How to deal with mini-nazis?

[lunakilo]

Lately I have had some unplesant 'conversations' with a person who in my opinion has some very nasty opinions.

I met this person at a meeting with people who where building a spaceship (a very interesting story also, but I will just skip that one for now )
At the meeting we talked about rockets, not politics.
Later I found this person on facebook and added him as a friend which of cause means I can now see all the nasty stuff he posts on his wall.
Some of the stuff he posts is of the sort "immigrants are evil".

I commented on some of his posts. The verbal exchange was not very politicallly correct, and in the end he decided to block me.
He later showed me mercy and renewed our facebook 'friendship', and now I kind of consider myself a spy in the enemy camp.
I really want to see what he posts to get an idea of what goes on on his head, and in the heads of his friends.

This whole exchange with him and his friends really chocked my.
I have heard of people with these views, but I have never actually met anyone willing to express them.

I guess that I shouldn't be as surprised as I am that people like him exist, after all Europe is filled with right-wing, xenophobic and nantionalistic political parties.
The danish version of this trend is called the Danish People's Party.
They have the support of about 15% of the population, and even among the 'ordenary' political parties there is a lot of support of the ides of "let's throw out all the immigrants, build a wall around the country an pretend the outside world doesn't exist".
Many restrictions on immigration have been implemented in the last 10 years or so (the current government owes its power to the suppoert of the Danish People's Party).

I think one of the reasons these parties have so many supporters is that people don't like changes, especially not when they happen quickly.
30 years ago, there where very few immigrants in Denmark, especially outside the larger towns. But now there are many.
This change into a multiethnic, multicultural society has been to much to fast for many people.

So how do you keep these mini-nazis from gaining more and more power?
You can't just ignore that many people are uneasy about the situation, they may be silly old people, but they vote too.
It is not enough to be against the ways things are, you also need an alternative plan to make things better.

Any ideas?

 

[Vendetta]

A few questions:

First off what are "mini-nazis"? Are you referring to white supremist slash political party?

Second, aside from the urge of being nosy, why be friends with someone who has hostile views.of.others especially if his views has racial overtones.

 

[Caladan]

If this guy is a successful scientist. I don't see what the problem is.
its his political opinions. and you can debate them as much as you can. but they are his. and its completely not uncommon to have hostile opinions against immigrants.
How do I keep these 'mini-nazis' from gaining power?
I debate them. until they realize we share a common goal. mainly the prosperity of our respective cultures, and an economic stability. and of course their security, perhaps above all the rest.
You'll be surprised how many people who considered themselves to be a modern version of Nazi philosophy in the world have converted to my side.
as for multiculturalism and the people who challenge it. multiculturalism is not meant to be an easy ride. and it never will be.

 

[lunakilo]

First off what are "mini-nazis"? Are you referring to white supremist slash political party?

When I say mini-nazis, I am talking about all the right-wing, xenophobic and nationalistic political parties in Europe and to the people who sympathize.

I call them mini-nazis because I don't think thay are quite as bad as the real nazis.
Generally they just want the people they don't like to go away so they can live their lives the way they want to.

Second, aside from the urge of being nosy, why be friends with someone who has hostile views.of.others especially if his views has racial overtones.

As I said, I didn't know his views untill I became friends with him on facebook, and I doubt that blocking him will change his views, it will just prevent me from seeing what he posts.

 

[lunakilo]

If this guy is a successful scientist. I don't see what the problem is.
its his political opinions. and you can debate them as much as you can. but they are his. and its completely not uncommon to have hostile opinions against immigrants.
How do I keep these 'mini-nazis' from gaining power?
I debate them. until they realize we share a common goal. mainly the prosperity of our respective cultures, and an economic stability. and of course their security, perhaps above all the rest.
You'll be surprised how many people who considered themselves to be a modern version of Nazi philosophy in the world have converted to my side.
as for multiculturalism and the people who challenge it. multiculturalism is not meant to be an easy ride. and it never will be.

So what do you do if they won't debate you?
If they just want to listen to them selves and the people who agree with them?

 

[Caladan]

So what do you do if they won't debate you?
If they just want to listen to them selves and the people who agree with them?

Well. that would be a first.
these people don't hold their distinct ideas for nothing. they are eager to debate them.
secondly. many if not most people, want to listen to their own ideas and to listen to the people who agree with these ideas.

 

[LuisDantas]

If this guy is a successful scientist. I don't see what the problem is.

its his political opinions. and you can debate them as much as you can. but they are his. and its completely not uncommon to have hostile opinions against immigrants.

I would say that you answered your own question.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think one of the reasons these parties have so many supporters is that people don't like changes, especially not when they happen quickly.
30 years ago, there where very few immigrants in Denmark, especially outside the larger towns. But now there are many.
This change into a multiethnic, multicultural society has been to much to fast for many people.

Spot on. Caladan is correct when he says that such a transition is not easy, or even supposed to be easy. Right-wing authoritarism (in fact, any authoritarism) is fueled by a combination of fear and the desire to attach oneself to authority figures that offer a hope for simple, easy (and often grotesque) "solutions".

So how do you keep these mini-nazis from gaining more and more power?

It is by no means easy, but the best approach as far as I know is to deny them the opportunity to keep isolated and fearful. Essentially, there is a need to earn their trust and keep them integrated with a changing society.

You can't just ignore that many people are uneasy about the situation, they may be silly old people, but they vote too.
It is not enough to be against the ways things are, you also need an alternative plan to make things better.

Any ideas?

There is a book that I will PM you about.

 

[Father Heathen]

Is anti-immigration necessarily racist? It's understandable to be apprehensive towards those who would live among you yet hold no respect for your culture.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is anti-immigration necessarily racist? It's understandable to be apprehensive towards those who would live among you yet hold no respect for your culture.

Racist? No, not at all.

Dangerous? Yes, definitely. Very much so, and largely because it is so understandable.

 

[Caladan]

I would say that you answered your own question.

I would say that you have cherry picked a single passage from a complete post.

 

[LuisDantas]

The part that I find significant, yes.

I simply don't find the rest particularly relevant. Or rather, I didn't at the time I posted. I do now.

Mainly because, your fortunate experience aside (and I mean it; your experience is obviously fortunate in this regard) it is atypical. The most significant challenge with right wing authoritarians is managing to keep a good, healthy, meaningful dialog with them.

Truth be told, authoritarians would be very unlikely to exist if they felt safe and integrated.

 

[Caladan]

The part that I find significant, yes.

I simply don't find the rest particularly relevant. Or rather, I didn't at the time I posted. I do now.

Mainly because, your fortunate experience aside (and I mean it; your experience is obviously fortunate in this regard) it is atypical. The most significant challenge with right wing authoritarians is managing to keep a good, healthy, meaningful dialog with them.

Truth be told, authoritarians would be very unlikely to exist if they felt safe and integrated.

It is certainly not atypical where I come from. the year Israel was created, the modern state that is. was the year it began formal relations with South Africa, which was under the Apartheid government. in the 80's we've offered them weapons to counter the Soviet infiltration into the sub-Saharan region, after visiting their front lines in the areas in which their army was deployed.
In the 70's there was an American rumour that we are developing a nuclear program for the South Africans.
This doesn't contradict the fact that a couple of decades or even less later. we've airlifted more than 14,000 Ethiopians into Israel, when their government was in danger of being toppled by Eritrean and Tigrean rebels.

Life in the political world, and on the street are really basic. it doesn't matter if you consider yourself to be racist. if you consider yourself to be a young aspiring Islamist. there is always a bigger fish. and if you look closely enough. you will see that all members of all groups are after the same very basics.
security. and through hard work, prosperity.
this means, that you can do business with anyone, at any given time. and promote an understanding between the two sides, as opposed as they may seem to you.
that way. not only did you neutralized a potential threat of strife with another group, but you have planted the seed of economic growth. as tiny as it may seem. and once this has been planted. the two sides will have the interest not to conflict with each other's interest in significant ways.

 

[lunakilo]

Is anti-immigration necessarily racist?

No, but usually immigrants look differently, and very quickly people start putting people who look different into the "evil immigranr box".

It's understandable to be apprehensive towards those who would live among you yet hold no respect for your culture.

If they honestly don't hold any respect for your culture, yes I guess so.

But then again what is 'your culture'?
I have noticed that different people in the same country often think of their culture as being different things.
When people complain that someone is does not respect their culture it is often just a way of saying that that someone did something I don't like and I will blame that on him being from a different culture.

I am not trying to say that there are no culture clashes when people from different places of the world meet, and I am not saying that those clashes don't cause problems, but I have heard that phrase used once to often by people who long for the 'good old days' and blame the new arrivals for ruining everything.

 

[Kathryn]

Seek first to understand. One of my life mottos.

 

[Mahatma Gandhi]

Anti-immigrants are racist. The argument that immigrants don't respect 'your' culture is dubious on three counts:

What the heck is your culture? It varies from individual to individual.

How is an immigrant to 'prove' that he loves your culture? Must he take a test?

Finally, immigrants move to your country for economic reasons. Labor moves toward capital; that's the law of economics. And since the west has enough capital, thanks to its centuries-old plunder of third-world nations, third-world people are immigrating to nations where their labor power can be used. It's all about demand and supply: the west has capital, the rest has labor. The fault, therefore, is with the west for being thieves and murderers - and worst of all, hypocrites.

So whiteys should stop whining about immigrants taking away their jobs and not respecting their culture. After all, whiteys respected nobody's culture while invading other countries and committing one genocide after another.

 

[Kathryn]

I agree that the idea of immigrants "respecting our culture" is a bit of a difficult concept.

I live in Texas. We are awash with immigrants, both legal and illegal. Professionally, it has become a serious impediment for me to to not speak Spanish, and I am strongly considering learning to do so.

In Texas, "whiteys" are now officially fewer in number than non whites. Yep, white folks are the minority here now.

Yes, Texan culture has changed. But cultural changes are inevitable as demographics shift. The "white dominated" Texan culture of thirty years ago was a change from the culture in place 150 years ago.

Do I LIKE the changes in my local culture? Actually for the most part, I'm fine with it. I have a couple of choices which I consider to be morally acceptable. I can either move, or I can stay here and adapt. As long as my Hispanic neighbors treat me decently, I intend to stay.

Besides, the food is great, in spite of the bad music.

 

[LuisDantas]

Anti-immigrants are racist. The argument that immigrants don't respect 'your' culture is dubious on three counts:

What the heck is your culture? It varies from individual to individual.

So true. I'm a Brazilian who dislikes soccer and beer. How come?

How is an immigrant to 'prove' that he loves your culture? Must he take a test?

For that matter, why would natives be excused from such a need to prove said love? Is it even a good thing to begin with?

Finally, immigrants move to your country for economic reasons. Labor moves toward capital; that's the law of economics. And since the west has enough capital, thanks to its centuries-old plunder of third-world nations, third-world people are immigrating to nations where their labor power can be used.

There is some truth to that, but there is also another valid, opposite side to be considered. Third world nations are not always victims, and even when they are it is not always due to external interference.

More to the point, people in general can hardly be faulted for being afraid of deep changes in the job market and general culture. Even if it turns out that those changes are due to deliberate malice from their own government, well, that is weak consolation. People don't necessarily even support their own governments, but they can't help but desire some degree of job and financial security.

It's all about demand and supply: the west has capital, the rest has labor. The fault, therefore, is with the west for being thieves and murderers - and worst of all, hypocrites.

That is a dangerous generalization. And a potentialy racist one at that. One must not assume that the criminal ways of certain governments (not necessarily the current ones) are typical of the general population. Most important of all, one must allow people to be recognized for their efforts at not doing wrong.

So whiteys should stop whining about immigrants taking away their jobs and not respecting their culture. After all, whiteys respected nobody's culture while invading other countries and committing one genocide after another.

See how easily it is to enter the slippery slope?

 

[lunakilo]

How is an immigrant to 'prove' that he loves your culture? Must he take a test?

I don't know if I should laugh or cry, but yes, that is how it is done in Denmark

And something like 40% of natives who try taking the test fail it! So I guess Native danes aren't very danish.
I tried taking it myself once just to see what it was all about. I passed, barely.

 

[LuisDantas]

Typical. Or atypical, I guess. Something.