How to interprete Scriptures (Bible or Quran)

[CG Didymus]

The second time that Scriptures says Jesus was raised, is after His Crusifixtion. Which I have already explained, it was the Desciple of Jesus, who symbolically were the Body of Christ, raised to preach the Word of God.

I'm hoping the resurrection is not only symbolic but even something stolen from pagan religions. The huge question is: What if I'm wrong? 1Cor 15:12-20 is not talking about a "revived" bunch of believers. It is talking about Jesus coming back to life. The empty tomb has nothing to do with the "body" of believers coming "spiritually" alive. It is talking about Jesus was dead, now he's alive. Thomas poked him to see if he was real, and he was. For the Baha'is to be right 2000 years of Christian resurrection doctrine has to be wrong and a lot of Bible verses that sound literal have to be made symbolic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1Cor 15:12-20 is not talking about a "revived" bunch of believers. It is talking about Jesus coming back to life.

Oh yeah. Here was one of them that was revived:

"For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate." Luke 15:24

The empty tomb has nothing to do with the "body" of believers coming "spiritually" alive.

Yes, I agree.

It is talking about Jesus was dead, now he's alive.

The empty tomb story, in my view teaches what, one of the mystics, the Rumi said. He said such words:

When I died, do not look for me in the Tomb of earth, for I am not there. Look for me in the heart of men.

Looking at it, the story of Christ, his empty tomb, and then raising his cause, is what the story teaches. Yes, the reality of Jesus was not in the tomb, because he had raised in the heart of men.

I view the Bible as a bunch of mystical stories, with the intention to teach certain Spiritual Truths.

For the Baha'is to be right 2000 years of Christian resurrection doctrine has to be wrong and a lot of Bible verses that sound literal have to be made symbolic.

The Bible already said it is sealed with Seven seales, and no one understands the mysteries in Bible, till the second coming, when He reveals it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh yeah. Here was one of them that was revived:

"For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate." Luke 15:24


The empty tomb story, in my view teaches what, one of the mystics, the Rumi said. He said such words:

When I died, do not look for me in the Tomb of earth, for I am not there. Look for me in the heart of men.

Looking at it, the story of Christ, his empty tomb, and then raising his cause, is what the story teaches. Yes, the reality of Jesus was not in the tomb, because he had raised in the heart of men.

I view the Bible as a bunch of mystical stories, with the intention to teach certain Spiritual Truths.



The Bible already said it is sealed with Seven seales, and no one understands the mysteries in Bible, till the second coming, when He reveals it.

I hope you're right. 2000 years of Christianity hasn't done much.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I hope you're right. 2000 years of Christianity hasn't done much.

I think one of the main teachings of Bible is this: God inspires with symbolic language, not literal language.
Remember the story of Joseph, and the dream that the man had:

"The lean, ugly cows ate up the seven fat cows that came up first." Gen. 41:20

Now, the idea is that, the interpretation of "seven lean cows ate seven fat cows" is seven years of prosperity followed by seven years of difficulty.
and when the man saw this dream, he did not know how to interprete. So, he went to Prophet.

The idea that the Authors of Bible gave is that, there is a supernatural power, or a spiritual realm, that communicates with people on earth to tell them certain truths. But this inspiration is done through signs and symbolic language.

Now, The Authors of Bible said, All Scriptures are inspired by God.
This inspiration is done with signs and symbols.
Thus, when Scriptures says, dead was raised to life, the blind was cured...or, they went to the tomb, it was empty....these are that language. The language of inspiration. It is not a historical fact, just as the seven cows were not historical facts. But it is all about seeing the "Reality of things". That is spiritual Reality. Then it is possible to read through scriptures.

"for he who is speaking in an unknown tongue -- to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets" 1. Corin 14:2

So, God speaks by the language of spirit, which appears unknown to us. But this is how He tells us the secrets.

Thus, just as the man did not know how to interprete "seven cows eaten by the other seven" We also would not be able to interprete it ourselves. Just as Prophet Joseph had to interprete that for him, Baha'u'llah was the One who came to teach us the interpretations of these Scriptures, which has hidden meanings in them.

"Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?"

"But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it."

"Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah [Baha'u'llah], the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Revelation 5:2-5

 

[Avoice]

Both testaments have examples of Resurrection. I believe the interpretation is quite clear. However, I will look at your discussions more closely.

I've glanced at both threads and answered there some of what I thought.

While there is an Isaiah scripture that could be interpreted either way and is more likely a vision, I feel the Lazarus scripture is quite literal as a harbringer of the Resurrection of Christ to come and that of the rest of us to the judgement.

 

[InChrist]

What is the purpose of Miracles according to Scripture?

The purpose of miracles in the scriptures was always to cause people to see and understand the power and glory of the Living God.

You are suggestin the key word, here is being in the "Tomb" or "grave"
Well, there are many other places that the same word "grave" or "tomb" has a symbolic meaning, for example:

"O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." Psalms 30:3


"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it." Luke 11:44

"For the grave cannot praise you..." Isa. 38:18

Now how do we know, the word grave is not symbolic in "John 11:17?"

Being in grave can also mean, being in Sin. Being in the state of spritual death.

[/quote]


With each of the references above it is necessary to read the entire passage to determine the meaning of the word grave. In John 11 the context shows that Lazarus was sick and had physically died, was buried in the tomb, had been there four days, and his sisters and others were grieved over his death. Jesus literally brought Lazarus back to life to show God's power over life and death. To spiritualize the word grave or tomb in this passage is to completely disregard the plain meaning of the entire passage and the work of God Jesus was demonstrating.

Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.” John 11:38-44

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I feel the Lazarus scripture is quite literal

I think one of the verses that shows it is not literal is when Jesus says: "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Here the cloth of grave, represents the cloth of sin, and transgression.

Similar to when Jesus said:

"No man places a new strip of cloth and sews it on an old garment lest the fullness of that new cloth takes from the old, and it rips more.” Mark 2:21
Jesus compared the old and wrong way of life, with His own new way of life. (old cloth verses new cloth)



Now if we pay attention carefully, we see, there was no reason, for Jesus to ask Him literally to take off his cloth of grave in front of everyone else. He would be naked. Moreover, if the man literally became alive, he would realize and would take off his cloth of grave later anyways. Why should Jesus, say something obvious?




I think another key verse to interpret this story is this verse:

John 11:4 "When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."


Now we need to carefully analyze what the "Authors" of Bible meant by "glorifying God", not what we think "glorifying" means.

For that we can refer to other verses which are the key:


Mat. 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."


and

John 15:8 "Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit"

Thus it becomes clear that, according to the Authors of Bible, when the followers of Christ become fruitful and do good works and become righteous, then they Glorify God. Not performing literal Miracles as many would imagine, even as Jesus rejected to do any literal and physical Miracles:


"He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it." Mark 8:12


I think the story is a symbolically tells us that Lazarus was a sinful man, but later he became a righteous man (he was dead, then he became alive).
Now since Lazarus was dead in sin, spiritually sick in the eyes of others, and when Jesus made him spiritually alive and he did good works, by this God was glorified, because He had the power to make a sinner to become righteous.

"This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God"

This would be a lot more meaningful than physical Resurrection, which he died anyways. What's the point of bringing someone to life when he dies at the end anyways.

......as a harbringer of the Resurrection of Christ to come and that of the rest of us to the judgement.

The thing is that how do we know the Resurrection of Christ is literal?

What I am saying is that, outside of the Bible there is no historical evidence for Jesus physical resurrection.
And when we read Bible, the Author of Bible did not say they were writing literal historical Books. They said all Scriptures are inspired by God.
This inspiration is done with the tongue of spirit, not a physical literal language.


"for he who is speaking in an unknown tongue -- to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets" 1. Corin 14:2

So, God speaks by the language of spirit, which appears unknown to us. But this is how He tells us the secrets.

Now going back to the subject of resurrection of Jesus, I believe we should analyze what the Authors of Bible meant based on scriptures.
Now, the point is to find out "what did the Authors of New Testament mean", by saying Jesus was raised in the 3rd day. For that we need to read the scriptures, to see what they meant by Resurrection of the Body of Christ.

The answer is in their own Writing. This is the Key verses:

"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." 1 Cori. 12:27

So, I believe what the Authors meant is, that Once Jesus was killed, after 3 days, His Disciples, who were "The Body of Christ" raised. They raised to teach the cause of Christ. So, all this is expressed in a symbolic language.

...Christ to come and that of the rest of us to the judgement.

This also depends how you interpret the second coming of Christ.
For that we need to go back to Scriptures to see what it means by "Return".
I believe the Key is to remember the Prophecies regarding the Return of Elijah.
When John the Baptist appeared, Jesus said John was the return of Elijah. So, by "Return" was not meant the same exact person. But a new Person who has the same spiritual characteristic. This is the Key. The same key applies to unlock the mystery of return of Christ. That is return of another Person with the same Spiritual characteristic of Jesus.

I see the Bible as a Book that teaches certain things by examples. Then it tests us. If we read the Book well, and understood the "essence" of teachings, we can also know what the secrets are in the Book. It is like a Book, that requires keys to unlock the mysteries. But the Keys are in the Bible itself. It's just we need to find them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The purpose of miracles in the scriptures was always to cause people to see and understand the power and glory of the Living God.

I am not sure if this is described in the Scriptures.
In fact Jesus rejected to perform those literal and physical Miracles. This has been recorded in all 4 Gospels.

The appearant Mircales, are not physical Miracles. They are spiritual Miracles. The spiritually blind was healed. The Dead in Sin was raised to life. This mircale is more difficult and meaningful, than performing literal and physical miracles.
And the Scriptures defines what glorifies God, as the good works of the followers of Christ. In another words, when Jesus, raised the sinner, to righteousness and did good works, by this God was glorified.

With each of the references above it is necessary to read the entire passage to determine the meaning of the word grave.

The meaning of grave, can be understood from the verse in the story of lazarus too:

"Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Here the cloth of grave, represents the cloth of sin, and transgression.

Similar to when Jesus said:

"No man places a new strip of cloth and sews it on an old garment lest the fullness of that new cloth takes from the old, and it rips more.” Mark 2:21

Jesus compared the old and wrong way of life, with His own new way of life. (old cloth verses new cloth)


Now if we pay attention carefully, we see, there was no reason, for Jesus to ask Him literally to take off his cloth of grave in front of everyone else. He would be naked. Moreover, if the man literally became alive, he would realize and would take off his cloth of grave later anyways. Why should Jesus, say something obvious?

 

[CG Didymus]

It is believed by most people that the Scriptures contain both literal and symbolic verses and stories.
How do you decide where to interprete a passage literally and where to inteprete it symbolically or Figuratively.
I am looking for a method that can be used to decide "consistantly" if a passage is symbolic or literal.

You've shown where to take verses symbolically. Which ones do you take literally? If you could, maybe go into that other part of the Bible, the Hebrew part, and explain a Baha'i interpretation of Creation and the meaning of the Law. Why did God want or need animal sacrifices?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Which ones do you take literally?

The social laws or works are literal.
For example, the marriage and divorce law, the Sabbath, the punishments for stealing...

If you could, maybe go into that other part of the Bible, the Hebrew part, and explain a Baha'i interpretation of Creation

The Creation Story is about creation of human in 6 days in a spiritual sense, starting from time of Adam.
That is 6000 years (a day is 1000 yrs in Hebrew scriptures)

Think of human as a physical body and his spirit, which this is How Bible describes. The Spirit needs to be trained by the Word of God, so that this physical species may be called human. 6000 years of Progressive Revelation, Created the human and brought us to this Age, in which we are finally advanced enough to be said, God created human on the 6th day.
On the sixth day, is marked with Baha'i Revelation.
That means for example, in the past 6000 years before Baha'i faith, there was no such a belief in equality of men and women. But after the Baha'i Revelation, the humanity started to accept this equality gradually. The Baha'is see this as a result of enlightenment by Baha'ullah that effected the world.
But why God did not reveal this enlightenment before Baha'i Faith? Baha'is believe that humanity was not ready yet. It took six thousands years for human to be ready to receive this new Revelation which can create human. Hence it is said God created human on the sixth day.

and the meaning of the Law.

The Laws in Bible are two types. The spiritual laws, for example Love of God.
The Social Laws or Works, for example the punishment for stealing.

Why did God want or need animal sacrifices?

can you quote some verses?

 

[CG Didymus]

The social laws or works are literal.
For example, the marriage and divorce law, the Sabbath, the punishments for stealing...
can you quote some verses?

Leviticus chapter 9 has some animal sacrifices. But I have another question for you. When the Baha'is explain the different religions as being similar to different grades in school--I would agree more with an explanation that allowed for religion to be man's interpretation of concepts and ideas about God--not necessarily God revealing truth to man. This would allow for religious ideas to be wrong, even man made in some cases, but it would allow the different ideas to evolve.

 

[Reverend Richard]

Leviticus chapter 9 has some animal sacrifices. But I have another question for you. When the Baha'is explain the different religions as being similar to different grades in school--I would agree more with an explanation that allowed for religion to be man's interpretation of concepts and ideas about God--not necessarily God revealing truth to man. This would allow for religious ideas to be wrong, even man made in some cases, but it would allow the different ideas to evolve.

This makes a lot of sense. Anyone can be divinely inspired to write scripture because, I believe, we each have a spark of the divine in us. But you put it very well when you say that God does not necessarily reveal "truth" to man. If God actually wanted to reveal his truth to us, God would know how to do it once and then perhaps remind us ocassionally, but not come up with new scripture, a new prophet, and and a new narrative every thousand years or so. All that seems to do is breed confusion, not to mention continue to fuel religious wars and more killing. Surely God is smart enough to see that the current method is not working very well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....But I have another question for you. When the Baha'is explain the different religions as being similar to different grades in school--I would agree more with an explanation that allowed for religion to be man's interpretation of concepts and ideas about God--not necessarily God revealing truth to man. This would allow for religious ideas to be wrong, even man made in some cases, but it would allow the different ideas to evolve.

ok, then i try to discuss your other question and maybe later i have a look at lev. chapter 9.

In my understanding, there have been early believers in every Religion that interpreted the Scriptures exactly the way Baha'i Faith does. With my research I could find evidence and traces of that in most of World Religions.
But perhaps the message was changed, or the majority did have a different interpretation.

About revealing Truth by God, Baha'i Faith Teaches that Absolut Truth is God, and He gradually, reveals the Truth. In another Words, Truth is relative.
However, In my understanding there are certain spiritual Truths that are revealed by God. But that is understood different by different people.

For example, in Previous Religions it is said God is One. Now, in baha'i Scriptures, Abdulbaha said "The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality."
So, in another words, if we say God is One, that is wrong, for numbers are used for materialistic things, not for Divine Reality. Nontheless it was written God is One, because that was relatively Truth. In another Words, it was a lot more wrong to say God is Plural, than to say He is One. Thus Truth is revealed relatively and gradually by God.

 

[CG Didymus]

This makes a lot of sense. Anyone can be divinely inspired to write scripture because, I believe, we each have a spark of the divine in us. But you put it very well when you say that God does not necessarily reveal "truth" to man. If God actually wanted to reveal his truth to us, God would know how to do it once and then perhaps remind us ocassionally, but not come up with new scripture, a new prophet, and and a new narrative every thousand years or so. All that seems to do is breed confusion, not to mention continue to fuel religious wars and more killing. Surely God is smart enough to see that the current method is not working very well.

Yeah, so many times I've run into charismatic spiritual people that have taken old themes and reworked them into a new "path." They believe God "spoke" to them. Everyone calls them crazy or a false prophet, but in a lot of ways the new path is way more spiritual than the stagnant established religion. You stated it very well when you said that if God was really revealing the truth it would be more consistent.

 

[Aamer]

Yeah, so many times I've run into charismatic spiritual people that have taken old themes and reworked them into a new "path." They believe God "spoke" to them. Everyone calls them crazy or a false prophet, but in a lot of ways the new path is way more spiritual than the stagnant established religion. You stated it very well when you said that if God was really revealing the truth it would be more consistent.

The Quran is consistent and without any contradictions. The contradictions listed on Anti-Islam sites are not contradictions. They're cheating by showing you some parts and hiding others. I have found contradictions in every other scripture I've read but never in Quran. Peace!

Gods test for judging scripture:
Quran
[4:82] Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions.

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

 

[Reverend Richard]

The Quran is consistent and without any contradictions. The contradictions listed on Anti-Islam sites are not contradictions. They're cheating by showing you some parts and hiding others. I have found contradictions in every other scripture I've read but never in Quran. Peace!

Gods test for judging scripture:
Quran
[4:82] Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions.

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

Christians make exactly the same claim regarding contradictions in the New Testament, and many times with exactly the same justification. Any scripture that was revealed to a human, or written by a human is imperfect. If any scripture were, or could be unequivocally proven to be perfect, then there not be multiple denominations among the different religions. Christians, Muslims and Jews all disagree amongst themselves with regard to scripture. In the meantime, God remains silent as to who is correct (or incorrect).

 

[Aamer]

Christians make exactly the same claim regarding contradictions in the New Testament, and many times with exactly the same justification. Any scripture that was revealed to a human, or written by a human is imperfect. If any scripture were, or could be unequivocally proven to be perfect, then there not be multiple denominations among the different religions. Christians, Muslims and Jews all disagree amongst themselves with regard to scripture. In the meantime, God remains silent as to who is correct (or incorrect).

Muslims don't disagree on the Quran. Every Muslim regardless of sect, reads the same Quran. They differ on which Hadith books they follow. Hadith books were written 250+ years after Muhammad by humans. They are supposedly the sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad but they're full of contradictions. I personally don't consider them to be part of Islam as they were not authorized by God or the Prophet. Sunnis have their own set of Hadith books they consider authentic and shiites have their own. But they don't differ on Quran. The mistake they made was allowing Hadith books to become part of their religion. So comparing Quran to Bible is like comparing apples to oranges. Quran has one author (God) and is one single book. The Bible is a compilation of several books by several authors. Example... Gospel of Mark, Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Luke, etc. Sometimes they tell the same story but Matthews account contradicts Lukes account and so forth. As for the claim that Bible also uses the same argument against contradictions, I don't think you're understanding what I mean about contradiction. I'll show you in another post the difference between a material contradiction in the Bible and alleged contradictions in Quran. Peace.

 

[Aamer]

Material contradiction in New Testament about Jesus' first sermon

MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."*

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

As you can see above, Matthew and Luke can't agree on the location of this historical event. Was it on a mountain or a plain?

Here's the most famous alleged "contradiction" in Quran

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion...
VS.
[4:89] They hope that you will reject as they have rejected, then you will be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and KILL THEM wherever you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.

Anti-Islam sites as well as ignorant Muslim fanatics LOVE to quote 4:89. What they conveniently forget to do is quote the verse immediately after it. Here it is...

[4:90] Except for those who reach a people with whom you have a covenant, or if they come to you with a reluctance in their chests to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you. But if they retire from you, and do not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a path against them.

If you read the whole section, it's obvious this violence against unbelievers is talking about cases of self defense or if you're being kicked out of your homes because of your faith. Here's another verse to clarify how to treat unbelievers...

[60:8] God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your faith, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

It's quite obvious that violence is only allowed in cases of self defense or if you're being kicked out of your homes. If that's not the case, God commands us to deal kindly with unbelievers. There are no contradictions in Quran. Some people make it appear so by cutting out certain verses and hiding others. You will find no material contradictions in Quran like the one I showed above from Matthew and Luke. And that was just one of many examples. Peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Quran is consistent and without any contradictions. The contradictions listed on Anti-Islam sites are not contradictions. They're cheating by showing you some parts and hiding others. I have found contradictions in every other scripture I've read but never in Quran. Peace!

Gods test for judging scripture:
Quran
[4:82] Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many contradictions.

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

Investigate Truth's methods of interpretation dissolve contradictions between all religions. Is the Baha'i Faith the next step for us all? If we all became Baha'is instead of Jewish, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc would we get along? Or, would we still fight over something? Actually, I don't think we'd become Baha'is in the first place. We each believe are own religions too much to let them go. We would each find falsehoods and contradictions in the Baha'i Faith and find ways to prove them wrong and keep believing ours is the only right religion.

 

[Aamer]

Investigate Truth's methods of interpretation dissolve contradictions between all religions. Is the Baha'i Faith the next step for us all? If we all became Baha'is instead of Jewish, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist etc would we get along? Or, would we still fight over something? Actually, I don't think we'd become Baha'is in the first place. We each believe are own religions too much to let them go. We would each find falsehoods and contradictions in the Baha'i Faith and find ways to prove them wrong and keep believing ours is the only right religion.

I have already left my birth religion and became Sunni. After realizing that Hadith were man made innovations, I left Sunnism too. Quran is the only thing I can rely on and feel congruent about. I have looked into the Baha'I faith briefly and wasn't convinced. It didn't have the same effect on me that Quran did. I have no emotional attachment to anything except the truth. If you could prove to me that Baha'I is the true religion, I would indeed convert. But so far, I haven't seen the evidence. Peace.