How to Account for Differences in Health Outcomes of Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated Children?

[Nous]

I'm not going to be able to dissect all that technical information, but my initial thought would be the negative effects of vaccination on a population are much less than an unvaccinated population experiencing outbreaks of the diseases they have been vaccinated against.

I'm unsure what you mean by “negative effects,” but the Mawson et al. study found that, compared to the group of unvaccinated 6-12-year-olds, the vaccinated group of children had lower ratios of chickenpox, whooping cough and rubella, but higher ratios of otitis media (ear infection), pneumonia, allergies, allergic rhinitis (hay fever), ADHD, Autistic Spectrum Disorders, eczema, Learning Disability, other chronic conditions, use of allergy drugs, use of antibiotics in the past year, use of fever medications 1+ times, use of ear drainage tubes, one or more emergency room visits in the past year, sick visits to doctor, and to have ever spent a night in the hospital. Which group had you rather be in? Which group would you rather your child to be in?

The thing is, as the authors suggest, unless and except for any diseases that are an unavoidable and inherent consequence of a vaccine (which is apparently the case for otitis media, and possibly others) or the vaccination schedule, there is really no need for one to be given such a Hobson's choice as to be in one of the above groups or the other. There is no reason, as far as I know, that vaccines themselves should result in higher rates of neurodevelopmental disorders. There is every reason to suspect that the higher rate of NDDs among the vaccinated group is due to exposing fetuses, infants and children to ethylmercury and aluminum.

 

[Nous]

That's a lot to read; I didn't even get around to understanding what your intention is with this thread.

The only question I asked is: How can one account for the Mawson et al. findings?

I provided my best guess as an explanation for these findings, according to the evidence gotten from the peer-reviewed literature, some of which I noted above.

But I'll throw in.

Here's Jenny McCarthy, a vocal member of the anti-vaxxer movement

I'd say it's only wise to stick with the scientific literature if you are trying to provide an account of scientific findings.

 

[Nous]

Are we being conned by the ones who stand to gain financially from our ignorance?

I am unaware of any evidence that anyone (say, at the CDC or FDA) is intentionally doing anything evil for monetary gain. Perhaps negligently.

 

[Deeje]

@Poisonshady313 The CDC reported....in 2012. . . .

"About 1 in 68 children has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC’s Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network."

If the CDC doesn't get it right then who can you believe?

There is a lot of misinformation and propaganda out there. Consider the treatment of cancer by the orthodox medical system and see why their only interest is in 'treatment' of the condition, poisoning a already sick body, ensuring that their 'medicines' will be administered till these poor souls breathe their last. No cures will ever be offered because there is no money in cures.

Consider who has the vested interest in promoting vaccinations, despite the mounting evidence of their ineffectiveness and often devastating consequences? Then consider why there is such a strong anti-vax movement based on the stats. These brain damaged children have to be cared for, for the rest of their lives. They will probably need medications throughout that period.....customers for life. Follow the money trail. The system is more corrupt than most people realise.

 

[Nous]

Diagnosing things has increased at even greater rate than vaccinations.

Who knows if the rise in autism is real or just better diagnosis.

If it is real, it could be enhanced by any of the factors that have changed over the years in the products we use, from food enhancments to household products, and even genetic engineered food. Medicatoins of all sorts, as well as included chemicals in all and any of these.

While vaccinations have been demonised, there is almost no undisputed evidence of the link to autism.. indeed the doctor who first introduced the idea has been struck off over it.

I did a bunch of multiquotes to address the issue of rates of diagnoses before I saw your two posts.

The diagnostic criteria for Autism/ASD has broaden since the 1980s. I saw where someone speculated that with the newest definition in the DSM-5, the diagnosis might become less common.

In any case, ASD, ADHD, LD and other sorts of disorders are not diagnosed on the basis of any objective biological measurement. These days parents and teachers are definitely more willing to seek out a diagnosis for a child that would not have gotten a diagnosis 30 years ago, and doctors are more willing to give the diagnosis and to prescribe a drug for it.

 

[Deeje]

Who knows if the rise in autism is real or just better diagnosis.

Do any of us remember damaged kids to the extent that we have today? I know so many families with autistic kids. I never knew any when I was growing up.

If it is real, it could be enhanced by any of the factors that have changed over the years in the products we use, from food enhancments to household products, and even genetic engineered food. Medicatoins of all sorts, as well as included chemicals in all and any of these.

No doubt these all play a role in a nation's ill health. Vaccinations just add another component to the "ill health" industry.

While vaccinations have been demonised, there is almost no undisputed evidence of the link to autism.. indeed the doctor who first introduced the idea has been struck off over it.

Most doctors will not buck the system for this very reason. If they dare to step outside of the orthodox framework, they risk losing their licence and their livelihood.

 

[Deeje]

These days parents and teachers are definitely more willing to seek out a diagnosis for a child that would not have gotten a diagnosis 30 years ago, and doctors are more willing to give the diagnosis and to prescribe a drug for it.

Bingo!

We all remember kids at school in the old days who had behavioral issues, but nothing close to what teachers have to contend with these days. It isn't a coincidence that the rate of autism has increased with the number of vaccinations.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The money trail is very different in the UK.
The drugs that hospitals and doctors can prescribe is the decision of NICE a non commercial government appointed body. Hospitals and doctors have budgets that they must fall in line with.
There is no advantage for them to perfom unnecessary treatments or give out unnecessary drugs.
If they exceed their budgets it impinges on their take home pay.
Drug manufactures presenting new drugs must demonstrate that not only is the treatment effective but is cost effective compared to any other treatment before NICE will allow it to be used in the NHS.
It is in the doctors interest to prescribe generic drugs wherever possible.

The private sector is still relatively small and so is the private health insurance market.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do any of us remember damaged kids to the extent that we have today? I know so many families with autistic kids. I never knew any when I was growing up.



No doubt these all play a role in a nation's ill health. Vaccinations just add another component to the "ill health" industry.




Most doctors will not buck the system for this very reason. If they dare to step outside of the orthodox framework, they risk losing their licence and their livelihood.

Austistic kids fell under the general category of ESN, educationally sub normal, or mentally disabled.
They were generally sent to special schools, or schools for children with behavioural problems.
There was no seperate diagnosis for autism.
Like the poor they have always been with us.

On a similar vein, where have all the village idiots gone?
They are of course still with us, but have been recatagorised

 

[Nous]

Bingo!

We all remember kids at school in the old days who had behavioral issues, but nothing close to what teachers have to contend with these days. It isn't a coincidence that the rate of autism has increased with the number of vaccinations.

I believe both that the rate of such NDDs has actually increased and that there is diagnostic substitution and diagnosis for the same behaviors that wouldn't have been considered pathological 30 years ago.

And BTW, note the Mawson et al. findings have nothing to do with increased rates. The study provides only a cross-sectional snapshot of the health outcomes among vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Bingo!

We all remember kids at school in the old days who had behavioral issues, but nothing close to what teachers have to contend with these days. It isn't a coincidence that the rate of autism has increased with the number of vaccinations.

There is a far sronger relationship between problem children with autism and who are from problem families than with vaccinations..
Problem families are also far less likely to have had their children vaccinated. Which further breaks the link.

Any family might have one or more autistic children. Though all or none of them might have been vaccinated, and live in the same environment.

 

[Nous]

There is a far sronger relationship between problem children with autism and who are from problem families than with vaccinations.

There is? Cite that evidence.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm unsure what you mean by “negative effects,” but the Mawson et al. study found that, compared to the group of unvaccinated 6-12-year-olds, the vaccinated group of children had lower ratios of chickenpox, whooping cough and rubella, but higher ratios of otitis media (ear infection), pneumonia, allergies, allergic rhinitis (hay fever), ADHD, Autistic Spectrum Disorders, eczema, Learning Disability, other chronic conditions, use of allergy drugs, use of antibiotics in the past year, use of fever medications 1+ times, use of ear drainage tubes, one or more emergency room visits in the past year, sick visits to doctor, and to have ever spent a night in the hospital. Which group had you rather be in? Which group would you rather your child to be in?

The thing is, as the authors suggest, unless and except for any diseases that are an unavoidable and inherent consequence of a vaccine (which is apparently the case for otitis media, and possibly others) or the vaccination schedule, there is really no need for one to be given such a Hobson's choice as to be in one of the above groups or the other. There is no reason, as far as I know, that vaccines themselves should result in higher rates of neurodevelopmental disorders. There is every reason to suspect that the higher rate of NDDs among the vaccinated group is due to exposing fetuses, infants and children to ethylmercury and aluminum.

What I was saying was a population even suffering the negative effects of vaccination is better off than a population with polio. small pox, etc. outbreaks.

It's possible I am not understanding something your getting at. I am saying the disease is still worse than the cure.

 

[Nous]

What I was saying was a population even suffering the negative effects of vaccination is better off than a population with polio. small pox, etc. outbreaks.

There were no such outbreaks in the unvaccinated population in the Mawson et al. study.

Again, which group in this study would you rather be in, or would rather your child to be in: the group who had higher rates of chickenpox, whooping cough and rubella, or the group that had higher rates of otitis media, pneumonia, allergies, allergic rhinitis, ADHD, Autistic Spectrum Disorders, eczema, Learning Disability, other chronic conditions, use of allergy drugs, use of antibiotics in the past year, use of fever medications 1+ times, use of ear drainage tubes, one or more emergency room visits in the past year, sick visits to doctor, and to have ever spent a night in the hospital?

BTW, what do you believe explains these differences in health outcomes between the two groups?

 

[George-ananda]

There were no such outbreaks in the unvaccinated population in the Mawson et al. study.

My thought is that if everybody was unvaccinated there would be outbreaks of the diseases. I am saying the diseases being vaccinated for themselves are even worse than the cure, so continue with the cure.

BTW, what do you believe explains these differences in health outcomes between the two groups?

It may well be the vaccinations for all I know.

 

[Deeje]

There is a far sronger relationship between problem children with autism and who are from problem families than with vaccinations.

Understanding the difference between a badly behaved, undisciplined child from a troubled background and one who is brain damaged and out of control, is not that difficult, IMO. Teachers these days are trained to spot the difference.

Problem families are also far less likely to have had their children vaccinated. Which further breaks the link.

Vaccination programs here in Australia are free. Parents, even the poorest ones, have no real excuse not to vaccinate their children and are prompted by their doctors to do so, even penalized if they don't. Schools too implement the "booster" shots.

But ask your self....if this is true immunization, which naturally occurs in any body invaded by a virus, the immunization is for life...no boosters are necessary because the antibodies produced by the immune system to combat that virus, remain for life. That is true immunization.

"Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children and protect them with vaccine exemption forms are often chastised and stereotyped for putting their own kids at risk. But what is even stranger than this assault on individual freedom and informed choice, is that these concerned parents are attacked for putting vaccinated children at risk.

These attacks are based on the theory of “herd immunity.” This hypothesis was plucked out of an old college textbook. It states that the more people are immune to an infectious agent, the less likely an immune-compromised individual is to come in contact with it. In other words herd immunity serves as a human shield – a type of immunity – for “at-risk” individuals. But remember, it’s only a hypothesis.

When outbreaks arise among children, health officials are quick to state that it’s due to a breakdown in ‘herd immunity.‘ Doctors parrot it too, without even looking at the research. They say it’s happening more often nationwide as states make it easier for parents to opt out of vaccinations.

Like argumentative apes, pro-vaccine parents and their physicians start pounding their chest in favor of such statements. They use them to attack anti-vaccine parents, accusing them of “putting vaccinated kids at risk due to a breakdown in herd immunity.”

This is fuzzy logic. And it’s borderline stupid.

After all, if vaccines truly worked, then why would vaccinated kids be at risk?

…Plus, the spread of infection isn’t limited to coming into contact with another person! You can get sick without ever seeing another individual. Therefore, herd immunity is nothing more than a silly catch-phrase used to scare and bully parents into vaccinating their kids. Don’t fall for it parents, keep using the vaccine exemption forms to legally avoid them.

https://thepeopleschemist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/vaccineworked.png

Any family might have one or more autistic children. Though all or none of them might have been vaccinated, and live in the same environment.

It appears as if there may be a gastro-intestinal link to autism, triggered by the MMR shot. The gut is often referred to as the "second brain". Some children have sensitivities to foods like wheat and dairy, both highly processed foods in today's world with links to GMO's. Some children appear to be unaffected by vaccination, whilst others are not. We had one medico here in Australia who treated autistic kids with just a diet devoid of all wheat and dairy products. No drugs. He was very successful in turning the behavior of these children into a more normal range, but his colleagues in the medical profession were not very supportive of his methods despite his success. He wasn't recommending "approved" therapy.
They are a very indoctrinated lot....a bit like evolutionists.

 

[Deeje]

* Please notice the disclaimer in the box. What is the only reason for that action being undertaken by law?

 

[Nous]

My thought is that if everybody was unvaccinated there would be outbreaks of the diseases. I am saying the diseases being vaccinated for themselves are even worse than the cure, so continue with the cure.


It may well be the vaccinations for all I know.

Clearly, Mawson et al. want "to verify and understand these unexpected findings in order to optimize the impact of vaccines on children’s health." Assuming that the associations with terrible disorders such as NDDs and the other diseases noted in this study are not the effects of the vaccines themselves (but are the effects of, e.g., mercury and/or aluminum in the vaccines or of the schedule), then there is no reason to not try to cure these problems.

Some vaccines might ultimately need to dropped from the schedule. No vaccine should be considered religion. If certain vaccines cannot be made effective without aluminum adjuvants, then perhaps it is just as well to eliminate that vaccine. If it is unavoidable to vaccinate against pneumococcal bacteria without bacteria substitution, then it's probably best to just let the human immune system respond naturally the pneumococcal bacteria.

Having the flu is unpleasant, I'm sure (I never get more than a head code and sore throat for less than a week every couple of years--I've never gotten sick enough from "something going around" that I needed to go to the doctor), but it probably isn't worth getting injected with, or exposing one's fetus to, a dose of heavy metals.

 

[Nous]

Some children have sensitivities to foods like wheat and dairy, both highly processed foods in today's world with links to GMO's.

Note that I "liked" your post, except for what I have quote here. to which I ask, "Say what?" "Food sensitivities" are linked to GMOs? Where did you get that?

 

[George-ananda]

Clearly, Mawson et al. want "to verify and understand these unexpected findings in order to optimize the impact of vaccines on children’s health." Assuming that the associations with terrible disorders such as NDDs and the other diseases noted in this study are not the effects of the vaccines themselves (but are the effects of, e.g., mercury and/or aluminum in the vaccines or of the schedule), then there is no reason to not try to cure these problems.

Some vaccines might ultimately need to dropped from the schedule. No vaccine should be considered religion. If certain vaccines cannot be made effective without aluminum adjuvants, then perhaps it is just as well to eliminate that vaccine. If it is unavoidable to vaccinate against pneumococcal bacteria without bacteria substitution, then it's probably best to just let the human immune system respond naturally the pneumococcal bacteria.

Having the flu is unpleasant, I'm sure (I never get more than a head code and sore throat for less than a week every couple of years--I've never gotten sick enough from "something going around" that I needed to go to the doctor), but it probably isn't worth getting injected with, or exposing one's fetus to, a dose of heavy metals.

I would think everyone would agree that we should continue trying to create better vaccinations.

However, my key question is that at this time, isn't it still better to have everyone vaccinated than no one vaccinated?

Are you saying our annual flu shot vaccination is even suspected here?