rrobs
Well-Known Member
You're an exception as far as the study goes. But I think I'm right about most people, but maybe not.
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How to End Poverty
- Thread starter rrobs
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What is YWAM?
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
The largest mission agency in the world
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I hope you don't mind my thanking God for your labor. What I don't think you understand is how strongly I feel that very little of what Orthodox Christianity teaches is aligned with the Bible. I had been a Christian in just a Christian church, a few different ones actually, but I didn't last nearly as long as you did. A couple of years or so. I'm a logical person and the things they were telling me were beyond reason. It began with the trinity and went downhill from there.
I, probably like most Christians, already knew about the trinity before I ever cracked the book. Who doesn't in our day and age? Even non Christians know about it. Like I said somewhere, if the two main characters of any book are grossly misunderstood, it is not likely that the story as a whole will make any sense whatsoever. I don't blame anyone for eschewing church dogma. They should.
Then I met someone who managed to get through all the trinity brainwashing of mine and point out that there really is no such thing in the Bible. Once I got through that, the Bible became a totally different book. It was no longer the same muddled, nonsensical story of church doctrine. Anyway, I'm just saying that despite all your time in service, you may have never seen an alternative to church dogma. But the Bible is still there waiting for those who want to know.
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
Thanks for your warm hearted reply. Had zero interest in church politics about 12 months in sometime in 1982. Written several books on the topic. I think the reason that were not on the same page is I dont believe the Bible is the word of God. Its the words of fallen men, who interpreted God speaking to them through their own hurt and filters
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Pilots call it Sudden Deceleration Syndrome.
That is why Christians pray 'Thy Kingdom come' because only in a kingdom based on God's laws can poverty ever be eliminated.
But God gave man free will so until we choose of our own accord to follow God's ways things aren't going to change.
The biggest problem is lack of love and prejudice. We are all God's children but most religions do not see it that way claiming only they are saved and all others are damned. While prejudice exists between religions we can never be as one family as God intended.
Its about time religions shouldered the blame for all the disunity and hatred they've caused between people and united as one people and one family.
To insist we love each other but hate our Muslim or HIndu or Buddhist brother is condemned in the good Book as being nothing but a lie.
It's about time religions stopped this foolish "us and them" attitude and included all humanity, as God does, in their hearts.
God would never teach us other peoples/religions are false or evil because all the Holy Books teach goodness. Only ministers, seeking their own ambitions, turn their followers against the truth of other Faiths instead of promoting unity and harmony.
God is a God of love and only teaches us to love one another so poverty is a result of us not doing that.
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
Enjoyed reading your post.
Some questions...I hope you don't mind....
I have to agree with that. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the scriptures. The soul is very mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Actually "soul" in Hebrew is neʹphesh and in Greek psy·kheʹ. Both refer to living breathing, thinking creatures so you are correct, once breathing stops, the soul dies. But everlasting life was God's original purpose for man in the beginning....not in a spiritual body, but in a mortal body of flesh and blood, designed by the Creator to live forever.
There is no natural cause of death spoken about in Genesis. Death could only come about by disobedience.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, they never would have died.....how do we know that? Because there was a "tree of life" also in the garden that guaranteed that they would go on living as long as they were obedient.
Disobeying God's command meant two things....1) that death would inevitably come because that was the stated penalty....and 2) that God would ensure that by barring the way to the only means they had to keep living forever.
Genesis 3:22-24...ESV..."Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."
Even in their sinful state, if they had retained access to the tree of life, they could have continued to live. Imagine sinful people never dying? Think of the worst criminals in history and imagine them never going away.
So originally, everlasting life in the flesh was the prospect before all humanity. The fall of man changed that arrangement slightly, but it never wiped it out completely. (Isaiah 55:11) God's purpose can never be undone by anyone.
Yes, but what about the "spirit"? What is it when it refers to man?
King Solomon lamented that now sinful humans have the same outcome as the animals....
" I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (Ecclesiastes 2:18-20 ESV)
That wasn't the case from the beginning.
What did God tell Adam?....simply that he would die and return to the dust? What were his prospects before his disobedience though? Humans were not supposed to be like the animals, living a lifespan and then dying and returning to the dust.....only humans had the prospect of living forever in their mortal flesh. They lost that prospect when they disobeyed, but only temporarily. They would not remain in the condition that overtakes animals forever.
Everlasting life is still promised but for whom and where?
What does it mean to be "born again"? Nicodemus was interested in the answer to that question.
John 3:3-7..."Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’"
What is "the Kingdom of God" that Jesus mentions here? What is its purpose?
When Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to "come" and his will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven"...what did he mean?
What does it mean to be "born again"? and "born from water and spirit"?
What is Jesus telling Nicodemus?
What is the purpose of becoming "a whole new creature".....and again how does it relate back to Eden.
If, as Isaiah records God as saying......"so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.".....how does God's first purpose in connection with humans living forever in paradise conditions on earth "succeed", if all the Christians are "born again" and go to heaven?
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:2-4)
How is Revelation 21:2-4 fulfilled according to your understanding?
I have to agree with that. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the scriptures. The soul is very mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Actually "soul" in Hebrew is neʹphesh and in Greek psy·kheʹ. Both refer to living breathing, thinking creatures so you are correct, once breathing stops, the soul dies. But everlasting life was God's original purpose for man in the beginning....not in a spiritual body, but in a mortal body of flesh and blood, designed by the Creator to live forever.
There is no natural cause of death spoken about in Genesis. Death could only come about by disobedience.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, they never would have died.....how do we know that? Because there was a "tree of life" also in the garden that guaranteed that they would go on living as long as they were obedient.
Disobeying God's command meant two things....1) that death would inevitably come because that was the stated penalty....and 2) that God would ensure that by barring the way to the only means they had to keep living forever.
Genesis 3:22-24...ESV..."Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."
Even in their sinful state, if they had retained access to the tree of life, they could have continued to live. Imagine sinful people never dying? Think of the worst criminals in history and imagine them never going away.
So originally, everlasting life in the flesh was the prospect before all humanity. The fall of man changed that arrangement slightly, but it never wiped it out completely. (Isaiah 55:11) God's purpose can never be undone by anyone.
Yes, but what about the "spirit"? What is it when it refers to man?
King Solomon lamented that now sinful humans have the same outcome as the animals....
" I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (Ecclesiastes 2:18-20 ESV)
That wasn't the case from the beginning.
What did God tell Adam?....simply that he would die and return to the dust? What were his prospects before his disobedience though? Humans were not supposed to be like the animals, living a lifespan and then dying and returning to the dust.....only humans had the prospect of living forever in their mortal flesh. They lost that prospect when they disobeyed, but only temporarily. They would not remain in the condition that overtakes animals forever.
Everlasting life is still promised but for whom and where?
What does it mean to be "born again"? Nicodemus was interested in the answer to that question.
John 3:3-7..."Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’"
What is "the Kingdom of God" that Jesus mentions here? What is its purpose?
When Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to "come" and his will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven"...what did he mean?
What does it mean to be "born again"? and "born from water and spirit"?
What is Jesus telling Nicodemus?
What is the purpose of becoming "a whole new creature".....and again how does it relate back to Eden.
If, as Isaiah records God as saying......"so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.".....how does God's first purpose in connection with humans living forever in paradise conditions on earth "succeed", if all the Christians are "born again" and go to heaven?
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:2-4)
How is Revelation 21:2-4 fulfilled according to your understanding?
Thank you very much.
God loves all humanity unconditionally regardless of our faults and shortcomings. He sees all as His children and He wants us to learn unconditional love for all humanity the same way He loves us all.
As we mature and grow spiritually we will learn to see all humanity as our brothers and sisters and all these wars and prejudices will pass away.
I long for the day when we can all welcome each other with oneness and see the beauty in our differences and live in peace.
Isn’t it promised to us that one day the ‘wolf and the lamb’, the contending people’s will lie down in peace?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I really liked your post until the last few paragraphs. While it is absolutely true that we love all people, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, etc., it is not true that all of their texts are in alignment with the Bible. Clearly they are not. If we really loved them, which as you said we should, we would speak God's Word to them so they can make a choice. I know a lot of people hate the thought that Jesus is the only way to salvation, but the Bible is crystal clear on that.
John 14:6,
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That is pretty clear and there are many other verses that say the same thing. The Bible says the way to salvation is by confessing Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10). That is how to get born again of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23). Incorruptible seed is nice because, being incorruptible, it means that believer has a guaranteed spot in paradise. Yes, even those who continue to sin after their new birth. Sin is the nature of flesh and the new birth has nothing to do with the flesh. God created a completely new creation within the person who gets born again (2 Cor 5:7, Eph 4:24), That new creation does not sin (1 John 3:9) as opposed to the flesh in which Jesus said is not good thing (John 6:63, Rom 7:18). Lest anybody think that gives a license to sin, I will say no, it does not. The fact is that when someone knows who they are and what they have in Christ, they will naturally, without effort and resolutions, change their behavior and love all men. That love is manifested as we speak the truth in love.
The Bible is unique in that it does not work with flesh. All other religions, in some way, shape, or form, tells the follower they must reign in their flesh. That flies in the face of what Jesus and God say about the flesh.
Does any of this mean all who are not born again will end up in hell? No! That is what some say, but the Bible says they will be judged according to their works. I have no idea who will make it and who will not. That is up to God. That judgment will occur at the end of Revelations. Christians will have been gathered together to meet their Lord in the air before Revelations begins (1 Thes 4:17). Christians have already been judged and found righteous, as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:21-22).
None of this means Christians are somehow better than others. They are just saved from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10) and that by grace, not by their own goodness. There is no room to brag. It is clear that no other religious system offers salvation by grace. That is reserved by the Bible alone.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I was watching a 2hr tv show.....the extinction of Man
how it will happen
ten possibilities were displayed.....only one made sense
that guy took only five minutes to say....
the earth has enough chemistry to support 9billion people
at this late date......saving the poor from poverty and hunger
will hasten the demise of our living
you will need two things in the last days.....lead and water
water to drink
and lead to hang unto it long enough to drink it
So there’s hope for me yet!
True we can believe and try our best to do good works that win the good pleasure of the Lord and then it’s for God to judge us.
I commend you for bringing up what is very important and that is we will be judged according to our deeds not our words for anyone can call themselves a believer but it’s our works and deeds which are the real proof and distinguish the sheep from the goats.
I believe in the Bible as the Word of God and in Jesus and also that if we all followed His law to love one another this world would have already become a paradise.
God bless you brother.
Umm.. then choose to die.
We live because we enjoy living. If that does not fit you, then don't... simple.
Trackdayguy
Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
The difficulty with this concept which I used to believe but have since rejected is it creates segregation.
If you believe that then you must believe that your right and others are wrong. The get out clause for the evangelical, fundamentalist is: "I'm not judging you, I'm just telling you what the Bible says"
Problem with that is the Bible was written by men NOT GOD, so poor old God gets the blame.
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
You asked a lot of questions. I'll do the best I can. Don't mind a bit.
All that sounds in alignment with the scriptures. All part of God's plan, the logos from John 1:1 that was with God from the beginning. A brilliant plan.I have to agree with that. There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the scriptures. The soul is very mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Actually "soul" in Hebrew is neʹphesh and in Greek psy·kheʹ. Both refer to living breathing, thinking creatures so you are correct, once breathing stops, the soul dies. But everlasting life was God's original purpose for man in the beginning....not in a spiritual body, but in a mortal body of flesh and blood, designed by the Creator to live forever.
There is no natural cause of death spoken about in Genesis. Death could only come about by disobedience.
If Adam and his wife had never sinned, they never would have died.....how do we know that? Because there was a "tree of life" also in the garden that guaranteed that they would go on living as long as they were obedient.
Disobeying God's command meant two things....1) that death would inevitably come because that was the stated penalty....and 2) that God would ensure that by barring the way to the only means they had to keep living forever.
Genesis 3:22-24...ESV..."Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life."
Even in their sinful state, if they had retained access to the tree of life, they could have continued to live. Imagine sinful people never dying? Think of the worst criminals in history and imagine them never going away.
So originally, everlasting life in the flesh was the prospect before all humanity. The fall of man changed that arrangement slightly, but it never wiped it out completely. (Isaiah 55:11) God's purpose can never be undone by anyone.
The Hebrew word for spirit, ruach, literately means something like wind. Specifically it means the force or power behind that wind. You can't see wind but you can feel the pressure against your skin. That is spirit. The Bible uses it in a variety of different ways in the scriptures. The particular usage involved in our present conversation is a gift that God gives to those born again, better translated as born from above.
Adam and Eve were originally body, soul, and spirit. It was the spirit that would have kept them alive forever. When they disobeyed they lost that spirit and that is why God said they would not only die, but surely die. The new birth restores the spirit. Eternal life spirit, so we are back to the beginning with one huge difference. Adam and Eve's eternal life was conditional, ours is unconditional. There will only be a tree of life in the new heavens and new earth, no tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Sounds scriptural to me.
Romans 10:9-10 tells us how to get saved. We will end up in a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.
The kingdom of God is the overall reign of God. Now man is in charge, but after Jesus' appearance and defeat of the devil, God will once again be in charge. He will delegate that power to Jesus, who will reign as king for eternity.
The flesh is useless. Jesus said there is no good thing in it, that it profits a big fat zip. There is no way flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom. That is why we needed a new creation and God was kind enough to supply that to those who believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. It is the gift of holy spirit that we receive upon being born from above.
But that new spiritual creation does not eliminate the old nature of flesh and blood. Born again people still have the same sinful flesh and it continues to sin, hopefully not as much as before, but it doesn't really matter because no good thing means no good thing. The churches spend way more time teaching Christians to control their flesh even though it does no good. Instead they should teach what we are and what we have in Christ Jesus. Once a Christian begins to grasp that, there is no need to control the flesh. We will just naturally want to do the right thing. But even then, we still blow it and God address that in the Epistle of John where it says we have an advocate with the Father. That of course is Jesus Christ.
I know the church teaches we go to heaven, but the Bible says something quite a bit different.
1Thess 4:17,
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherever Jesus is we will be. Where will he be? Revelations makes it clear he will be enthroned in the New Jerusalem on earth. We will be with him on the earth. We will get new bodies just like his resurrected body (Phil 3:21). It'll be a pretty neat body. Just think of some of the things he did after his resurrection.
Honestly, I don't know how to answer that. I've never thought about it. I just know He'll create a new heavens and new earth like He did the first one. He spoke that one into existence if that gives a clue. Do you have an idea on that?
I think I answered all the questions, but maybe I missed something.
Take care...
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Of course! You and I can discuss all of this in the new heavens and new earth. All we can do is study the scriptures to the best of our ability. I don't claim to be error free in my understanding. I'm pretty sure that I for one will find out that a lot of what I believe will not actually be the case. I'll be glad to finally know as I'm known (1 Cor 13:12)!
God has already judged the born again Christian and found us righteous, as righteous as He is to be exact.
Rom 3:22,
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
That may be a hard for many to believe, but that's what the Bible says. It's pretty straight forward. Maybe I don't feel very righteous, but feelings come and go while the Word of God lives forever. Better to take God's word for it than to argue with Him. He made you righteous and so you are righteous.
The two judgments in the Book of Revelations will be for those who are not born again. Everybody wants to know what will happen to people who never heard of the Bible. Romans 2:15 says that every man has a conscience and basically knows right from wrong. Un-born again folks will be judged by that conscience. I suppose many will make it to paradise based solely on their attempts to do what is right to the best of their ability. People judge others based on outward appearance. God will judge them based on their heart (1 Sam 16:7).
Obviously, getting born again is the way to go. We were baptized with Christ, we died with him, we were raised form the dead with him, and we ascended to the father with him (Eph 2:6). God choose us before He even created the world (Eph 1:4). Why wait until the judgments of Revelations to see if we make it when we can settle it right here and now?
Yes it would, but we need to wait for Jesus' appearance to see it come to pass. Who knows, maybe you won't even get a chance to read all of this before he comes. But if not, it'll be soon enough considering we'll have eternity to enjoy it!
God bless...
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Interesting conclusion, but I'm not sure what gave you the idea that I don't enjoy life or that I should die now. It'll happen soon enough on it's own. No need for anyone to actually choose it.
Jas 4:14,
Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Just because I understand the nature of life and death, doesn't mean I think it purposeless. It has a place. I have to go through this one to get to the other one, the one that will be pain free, sorrow free, and most importantly free from death. All of that is in Revelations.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
You do realize that this applies to the ancient Israelites, don't you?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I can see that it would be meaningless for me to say I'm not judging you. But I don't have to judge you or anybody else. The truth is that since you are born again of incorruptible seed, you have already been judged and found righteous, as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). Believe me, I won't try to overrule His judgment of you! God chose you before He even created the heavens and earth (Eph 1:4). When God sees you he sees His perfect son, His new creation in you (2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15) , not your flesh. Nobodies flesh is worth a plug nickel (John 6:63, Rom 7:18)! Your flesh, my flesh, and everybody else's flesh is the same; rotten to the core.
The whole idea of judging one another is addressed in Romans.
Rom 2:1,
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Christian churches are big on judging homosexuals. But if Romans is right, then I am just as guilty of homosexuality as the next guy. The same for murder. "But, that can't be," someone might say. Well, just read the verse. It's pretty plain.
2Pet 1:21,
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Tim 3:16,
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
These verses say God is the author. I don't know any other way of reading them. Men of God wrote what the author, God, inspired them to write. They were written by men but the words came from God. It is true we no longer have any of those original documents. They have been copied and translated many times over. If one word was omitted, added, or changed we no longer have the perfect words of God. Nonetheless, there are ways to get pretty darn close to that original God breathed Word. There are perhaps many seeming contradictions in the Bible we have today. But those contradictions usually lie in either our understanding or an error in translation and with a bit of effort can be cleared up. Sometime not, in which case I simply say, "I don't know." There is more I don't know than I do know.
Also, once church doctrine is relinquished as a rule of faith and practice, the Bible takes on a whole new meaning. As I've said before, once the two main characters are said to be one and the same, the rest of the book is meaningless. Imagine someone reading the newspapers and that person is convinced that Trump, Putin, and Kim Jung are actually one person. What sense could possible be made of that newspaper article? A typical headline might read, "Trump blasts Putin for giving aid to Kim Jung." Well if all three were actually one, the same headline would be read as, "Trump blasts Trump for giving aid to Trump." What???? Well that's what the trinity does to the Bible. It renders it completely unintelligible.
If the Bible was written by men as you say, then it is beyond amazing that 40 some men over a course of thousands of years could write a book that fits together like a hand in a glove. The book has a perfect plot that ties together like any book ever penned by a human author. "War and Peace" is a kindergarten exercise compared to the Bible.
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At the moment we are experiencing population growth, but its likely to level out and hang around 11 billion according to one Ted presenter. Also 11 billion is possibly sustainable. Some things will need to change.