How to deal with mini-nazis?

[LuisDantas]

So how does one properly address the cultural issue of excrement upon laundromat floors, or the issue of people trying to impose a foreign culture through violence (i.e. no hijab = rape), without becoming a so-called "mini-nazi"? Downplay and dismiss it?

It is a major challenge, to be sure. But the proper way involves efforts at assimilation, certainly not isolationism.

 

[Father Heathen]

How do you address any law and order problem? Why bring in culture at all?

How do you solve a problem by refusing to address the cause? The attitudes and behavior stem from culture.

 

[Bismillah]

The attitudes and behavior stem from culture.

They stem from a lack of intelligence. Consistently projecting the horrors of particular situations on culture and tradition is a blatant smear campaign.

 

[Father Heathen]

For the record I don't have an issue with different cultures existing within the same society (as long as they don't impose upon or violate the rights of one another). I'm just saying it's understandable how someone might be wary of a culture that's perceived to be hostile toward their own. Respect and tolerance has to be a two-way street.

 

[Father Heathen]

They stem from a lack of intelligence. Consistently projecting the horrors of particular situations on culture and tradition is a blatant smear campaign.

You don't think a person's actions and beliefs might be influenced by their culture? The hijab and restroom etiquette aren't cultural ideas?

 

[Bismillah]

I'm just saying it's understandable how someone might be wary of a culture that's perceived to be hostile toward their own.

No, it's not.

The hijab and restroom etiquette aren't cultural ideas?

You think cultures espouse defecating in public a part of restroom etiquette?

 

[lunakilo]

So how does one properly address the cultural issue of excrement upon laundromat floors, or the issue of people trying to impose a foreign culture through violence (i.e. no hijab = rape), without becoming a so-called "mini-nazi"? Downplay and dismiss it?

You catch the people who are responsible for the excrement upon laundromat floors and make them clean it up.

You catch the rapists and put them in jail.

When I say you I mean the police in this case.

 

[lunakilo]

For the record I don't have an issue with different cultures existing within the same society (as long as they don't impose upon or violate the rights of one another). I'm just saying it's understandable how someone might be wary of a culture that's perceived to be hostile toward their own. Respect and tolerance has to be a two-way street.

True.

But is the culture hostile or is it only perceived to be hostile?
Are there only 2 boxes, them and us? I can think of many different boxes you can put 'us' into, that may also be true for 'them'.

 

[Kathryn]

I see where Father Heathen is coming from. It is naive and overly "politically correct" to refuse to acknowledge certain patterns and norms within certain groups of people.

That can really backfire on you.

I'm not talking about judging others. I am simply talking about powers of observation and using common sense and DISCRIMINATION. Yes, I said that word, and that's not always a bad word.

Let me give you an example from my own life. I am a banker. I meet with people every day to discuss their bank accounts and to help them manage them. Most people over age 60 do not and WILL not use online banking to pay their bills. Most people in that group are skeptical of online banking and insist on "so twentieth century" practices like writing checks, and calling to "talk to a real person" about their balances.

As a banker, I acknowledge this "norm" within this demographic group. Does this mean that I DON'T offer online banking to them, or offer to help them set it up? No. Does this mean I laugh at them or think they're stupid because the vast majority of them refuse to even consider online banking? No.

But I do tailor my customer service to fit their needs. We have marketing campaigns that target that group and focus on their needs. We also have marketing campaigns which focus on other demographic groups and their norms of behavior.

I am 49 years old. Sometimes our younger bankers will call me and set up an appt with one of their older customers and me because I can sometimes handle a difficult situation in a manner they feel more comfortable with.

Is that prejudice or is it common sense?

Marketing, on all levels, pinpoints very specific demographic groups and their interests and needs/ Is the concept of marketing discriminatory?

 

[Bismillah]

Yes I see where you are going with this; round up people of a certain ethnicity (in this case brown people from the M.E) and assume that they will be more likely to defecate in the laundromat.

Then when this suspicion is built blame their culture and heritage as both restrictive and primitive.

 

[lunakilo]

I see where Father Heathen is coming from. It is naive and overly "politically correct" to refuse to acknowledge certain patterns and norms within certain groups of people.
...

Marketing, on all levels, pinpoints very specific demographic groups and their interests and needs/ Is the concept of marketing discriminatory?

If you could define a demographic group narrowly enough to make sence, that is the vast majority if that group show certain patterns which are clearly problematic for society, then your argument would make sence.

But it does not make sense for the demographic group 'immigrants' or 'muslims' or 'people with a middle eastern background'

 

[Caladan]

Yes I see where you are going with this; round up people of a certain ethnicity (in this case brown people from the M.E) and assume that they will be more likely to defecate in the laundromat.

I'll openly admit. that it is customary for us, both the brown and the white Jews, to urinate in dark allies in strange hours of the night.
For our defence, we normally choose a corner which is littered with casual garbage and which we deem to be unapproachable by civilized men.
it is an army mentality you pick up along the way, and which you develop after spending months in the field. one which the Arabs seem to appreciate and share with us.
You need to pee? well go head and pee.

I know of a high profile Jewish man of European descent who was on a business visit with his wife to the US. who just could not contained himself in a late night hour when the pressure on his prostate arrived, and when him and his wife were back from an important event, he just told his wife, 'sorry I cannot possibly wait until we get to our hotel room', and found what he thought was a dark and unnoticeable corner and went on to do what any decent man does. after a short while, a police car approached the couple and the policemen came to have a little talk with him. as the residents who lived nearby apparently caught the dramatic event.

However, we are also proficient bankers.

Then when this suspicion is built blame their culture and heritage as both restrictive and primitive.

I have to comment on that, there is no more powerful strength over other people when they do the mistake of assuming that you come from a primitive culture.
especially since it is the god of your people which they allow to dominate every aspect of their lives. yes, the god of middle eastern 'brown' people.
It is an ironic fact of life. that some brown people out there are also the prime leaders in the current history of humanity, and also the most well educated.
it pretty much leaves North American in a stalemate they will stare at for a very long time. pretty much the same way they would stare at one Jesus of Nazareth from northern Israel, had he walked the streets of their cities.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes I see where you are going with this; round up people of a certain ethnicity (in this case brown people from the M.E) and assume that they will be more likely to defecate in the laundromat.

Then when this suspicion is built blame their culture and heritage as both restrictive and primitive.

Right... because merely pointing out the peculiar habits of particular cultures is only a step away from breaking out the zyklon B...

All of this hypersensitivity and overreaction is quite laughable.

 

[Bismillah]

because merely pointing out the peculiar habits of particular cultures

Your failure begins when you attribute the "peculiar habit" of defecating in laundromats or assulting one's women to a culture.

Perhaps they are socially inept, inferior perhaps. Their beliefs have no value to add in a Western society, surely they must see that their "peculiar habits" are at the root of it.

What a sickening display of Orientalism in the modern world.

 

[Father Heathen]

Your failure begins when you attribute the "peculiar habit" of defecating in laundromats or assulting one's women to a culture.

Perhaps they are socially inept, inferior perhaps. Their beliefs have no value to add in a Western society, surely they must see that their "peculiar habits" are at the root of it.

What a sickening display of Orientalism in the modern world.

Wacky straw man. I never said or implied any such things.

 

[Father Heathen]

The only point I was trying to make is that being wary of culture clash (which is a social reality) does not make one a racist. Also, not all members of a race share the same culture, and not all members of a culture are of the same race, and there's a difference between judging someone by their attitude and behavior and judging them based on skin color or some other physical characteristic.

I can and do respect other cultures, as long as they hold a respect for freedom and equality. I don't think all cultures are equal however; particularly the ones that are rife with homophobia, misogyny, superstition and injustice.

As for the spitting and urinating in laundromats, I'm sure they didn't know any better coming from a radically different way of life. I just used it as an example of how cultural misunderstandings can cause issues. It annoys me how people tried to twist it in a way that implied I desired to drag them off to the gas chambers, which is a silly exaggeration.

 

[lunakilo]

I'll openly admit. that it is customary for us, both the brown and the white Jews, to urinate in dark allies in strange hours of the night.
For our defence, we normally choose a corner which is littered with casual garbage and which we deem to be unapproachable by civilized men.
it is an army mentality you pick up along the way, and which you develop after spending months in the field. one which the Arabs seem to appreciate and share with us.
You need to pee? well go head and pee.

I know of a high profile Jewish man of European descent who was on a business visit with his wife to the US. who just could not contained himself in a late night hour when the pressure on his prostate arrived, and when him and his wife were back from an important event, he just told his wife, 'sorry I cannot possibly wait until we get to our hotel room', and found what he thought was a dark and unnoticeable corner and went on to do what any decent man does. after a short while, a police car approached the couple and the policemen came to have a little talk with him. as the residents who lived nearby apparently caught the dramatic event.

However, we are also proficient bankers.

Earlier today, about 16:00 when I came home after buying dinner in the nearby supermarked, a man was standing next to the door to the staircase to my apartment with his zipper open and his private parts pointed at the window of the shop at the ground floor. When I looked at him he said "sorry, but I just can't go. I am just waiting for something to happen".

I guess he wasn't a jew since mid afternoon in a bussy street isn't exactly a dark allie.
I don't know which culture or religion he belongs to. Maybe he was simply a drunk dane who really wanted to be a jew but hadn't quite understood the rules.

Drunk people are strange

 

[Alceste]

Again, there is a difference between race and culture. It's necessary to understand that before engaging in this conversation. It's silly to pretend that compatibility issues don't exist between various cultures. It has nothing to do with genetic makeup.

I don't believe it is part of anybody's culture to defecate in a laundromat.

 

[Alceste]

So how does one properly address the cultural issue of excrement upon laundromat floors, or the issue of people trying to impose a foreign culture through violence (i.e. no hijab = rape), without becoming a so-called "mini-nazi"? Downplay and dismiss it?

If the vast majority of Western rape victims were not assaulted by their own friends, boyfriends and husbands, you might have some kind of valid point. However, the facts being as they are, it seems that rape is an equal opportunity occurrence. If it isn't the hijab, it's the short skirt, the eye make-up, the nice hair, and the general appearance of "asking for it". And most of the time, it's the assumption that being in a relationship or taking a woman out for dinner entitles a man to sex-on-demand.

 

[Alceste]

Lately I have had some unplesant 'conversations' with a person who in my opinion has some very nasty opinions.

I met this person at a meeting with people who where building a spaceship (a very interesting story also, but I will just skip that one for now )
At the meeting we talked about rockets, not politics.
Later I found this person on facebook and added him as a friend which of cause means I can now see all the nasty stuff he posts on his wall.
Some of the stuff he posts is of the sort "immigrants are evil".

I commented on some of his posts. The verbal exchange was not very politicallly correct, and in the end he decided to block me.
He later showed me mercy and renewed our facebook 'friendship', and now I kind of consider myself a spy in the enemy camp.
I really want to see what he posts to get an idea of what goes on on his head, and in the heads of his friends.

This whole exchange with him and his friends really chocked my.
I have heard of people with these views, but I have never actually met anyone willing to express them.

I guess that I shouldn't be as surprised as I am that people like him exist, after all Europe is filled with right-wing, xenophobic and nantionalistic political parties.
The danish version of this trend is called the Danish People's Party.
They have the support of about 15% of the population, and even among the 'ordenary' political parties there is a lot of support of the ides of "let's throw out all the immigrants, build a wall around the country an pretend the outside world doesn't exist".
Many restrictions on immigration have been implemented in the last 10 years or so (the current government owes its power to the suppoert of the Danish People's Party).

I think one of the reasons these parties have so many supporters is that people don't like changes, especially not when they happen quickly.
30 years ago, there where very few immigrants in Denmark, especially outside the larger towns. But now there are many.
This change into a multiethnic, multicultural society has been to much to fast for many people.

So how do you keep these mini-nazis from gaining more and more power?
You can't just ignore that many people are uneasy about the situation, they may be silly old people, but they vote too.
It is not enough to be against the ways things are, you also need an alternative plan to make things better.

Any ideas?

Luna, I don't mingle with a lot of bigots myself now that I am back in Canada, but while I was living in the rural UK I sure did. It was a pretty standard topic of conversation how "immigrants" were "stealing British jobs". Ironic, actually, since I was an immigrant and it was obvious they didn't mean me (I'm white). I found that it was most useful simply to ask questions and press the bigot into going into detail until they can no longer sustain any commitment in their own irrational propositions.

For example, through persistent questioning, I was able to cause British bigots to face the fact they had an irrational race issue rather than a reasonable public policy issue. For example, the question "Are you saying I've stolen a British job?" would force them to admit it was not "my kind" of immigrant that shouldn't come to England and steal British jobs. Asking "What kind, then?" would force them to specify which ethnic group shouldn't come to England (Eastern Europeans, mostly). At this point they would begin to feel uncomfortable as their comments were sounding more and more like full-blown racism without its make-up on or its hair all done up, and open racism is taboo.

Just a word of caution, though, the "persistent questioning" approach can sometimes cause bigots to fly into a rage, according to an English friend of mine I recommended this approach to. I only ever drove them to a sullen, uncomfortable, introspective silence. That was preferable to countenancing bigotry at work, though. Also, whether it results in a rage or a sullen silence, it does put a stop to them making racist comments to you, or in your presence.

lol - come to think of it, I very often drove my rural English co-workers into a sullen, contemplative silence. Poor buggers.