How the Poor and Working Class Can Finally Break the Democratic Party.

[Magic Man]

Its not a matter if who is worse. Its a matter of them constant saying its them not us.

Ignoring that both sides are part of the problem is why we are in a mess.

The right ignores their own problems and only focus on the left.
The left ignores their own problems and only focus on the right.

When an old convicted felon and an old mentally failing are the two chosen to lead this country, that should be a big red flag.
Yet both parties were fine with their choice, make/made excuses for their choice, and even though both choices are bad, think their choice is good.(though now one has been forced out).

As another poster pointed out, we only have choices of the lesser of two evils.
Used to people voted for the best candidate, not the lesser evil. Those days have disappeared.

It used to be 'vote for us because...'
Now its 'vote for us or else...'

It is a matter of who is worse. It's like having the option of stubbing your toe vs. having your legs amputated. You might not want either to happen, but it's silly to talk about them as if they're equivalent. (And even this analogy fails because ultimately democrats aren't even like stubbing your toe, as they are at least working toward the right things.)

And this is just more "both sides"ism, which is precisely the problem, as I already laid out. It's not the lesser of two evils. It's one party that mostly works toward the right things but isn't perfect, and another party that is completely off the rails and actively working toward destroying the country.

All you've done here is equivocate, which helps the extremism on the right. I'm going to vote for Kamala, not because she's the lesser of two evils, but because she's a good candidate. She's not my ideal candidate, but no one ever will be. I'm always going to have to compromise at least a little bit. But of course, it's also true that I'll vote for the democrat because the other option is so abhorrently terrible that I want to avoid that. That doesn't mean that's my only or even main motivation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

And yet the what prosperity, social services, rights and comforts we do enjoy are almost entirely a products of liberal, usually Democratic, legislation, and almost all of these were vigorously opposed by the conservative Republicans.

What a laugh particularly coming from the People's Republic of New York where they have the highest taxes in the nation and working class people barely has any money left in their wallet.

 

[Magic Man]

What a laugh particularly coming from the People's Republic of New York where they have the highest taxes in the nation and working class people barely has any money left in their wallet.

There's nothing inherently wrong with high taxes. The important part is what you get for them, and that's the current problem in America. Northern European countries tend to have high taxes, but they're also some of the happiest countries in the world, partly because they get a lot for their taxes.

 

[Valjean]

This "both sides"ism is one of the biggest reasons for the mess we're in. Making it seem like both parties are equally bad and equally guilty of all of this stuff gives people the impression that the extremism on the right is just par for the course and nothing to get outraged about. It allows the right to keep pushing farther and farther in that direction, because it's all "just typical politics".

It's true that democrats are far from perfect, and that they sometimes engage in "typical politics". Some of them get rich through politics. Some manipulate the media and their base. But there's such an immense difference between democrats in general and republicans that it's silly to lump them together like this and pretend they're equally bad (or even close to equally bad).

The republicans are organized.

*They do extensive linguistic testing on the connotations and associations of individual words used in ads and propaganda.
*They've monopolized the media and cancelled the Fairness Act. With corporate underwriting they can provide free, right-wing only radio shows across the country, where the balanced or leftist broadcasters have to charge for each program to stay afloat.
*They farm out targeted legislation to ALEC -- the American Legislative Exchange Council. Members just outline what they're trying to effect and where, and ALEC will write a bill for the legislator to introduce tailor made to achieve the requested results. If successful, they'll crank out similar bills tailored to other states or legislative districts.
*They have pre-written contingency legislation, shelved and awaiting an advantageous opportunity like the Klein Shock of 9/11, after which they quickly pushed the USA Patriot act through congress.
*They are masters of both types of Big Lie: The scattershot approach, where a claim is made from multiple media outlets and repeated often enough that the public is convinced it must be true; and the original design, where claims are made that are so outrageous that the public's convinced noöne would have the audacity to make such a claim if there weren't something to it.

 

[Valjean]

I've never polled "Liberal Democrats,' nor am I interested in castigating them.

I do, however, have exceedingly little regard for those who bloviate sophomorically about them.

I had my new cat castigated at the vet's a couple of months ago.....

 

[Valjean]

There's nothing inherently wrong with high taxes. The important part is what you get for them, and that's the current problem in America. Northern European countries tend to have high taxes, but they're also some of the happiest countries in the world, partly because they get a lot for their taxes.

Exactly! Those taxes can buy you affordable housing, high wages, looooooong paid vacations, free or inexpensive healthcare, free education through university, &al -- even with unskilled jobs.
The American working class could not afford what many Europeans take for granted -- paid for with their tax dollars.

 

[Valjean]

Workers of the world, unite?

Certainly -- you have nothing to lose but your chains.

 

[Kathryn]

Exactly! Those taxes can buy you affordable housing, high wages, looooooong paid vacations, free or inexpensive healthcare, free education through university, &al -- even with unskilled jobs.
The American working class could not afford what many Europeans take for granted -- paid for with their tax dollars.

I wish they'd pay for more of their own defense out of their tax dollars.

Total defense expenditure of the European Defense Agency (EDA) Member States was €214 billion in 2021, which was 1.5% of the 26 EDA Member States’ GDP, the same percentage as in 2020. The US pays a whole lot more, a WHOLE lot more. More than double that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I wish they'd pay for more of their own defense out of their tax dollars.

Total defense expenditure of the European Defense Agency (EDA) Member States was €214 billion in 2021, which was 1.5% of the 26 EDA Member States’ GDP, the same percentage as in 2020. The US pays a whole lot more, a WHOLE lot more.

Is EDA the European part of NATO? If not, then please use NATO and please leave out Iceland.

 

[Kathryn]

Is EDA the European part of NATO? If not, then please use NATO and please leave out Iceland.

2 percent on average, which includes the US.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

2 percent on average, which includes the US.

I didn't ask that! I asked if EDA is the European NATO members?

 

[Kathryn]

I didn't ask that! I asked if EDA is the European NATO members?

You said this:

"If not, then please use NATO and please leave out Iceland."

Which I did. The rest is on you I guess.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You said this:

"If not, then please use NATO and please leave out Iceland."

Which I did. The rest is on you I guess.

Okay.
"“In 2024, NATO Allies in Europe will invest a combined total of 380 billion US dollars in defence. For the first time, this amounts to 2% of their combined GDP," said Mr Stoltenberg."

Loading…

www.nato.int

 

[Kathryn]

Okay.
"“In 2024, NATO Allies in Europe will invest a combined total of 380 billion US dollars in defence. For the first time, this amounts to 2% of their combined GDP," said Mr Stoltenberg."

Loading…

www.nato.int

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Kathryn
Yeah, but you didn't use the newest numbers and you used EU numbers as far as I can tell.

 

[Kathryn]

@Kathryn
Yeah, but you didn't use the newest numbers and you used EU numbers as far as I can tell.

LOL I used the first numbers from a reputable source that popped up. And I did not use "EU numbers."

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

LOL I used the first numbers from a reputable source that popped up.

Yeah, now the USA has more defense obligations than NATO so it makes sense that it uses a bigger share of its GDP, unless you want to claim that NATO as such must defend all of the USA's commitments, say e.g. South Korea.

 

[Magic Man]

I wish they'd pay for more of their own defense out of their tax dollars.

Total defense expenditure of the European Defense Agency (EDA) Member States was €214 billion in 2021, which was 1.5% of the 26 EDA Member States’ GDP, the same percentage as in 2020. The US pays a whole lot more, a WHOLE lot more. More than double that.

I think you have it backward. The U.S. spends way too much on our military. Vastly more than is necessary for "defense".

And then the question is why you think what they spend affects America. Do you think we're using our "defense" spending to protect Europe? In what way? For instance, take Ukraine. Europe has given them more money in aid than America has. But that's a separate thing from how much each country spends on their military.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't care one way or the other about NATO, which is why I was using other sources.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't see how anyone is still dumb enough to believe the whores in Washington (including many whores on the state and local level, as well) still care a bit about the American people. They are beholden to lobbyists and billionaire donors. They're letting over 23 million Americans be thrown off of Medicaid as we speak. But handouts for foreign countries.