How to End Poverty

[Milton Platt]

Hmmm. I like your grandpa's ditty a little better, mess and all. We'll swap!

I see what you mean by wishing.

First of all, everything I've said and am about to say is meaningless to anybody who does not believe in God or the Bible. I understand and respect that. I'm just trying to relate what the book says, not trying to convince everybody it's actually true. Having said that, here goes;

The word translated "wish" is a form of the same Greek word usually translated as pray. It's not like making an idle wish to become rich or something. According to the scriptures prayer must be accompanied by believing. The petitioner must take an active part in the process, which I don't think describes what we normally think of as "wishing" for something.

If the King "wishes" for you to have prosperity, you will most certainly have the opportunity to be prosperous. I'm talking about a regular king, a man. Wouldn't a wish from God be even more sure than a mere human king?

While it may have been John that penned that verse, it was God who told him what to write (2 Tim 3:16, 2 Pet 1:21, et.al.). That's why the Bible is often called the Word of God. So it was really God saying He wishes us to be prosperous.

To make it actually happen, it is necessary for the person to believe God wants them to be prosperous. God is a god of free will. He will not force anything on anybody. He says, "Here it is. Come and get it" and we respond one way or the other.

Not everyone in the Bible is accorded free will. And it is debatable that true free will even exists.

I am an atheist and declare it on my avatar, so we have completely different view points, but thanks for entertaining my inputs in a civil manner........

 

[dfnj]

Deut 15:4-5,

4 Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance to possess it:
5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.​

Incredibly simplistic, especially to economists I suppose, but the words are nonetheless as straight forward as words ever get.

I of course understand that such a revival in believing God will never occur. Jesus knew that, and that is why he said we will always have the poor (John 12:8). Still, it's interesting to see how poverty could be eliminated.

Poverty has nothing to do with God. The problems with this country are not rocket science. The lobbyists force the politicians to pass laws creating cartels and monopolies in exchange for campaign financing. Then the corporations use analytics to set pricing and depress wages. It really doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. What DOES matter is the purchasing power of your take home pay.

Consider the following video for just how bad it really is in this country:

Every year the rich get richer and the middle class is pushed deeper and deeper into a poverty wage. What difference does it make if you get a 2% raise when your expenses go up by more than 2%!!! What a scam!

You know how you know there are no free-markets in this country? CEO pay keeps going up some there is nothing in the free-market to wring out the inefficiencies of CEO pay.

 

[Deeje]

I'm afraid I don't see that, my friend.

It is clear that there is someone who would not have killed Jesus had they known the mystery.

1Cor 2:8,

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
​

That someone is identified as the princes of this world. Why, whoever these folks are, would they have not killed Jesus?

The "princes" were not princes according to the Greek (that is a bad translation)...they were leaders and commanders. Pilate was the Governor representing the Roman government. The soldiers who put Jesus to death had no idea who he really was.

Do you think they would have put the son of God to death if they had known who he was, the appointed King of God's Kingdom....? I'm sure they would not have done what they did. To them, Jesus was just another Jewish sect leader after disciples to follow him. If the Jews had not threatened Pilate's political position, implying that he was committing sedition by allowing a a self proclaimed King to go free, Pilate may not have handed him over for execution.

I can see why you might reason the way you did, but I can also see that Paul was not the only one who received revelations by Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-27..."of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. " (ESV)

Perhaps the translation is causing confusion? Do you see that God made known to his "saints" (holy ones" plural) the "mystery" or "secret". Not just to Paul.

"Col 1:25-27,

25 Whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"​

That expression "Christ in you"....what do you think it means?

 

[Deeje]

First of all, we must know what this "mystery" is. It is not a matter of opinion or guesswork. The Bible is clear on what this mystery is. We can know it was hidden in God until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my (Paul's) gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
​

Eph 3:3,

How that by revelation he made known unto me (Paul) the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
​

1Cor 2:7,

But we (Paul & company) speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
​

Until it was revealed to Paul by God nobody knew this mystery. God's purpose in this mystery is clearly stated in Ephesians.

Eph 3:4-6,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my (Paul's) knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Verse 6 states the end purpose of the mystery in clear terms. In the OT the Gentiles were without God and had no hope (Eph 2:12). The Jews were God's chosen people and the Gentiles were not His chosen people. I know that they could convert to Judism, but short of that they were flat out of luck when it came to salvation. It was quite an unexpected turn of events when God revealed to Paul that the Gentiles could now share fully with Israel. It probably fried the minds of many an Israelite when first revealed!

I know that there was a certain arrogance among the Jews about the nature of their choosing as God's nation, but I believe Jesus and John the Baptist put paid to that. Matthew 23 has Jesus passing judgment on the Jewish leaders in no uncertain terms, ending in their abandonment.....and John the Baptist basically saying that God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones. (Matthew 3:9-10) Being Jewish by birth no longer accounted for anything.
But if you go back to Genesis and the covenant that God made with Abraham you will see that it was never made for the benefit of just the Jews.

Genesis 22:17-18...To Abraham, God said...." I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

So from the beginning, God was going to bless and multiply Abraham's offspring, but through them God would produce a seed whose actions would result in blessings for all nations. It should not have been a surprise at all that Gentiles would inherit that blessing.

We saw in 1 Corinthians 2:7 that this mystery was ordained by God to our glory. That was nice of Him! What is the glory of the mystery?

What indeed? The glory is in God's purpose and in the outcome.

 

[Deeje]

Now I can understand why the devil would not have wanted a whole bunch of folks running around with Christ in them. That is pretty easy to see. Had he not killed Jesus, who being free from sin, would have lived forever (death comes by sin, Rom 5:12). The power of God to us is not in the crucifixion, but in the resurrection (it would be more appropriate for churches to have a picture of an empty tomb rather than crucifixes all over the place). It was the resurrection that allowed the plan of God to come into fruition. The devil had to kill Jesus in order for God to raise him from the dead. Once Jesus rose from the dead the mystery kicked in and it is Christ in me, Christ in you, and Christ in every born again believer. That was certainly not what the devil intended when he had Jesus killed!

I agree that the devil would not purposely carry out God's will, but being omniscient, God can know the end from the beginning. He foresaw the outcome and predicted it.
God is ..."Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’" (Isaiah 46:10)

So the very first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 alluded to the outworking of God's purpose in sending the promised seed who would suffer a temporary "heel" wound, but would deliver a fatal "head" wound to God's adversary.

I have to disagree about the importance of Christ's resurrection however. It is Christ's blood that freed mankind from sin. It was Christ's death that he asked to be commemorated. There is no mention of celebrating his resurrection, marvelous and all as it was. The resurrection facilitated God's victory over death, and opened the way for others to follow Jesus into heaven. Remember he went there to prepare a place for his disciples...? I believe that the secret was in the spiritual nature of the Kingdom and its rulers. Imagine finding out that the kingdom was in heaven and that those going there would be given a new birth in a new body!

The human leaders had nothing to lose by killing Jesus, but the devil had everything to lose. Why would Pontius Pilate have cared? He wanted nothing to do with the scriptures. Why would the Jewish leaders have cared? Wouldn't they have been more than happy to share their favor with God with the Gentiles had they known that was going to happen after Jesus died and rose as per the mystery? If not, why not?

I guess the answer lies in the big picture.

If you understand what God established in the beginning, how humans and angels lost their way by abusing free will, and what God did to get us all back to square one....you can see one continuous story unfolding from Genesis to Revelation. What God intended at the beginning will be achieved at the end.(Isaiah 55:11)

What do you see as the big picture?

 

[rrobs]

Poverty has nothing to do with God. The problems with this country are not rocket science. The lobbyists force the politicians to pass laws creating cartels and monopolies in exchange for campaign financing. Then the corporations use analytics to set pricing and depress wages. It really doesn't matter what you pay in taxes. What DOES matter is the purchasing power of your take home pay.

Consider the following video for just how bad it really is in this country:

Every year the rich get richer and the middle class is pushed deeper and deeper into a poverty wage. What difference does it make if you get a 2% raise when your expenses go up by more than 2%!!! What a scam!

You know how you know there are no free-markets in this country? CEO pay keeps going up some there is nothing in the free-market to wring out the inefficiencies of CEO pay.

I couldn't agree more with what you say about the state of our economic situation. The Bible also weighs in on that very good point you made.

1Tim 6:10,

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.​

Nothing wrong with money per say. It makes it easy to trade goods which we all need. However when people love money more than they love God there can be no good end. How many people get killed in wars every day because defense contractors need ever more money?

That is precisely why I believe in God to meet my needs and so far so good.

 

[rrobs]

Do you think they would have put the son of God to death if they had known who he was, the appointed King of God's Kingdom....?

He kept telling them who he was, so they did know and they killed him anyway.

I can see why you might reason the way you did, but I can also see that Paul was not the only one who received revelations by Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-27..."of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. " (ESV)

Yes, we do know the mystery. But how did I get it? The only reason I know it is because God told it to Paul first. I certainly didn't get the revelation directly from God. I understand the mystery only because God gave it to Paul and he was nice enough to write it down so I could also know it.

Eph 3:3-4,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me (Paul) the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

A Christian can know the mystery by reading what God first told Paul. Paul had a gospel (Rom 2:16), some good news that was never revealed until Paul got it.

That expression "Christ in you"....what do you think it means?

Christ in me is the source of the life that keeps my body going.

Gal 2:20,

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Christ in me is the gift of holy spirit God gave me when I was born again.

John 3:6,

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

Christ in me is that with which I was baptized.

Acts 11:16,

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.​

Christ in me is that which quickens my mortal body.

Rom 8:11,

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
​

Christ in me is that spirit through which God includes me to be a part of his dwelling place.

Eph 2:22,

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
​

Christ in me is that which, hopefully (it depends on my believing it), guides me through life.

Gal 5:18,

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
​

There is much more of course, but the bottom line is that wherever I am, so is Christ. If I renew my mind to that, if I think his thoughts (the Bible) instead of my own thoughts, then I have tremendous power available. Didn't Jesus say we would do the works he did, and even more than he did?

​

 

[rrobs]

What do you see as the big picture?

A new heaven and new earth wherein dwells righteousness. No pain, no sorrow, and most of all no death!

We will be back to Eden but with one major exception. Revelations mentions a tree of life, but no tree of that pesky knowledge of good and evil. Where Adam and Eve had a condition placed on them by God, we will have no such condition. Our eternity is unconditional. I think that is a huge improvement!

 

[rrobs]

Genesis 22:17-18...To Abraham, God said...." I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”

So from the beginning, God was going to bless and multiply Abraham's offspring, but through them God would produce a seed whose actions would result in blessings for all nations. It should not have been a surprise at all that Gentiles would inherit that blessing.

Given that you just quoted scripture, all you say is true. That's a given!

However, those verses, and others like it, must be understood in the light of other verses such as,

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
​

It's clear that the OT folks had some idea of the Gentiles being blessed somehow, but that they should suddenly become God's "chosen" along with Israel was apparently not known.

What would have been the motivation for the Jewish leaders to keep Jesus alive had they known that the Gentiles would share the wealth with them? Were they just plain stingy? Did they not want to share the pot of gold? I can't really think of any reason why they would have kept him alive.

 

[rrobs]

Not everyone in the Bible is accorded free will. And it is debatable that true free will even exists.

I am an atheist and declare it on my avatar, so we have completely different view points, but thanks for entertaining my inputs in a civil manner........

I also appreciate your civility in our conversation. My wife and I have a cat and a dog and they get along just fine. Seems like people out to be capable of the same thing regardless of different views on life.

 

[rrobs]

I have to disagree about the importance of Christ's resurrection however. It is Christ's blood that freed mankind from sin. It was Christ's death that he asked to be commemorated. There is no mention of celebrating his resurrection, marvelous and all as it was. The resurrection facilitated God's victory over death, and opened the way for others to follow Jesus into heaven. Remember he went there to prepare a place for his disciples...? I believe that the secret was in the spiritual nature of the Kingdom and its rulers. Imagine finding out that the kingdom was in heaven and that those going there would be given a new birth in a new body!

Acts 1:22,

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.​

When the Apostles hired a replacement for Judas, the main criterion was that the new guy should have witnessed the resurrection. Lot's of people die, but only one rose and stayed risen. The resurrection is what they considered the proof of Jesus being the Messiah.

Acts 2:30-32,

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
​

Christ sits on the throne because of the resurrection.

Acts 4:33,

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
​

The proof that Jesus was the Christ was the resurrection.

Rom 1:4,

And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
​

The power that Jesus (and us) have came by the resurrection.

1Pet 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Our hope for a future life is in the resurrection.

1Pet 3:21,

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
​

We are saved, made whole, by the resurrection.

None of this minimizes anything about Jesus' death, but nonetheless the power we now have lies in the resurrection. His death is a whole other story, and a good one at that!

 

[rrobs]

I know, I misquoted it on purpose. But the verse deals with the flesh of Jesus crying against his crucifixion even though his spirit knew that it was for the greater good. Just like your op about poverty and God. As if God's plan is always best for people.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1. He also stated that, "It is finished" (John 19:30), which is from Psalm 22:31, the last verse in the Psalm ("he hat done it"). I think it is fair to say the entire Psalm was on is mind. The first verse asks why God forsook him. By reading the rest of the Psalm it is clear that he was fully aware that God had not actually abandoned him. In fact, the Psalm indicates both a trust in God by a man and the faithfulness of God to keep His promises.

It was just like Jesus to quote scripture up to the end. He was a man (not a god-man) and could totally relate to David's concern when it looked as though he was about to get overrun by the enemy. While both acknowledged the apparent hopelessness of their situation, it is clear that both also had complete faith that their God would come through with deliverance in the end.

 

[Deeje]

A new heaven and new earth wherein dwells righteousness. No pain, no sorrow, and most of all no death!

We will be back to Eden but with one major exception. Revelations mentions a tree of life, but no tree of that pesky knowledge of good and evil. Where Adam and Eve had a condition placed on them by God, we will have no such condition. Our eternity is unconditional. I think that is a huge improvement!

Your 'big picture' is very similar to ours....but quite dissimilar to many of the churches. Are you a member of any particular denomination? Most "Christians" see their place as of necessity, in heaven, but I was actually relieved to find out that the earth was intended to be our permanent home. I have no desire to leave here....now I know why.

We believe that only those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) are anointed with God's spirit as a token for that 'rebirth'....being given a new spiritual body to dwell in the spirit realm in God's presence with Jesus.

We see Revelation speaking about 144,000 who are seen with the Lamb in heaven before God's throne, (Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:2-4) having been chosen from among mankind by God for special service. (Revelation 14:1, 3-4) We also see two groups in that scenario, one numbered and one infinite. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

What about you? How do you interpret those scriptures? And since John says that he is in "the Lord's Day"......how do you understand this?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What's the point of doing anything at all in this life?

Because you can make things better for the people who outlive you. The world doesn't revolve around you and your wants.

For the vast majority of people, their memory will be forgotten by the rest of humanity in short order. They may as well have never lived at all.

Can you name every pious human who ever lived? Heck, do you know the names of just every person on the planet for all of human history? No? Then it doesn't matter what you believe because you're still going to be forgotten centuries and millennia later. People are dying today you couldn't name.

That alone will change one's behavior in a way no mere resolutions could ever do.

His own apostles never show much growth at all. They were there with him and he derided them for not understanding him.

If he can't fix his inner circle, why bother with the rest of us?

They always think they have ideas that are better than God's.

I know that flooding an entire planet doesn't fix things.

I know that if you want to get healed, even in the ancient world where science was iffy, going to a hospital was still better than waiting for someone to preach to you instead.

I know that it's better to make sure women have full civil rights instead of just forcing them to beg when widowed.

I know that killing bratty kids, while I sympathize, is still wrong.

I know that punishing a rape victim is always wrong.

I know that God gave Solomon epic levels of knowledge and he still had to outsource the building of the Temple.

I know that most of the plots in the bible could've been resolved as long as someone had a decent IQ. You have ancient civilizations that had massive architecture, medicine, robots (kinda/sorta), etc, while Israel was listening to someone who lay in bed for a long time eating bread baked with his own poop.

A new heaven and new earth wherein dwells righteousness. No pain, no sorrow, and most of all no death!

We had paradise and screwed it up. Heaven is supposedly perfect and yet a third of the angels could rebel. Clearly the brochure is shinier than the reality.

 

[rrobs]

I know that flooding an entire planet doesn't fix things.

I know that if you want to get healed, even in the ancient world where science was iffy, going to a hospital was still better than waiting for someone to preach to you instead.

I know that it's better to make sure women have full civil rights instead of just forcing them to beg when widowed.

I know that killing bratty kids, while I sympathize, is still wrong.

I know that punishing a rape victim is always wrong.

I know that God gave Solomon epic levels of knowledge and he still had to outsource the building of the Temple.

I know that most of the plots in the bible could've been resolved as long as someone had a decent IQ. You have ancient civilizations that had massive architecture, medicine, robots (kinda/sorta), etc, while Israel was listening to someone who lay in bed for a long time eating bread baked with his own poop.

You seem to have handle on the meaning of life. There's not much more I can say on the subject, so I'll just wish you the best. Take care...

 

[rrobs]

Your 'big picture' is very similar to ours....but quite dissimilar to many of the churches. Are you a member of any particular denomination? Most "Christians" see their place as of necessity, in heaven, but I was actually relieved to find out that the earth was intended to be our permanent home. I have no desire to leave here....now I know why.

We believe that only those with "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) are anointed with God's spirit as a token for that 'rebirth'....being given a new spiritual body to dwell in the spirit realm in God's presence with Jesus.

We see Revelation speaking about 144,000 who are seen with the Lamb in heaven before God's throne, (Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 21:2-4) having been chosen from among mankind by God for special service. (Revelation 14:1, 3-4) We also see two groups in that scenario, one numbered and one infinite. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

What about you? How do you interpret those scriptures? And since John says that he is in "the Lord's Day"......how do you understand this?

I'm not a member of any denomination. I'm an equal opportunity fellowshipper. I'll talk to anyone who cares to discuss the scriptures. I'm not against denominations, just not part of one.

The Lord's Day is when Jesus will come and take back control of the earth from the devil. It is called "the day of the lord" in several places where it is clear it is talking about Jesus coming, not to suffer as in his first appearance, but to establish the everlasting kingdom promised to Israel. He'll be kicking butt on the Lord's Day! Nobody's going to give him any lip on that day! He will be seen as King of Kings and Lord of Lords! There'll be no crown of thorns or cross for Jesus the next time around!

Right now we are in man's day.

1 Cor 4:3,

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
​

The word "judgment" in the phrase "man's judgment" is the Greek word hemera which means "day." Hemera is used over 280 times in the Bible. KJV translates it as day almost always. A few times it is translated as age, time, years, and a few other time related nouns. The only verse that KJV translated hemera as judgment is here in 1 Cor 4:3. Maybe the scribe was exhausted when he got to 1 Corinthians. I can't see any legitimate reason to translate it as judgment here.

I see Revelations as dealing almost exclusively with Israel. Therefore, with a minor exception I'll detail below, it has nothing to do with the Church of the Body, i.e. Christians.

God made many promises to Israel that would have been fulfilled had they not rejected Jesus. But seeing as how they did just that, God put them "on hold" for a while. That is when the mystery of Jew and Gentile being of the same body was revealed. It was also the time when we were removed from under the law. In short, it is the administration of grace. This was a big part of the Mystery until God kept secret until he revealed it to Paul who then revealed it to anybody who cares to know.

Rom 3:20-22,

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​

Christians are saved by believing, not by following the law which nobody could do anyway. This administration, or age, of grace will end when Christ gathers us together to meet him in the air.

1Thess 4:16-17,

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

From that point on we will be with the Lord. God will then return to dealing with Israel which dealing is outlined in Revelations. Revelations tells how God will finally fulfill all the promises He made to Israel. Chapter 19 of revelations tells of Jesus coming from heaven on a white horse. Remember, prior to all this Christians had been gathered together with Jesus and told we would be with him from that time on. So if he comes on a white horse, I would have to say we will be coming with him. Revelation 19:14 mentions armies that come with him. Putting two and two together, it is clear that Christians will form at least part of that army.

Peter mentions this period of grace in his epistle.

1Pet 1:10-11,

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

The OT prophets knew something was going to happen between Jesus' first appearance in suffering and his second appearance in glory and judgment. They just couldn't put their finger on it though. Why? Because it was hidden in God. In the phrase,"sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow" the comma represents this age of grace when God made known the mystery. When this age is over and Christ has gathered Christians together in the air, the Lord's Day will commence.

There is a remarkable record in Luke that also speaks of this time.

Luke 4:17-21,

17 And there was delivered unto him (Jesus) the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
​

Verse 20 says he closed book after reading, "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Why did he stop there? He stopped there because he knew how to rightly divide the word of truth. He was quoting Isaiah.

Isa 61:2,

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
​

Jesus was correct in saying that his first appearance was "the acceptable year of the Lord" but he would have been dead wrong had he continued reading. He knew the day of vengeance was yet to come and was therefore not fulfilled as he read the scroll in the temple that day. Again, notice that comma in the phrase, "acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance." That comma represents our present dispensation of grace.

Nobody, not even Jesus knows how long this age will last (Matt 24:36, Mark 13:32), but when it is over, Jesus will return and set things straight once again. The new heavens and new earth will be established.

As a side note it is interesting that in Luke 4:17 we are told that Jesus "found the place where it is written" in the scroll. Those scrolls had no chapters, no verses, no punctuation of any sort, not even spaces between words. How difficult it would be to find anything in such a document. I think Jesus studied well and knew the scriptures like none other before him or after him. What a guy!

As another side note, The word heavens needs to be understood by the modern West. In the orient heaven was considered as anything above the ground (earth), not as some far away who knows what or where. Genesis (and other places) speak of birds flying in the heavens. I've yet to learn of a bird that went through the stratosphere! Birds will still be in heaven, people will still be on the earth in the new creation. The word "heaven" would be a good word study.

​

 

[RabbiO]

@rrobs

Could you show me the comma you mention as having meaning in 1 Peter in the original Greek?

 

[rrobs]

@rrobs

Could you show me the comma you mention as having meaning in 1 Peter in the original Greek?

Good catch. Technically, and in reality, there is no comma anywhere to be found in any Greek text. I actually said something to that effect in the same post.

Still, punctuation, spaces, capital/small letters, and a few other things aside, the sense is clear that the prophets of old couldn't quite put their finger on what was to happen between the sufferings and the glory. That is the period in which we currently live. Justification by believing as opposed to justification by shows of the flesh, which shows accomplished nothing but problems.

If you don't believe in the things God told Paul, I completely understand. One thing is for certain, I don't want to judge anybody for their beliefs. I know what I believe, but I'm not foolish enough to think everybody, indeed anybody, will or should believe like me because of the things I say. I merely hold forth to the best of my ability what I believe to be God's message to our day and age. I am not concerned that other's believe it or not. God gives the increase, not me.

Christians are only where they are today because of the things Israel did. Without Israel and all the prophets, nobody would know anything at all about the true God. Israel made eternal life possible for all to claim by believing. No Israel, no Christians. At least that's what it says in the book of Romans, for whatever that is worth. Take care...

 

[Deeje]

Thank you once again for your very comprehensive reply rrobs.

I'm not a member of any denomination. I'm an equal opportunity fellowshipper. I'll talk to anyone who cares to discuss the scriptures. I'm not against denominations, just not part of one.

I see. But I assume that you were raised in a denomination? I was raised Anglican. Nothing rang true for me.
I also came to realize that the KJV was not the best translation to use for interpreting the Bible's message. Is there a reason why you prefer it? You get so much more out of using a variety of translations and you can see how men's ideas creep in when certain words are interpreted to support the church's own doctrines.

The Lord's Day is when Jesus will come and take back control of the earth from the devil. It is called "the day of the lord" in several places where it is clear it is talking about Jesus coming, not to suffer as in his first appearance, but to establish the everlasting kingdom promised to Israel. He'll be kicking butt on the Lord's Day! Nobody's going to give him any lip on that day! He will be seen as King of Kings and Lord of Lords! There'll be no crown of thorns or cross for Jesus the next time around!

Right now we are in man's day.

Right now, I believe that we are living in a world ruled by the devil who is influencing human governments and spiritually weak willed people who are easy to deceive because they are unaware that an enemy is leading them down a road to death. He knows he is going there, but like the Pied Piper, he will play a tune that mesmerizes the populace by telling them what they want to hear.....the "many" are on that road. (Matthew 7:13-14) Paul warned....
"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry." (2 Timothy 4:3-5)


We believe that the "Lord's Day" is connected to Christ's "presence" rather than his "coming".

If you examine Matthew 24, where Jesus gave the "sign of his parousia" (often mistranslated as "coming") a whole bunch of events had to happen before he manifested himself as God's appointed judge. The "sign" began with an unprecedented kind of warfare, (not reports of wars in other places) one that had never been experienced before in human history......"The First World War" was, we believe, the beginning of the time of the end. The foretold features of the "sign" have been unfolding since the "last days" of this present system began. We have not had peace in the world since that time.

Food shortages continue to plague mankind when there is enough food for all, but greedy capitalism won't share and self-serving regimes cream off any surplus for themselves.

Great earthquakes also have taken many lives in this period. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
https://www.citylab.com/environment/2015/10/mapping-100-years-of-earthquakes-in-3d/409894/

Being "hated" by all the nations is another good indicator of who it is that will be finally found "doing the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-23)
John 17:14..."I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.....They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world"

John 15:19...."If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you." Who is hated more than those who will not support their government's political agenda, right or wrong? Nationalism has become the 'religion' that has priority among men. Love for one's nation becomes more important than love for God or neighbor.

Can you tell me what church is not aligned to politics?

There was to be false prophets claiming to speak for God and in this time period Christendom has splintered off into literally thousands of sects....all claiming Jesus as their "Lord and savior". When Jesus comes as judge, who will he claim as his own? Relatively "few", according to him.

An 'increase in lawlessness' is also seen to escalate at this time....it results in love disappearing from the world, which we see so very clearly. There is little community spirit left in a world full of self-absorbed people.

Jesus will have a basis upon which to judge because part of the sign was also a global preaching of the Kingdom message. This is the "witness to all the nations" before Christ brings this wicked world to its end.

To us, that means that the end is now closer than it has ever been.....there is little of the sign left to be fulfilled.
We are on the brink of the new world.

 

[Deeje]

1 Cor 4:3,
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
The word "judgment" in the phrase "man's judgment" is the Greek word hemera which means "day." Hemera is used over 280 times in the Bible. KJV translates it as day almost always. A few times it is translated as age, time, years, and a few other time related nouns. The only verse that KJV translated hemera as judgment is here in 1 Cor 4:3. Maybe the scribe was exhausted when he got to 1 Corinthians. I can't see any legitimate reason to translate it as judgment here.

According to the Greek Interlinear, 1 Corinthians 4:3 reads...."3 But de for me egō it is eimi a matter of the least consequence elachistos that hina I should be judged anakrinō by hypo you hymeis or ē by hypo any human anthrōpinos court hēmera. In fact alla, I do anakrinō not even oude judge anakrinō myself emautou."

The Mounce Interlinear's rendering along with most other translations is not out of place to translate it as "human court" or "mans judgment" or "human tribunal" in context though is it? Paul is speaking about judgment here. "Day" just doesn't fit.

I see Revelations as dealing almost exclusively with Israel. Therefore, with a minor exception I'll detail below, it has nothing to do with the Church of the Body, i.e. Christians.

I see that very differently as I already mentioned with regard to "Israel". It isn't fleshly Israel who inherited the promises...it was 'spiritual' Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. Paul called them "The Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)

Matthew 23 has Jesus passing judgment on the Jewish leaders in no uncertain terms, ending in their 'abandonment'.....and John the Baptist basically said that 'God could raise up children for Abraham from the stones'. (Matthew 3:9-10) Being Jewish by birth no longer accounted for anything.

The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28, 29)

God made many promises to Israel that would have been fulfilled had they not rejected Jesus. But seeing as how they did just that, God put them "on hold" for a while.

I see no "hold"...I see abandonment because they were serial covenant breakers. That released God from any obligation to them. The murder of his son in such despicable circumstances warranted the sentence Jesus passed on them. (Matthew 23:37-39) They did to Jesus what their forefathers had done to all the prophets down through their history. All of the first Christians and all of the Bible writers were Abraham's descendants. Abraham would be proud of them....not so proud of those who were incorrigible and unteachable....too set in their ways and traditions.

That is when the mystery of Jew and Gentile being of the same body was revealed. It was also the time when we were removed from under the law. In short, it is the administration of grace. This was a big part of the Mystery until God kept secret until he revealed it to Paul who then revealed it to anybody who cares to know.

Yes, I agree. But Jew and Gentile are brothers in God's arrangement as disciples of his son.....where do you see fleshly Jews aligned with anything in connection with Jesus? They still see him as an imposter almost 2,000 years later. I don't see God having any further dealings with the nation of Israel.

Christians are saved by believing, not by following the law which nobody could do anyway. This administration, or age, of grace will end when Christ gathers us together to meet him in the air.

I see this as when Jesus gathers 'the chosen ones" to meet him "in the air". I am not of that group. I am not anointed for heavenly life because I have an inordinate desire to stay right here on earth. I know members of the anointed and they have an inordinate desire is to go to heaven. They do not inherit that position by simply becoming Christians....they are specially chosen and given a "heavenly calling" by God's spirit. It isn't a natural desire to leave life on earth and all your loved ones behind to go somewhere very unfamiliar and be given a body suited to dwell in that realm, but God implants that desire and there are no reservations with them.