minority, etc. etc. don’t just go using the term minority and expect me to know what you are talking about; if you mean something other than numbers.
I've already explained what it means. Repeatedly.

Quit being circular and answer the question. What traits makes a person a man?
I've said it multiple times. Identifying as a man. That's not circular.
 
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