How to keep the ToE alive - 101

[outhouse]

There is no debate?

evolution is based on observable FACTS there is no debate about evolution at all.

What are we doing?

educating those that doent understand basic biology

And what are the people in the article doing?

Not employing a fool because he wants to teach myths instead of science

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was responding to your post that said protect evolution.

... which itself was a re-phrasing of your argument. I was trying to get you to clarify your position.

Did you bother to read my post before you hit "reply"?

This analogy doesn't help. I could walk up one or twenty flights of stairs but I would still be a human.

I think you missed the point of the analogy.

Different species are like different floors in a building. If you walk up a gentle slope long enough, eventually you'll be on a different storey from where you started... even if the path you took felt almost level to you.

Same with evolution: many, many small changes add up to large change. This is why it doesn't work to argue that small change is possible but large change is impossible. They're the same thing.

From direct observation, nobody has every seen a frog mutate into anything other than another frog. A frog to a Prince over millions of years is just imagination and presupposition.

From direct observation, has anyone ever seen evolution hit some sort of "wall" that stops it from proceeding further?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

2nd question
no i didn't imply that. evolution doesn't need to be protected. the bible needs to be. faith as you have clearly demonstrated relies on presumption, not so with science...

The other difference is the scientific method is falsifiable and has no problem with change in an understanding when new evidence comes to light. MOF has already stated the biblical creation story is a narrative...so what else is needed in determining that story to have any scientific value? NONE....because none is available in that fictitious story......(it's a narrative)......

 

[Skwim]

The ToE contradicts the Bible.

Perhaps. And this is one of the Achilles heel of the creationist's source material, the Bible. Not all who take the Bible as true interpret it the same way. Some, such as yourself, coming up with interpretations diametrically opposed to that of other Christians. Hell, we have 30,000 some odd Christian denominations that speak to this failing of the Bible. This is not the case with evolution and its source material. Except for minor disagreements as to some of its details, just about every scientist accepts evolution and all of its broader concepts, whereas there are numerous, NUMEROUS, Christians who are in disagreement over creationism. Unlike the Bible, which has produced a fractured Christian position, the evidence of science has proven far to compelling to create such a rift among scientists.

And what does this tell us? Well, unlike Christian's, who are obligated to acknowledge and accept the dissension among its members as reasonable, the almost unanimous backing of evolution among scientists would indicate that those among its ranks who do not agree with it are either ignorant of the facts, or have, for some very strange reason, dismissed it out of hand. Therefore, any scientist who does so should be regarded with some suspicion. If we have a professor of botany who doesn't believe in atomic theory, one would expect that either he was asleep in class his freshman year, or he has such a bias against it as to make his suitability as a scientist suspect. Would you choose minister for your church if he thought that in procreation men plant an actual seed, one akin to those of plants, in a woman? Or thought that delusions and hallucinations were true alternate realities that stood on equal footing to the one we're in?

Unreasonable dissent from an almost universal position within a discipline, science in this case, is a warning sign of either intellectual dishonesty or incompetence. Take your pick, either is grounds for suspicion and caution.

 

[Father Heathen]

"How to keep the ToE alive"? It's silly to suggest that science is somehow threatened by superstition.

 

[McBell]

"How to keep the ToE alive"? It's silly to suggest that science is somehow threatened by superstition.

What do you expect from dishonest people who promote dishonesty?

 

[Man of Faith]

The other difference is the scientific method is falsifiable and has no problem with change in an understanding when new evidence comes to light. MOF has already stated the biblical creation story is a narrative...so what else is needed in determining that story to have any scientific value? NONE....because none is available in that fictitious story......(it's a narrative)......

It is not a prerequisite that a narrative be fictitious.

 

[LuisDantas]

If it is incompatible with facts known to be true, however, then it must be either false or in some way ficticious. That is why the Bible is considered largely alegoric by most sane Christians.

 

[Man of Faith]

If it is incompatible with facts known to be true, however, then it must be either false or in some way ficticious. That is why the Bible is considered largely alegoric by most sane Christians.

It's not incompatible with facts, just the evolution model of common descent of all life forms.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It is not a prerequisite that a narrative be fictitious.

What LuisDantas said.......:clap

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It's not incompatible with facts, just evolution philosophy such as common descent of all life forms.

Because the bible shows no "facts"......that's why. You given no reason why "common decent" is not factual..I'm waiting because this ought to to be good....:beach:

 

[ellenjanuary]

Are you putting science with should be objective to the Bible that takes faith? I will agree with you that the reason evolution has to be protected is because it isn't objective science.

It is a customary practice derived from membership in this forum that one debate the post, not the poster; yet as a mathematician I serve a higher purpose...

1 And at dawn he came again to the temple, 2 and all the people were coming unto him, and having sat down, he was teaching them; 3 and the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman having been taken in adultery, and having set her in the midst, 4 they say to him, `Teacher, this woman was taken in the very crime--committing adultery, 5 and in the law, Moses did command us that such be stoned; thou, therefore, what dost thou say?' 6 and this they said, trying him, that they might have to accuse him. And Jesus, having stooped down, with the finger he was writing on the ground, 7 and when they continued asking him, having bent himself back, he said unto them, `The sinless of you--let him first cast the stone at her;' 8 and again having stooped down, he was writing on the ground, 9 and they having heard, and by the conscience being convicted, were going forth one by one, having begun from the elders--unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 And Jesus having bent himself back, and having seen no one but the woman, said to her, `Woman, where are those--thine accusers? did no one pass sentence upon thee?' 11 and she said, `No one, Sir;' and Jesus said to her, `Neither do I pass sentence on thee; be going on, and no more sin.'

Man of Faith, did you know that there is a clear historical parallel to the parable above? There once was a man of such great wisdom and understanding that his contemporaries considered him a most powerful magician, and the overgrown of the land could no no other but consider said man his most sage advisor. Furthermore, when the end times came upon this man homeland, the record of his nearly single-handed stopping a budding empire in its tracks is not a matter of theological consideration, but of historical fact. And when his land's new lawgivers came unto him; seeking to witness such power before passing sentence, that man too, was drawing in the sand. That man, too; did not deign to give those who would claim law authority to judge him guilty when his understanding was greater than law. That man too, continued to draw in the sand.

Perhaps it is telling that what separates fact from parable is that when law enforcers encounter such willful disregard for their identity in the real world; assumption of innocence is suspended, presumption of guilt is enforced, and the rabble gets roused. At least justice was quick for the man in my anecdote; for the crime of failing to acknowledge the imperial majesty of Rome in the person of a nameless centurion, one of history's great figures took a gladius to the chest.

Do you know of this man? More importantly, do you know the art of storytelling? What is mere historical curiosity to entertainment-saturated individuals like us, was the stuff of legend to raconteurs thriving on epic accomplishment, was likened to a feast of nectar and ambrosia to a people whose daily grind was far more everyday; and far, far more like grind.

J'accuse,' Man of Faith; shall I list your sins? For above, consider; a book that does not speak. But a quote from which three men question your authority as a Pharisee, as a scholar; but perhaps most importantly, as a Christian.

The Bible says, the Bible says, the Bible says; yet was is not spoken is heard most clearly. Where is god, in your consideration? By whose acknowledgment are you entitled to speak for "what the Bible says?" Have you stood before the creator of the universe and accepted the entitlement of prophet? Have you acquired a degree in divinity or theology from an accredited university? Are you the one "without sin," as spoken of by the Christ?

Or are you just a tool of the adversary? Do you recognize yourself in the Pharisee? You should. Over and over you repeat; the Bible says, the Bible says, but I don't hear anything. Other than the echoes that often recur from the oldest book of the Bible.

For to snow He saith, `Be on the earth.' And the small rain and great rain of His power. 7 Into the hand of every man he sealeth, For the knowledge by all men of His work. 8 And enter doth the beast into covert, And in its habitations it doth continue. 9 From the inner chamber cometh a hurricane, And from scatterings winds--cold, 10 From the breath of God is frost given, And the breadth of waters is straitened, 11 Yea, by filling He doth press out a cloud, Scatter a cloud doth His light. 12 And it is turning itself round by His counsels, For their doing all He commandeth them, On the face of the habitable earth. 13 Whether for a rod, or for His land, Or for kindness--He doth cause it to come.
14 Hear this, O Job, Stand and consider the wonders of God. 15 Dost thou know when God doth place them, And caused to shine the light of His cloud? 16 Dost thou know the balancings of a cloud? The wonders of the Perfect in knowledge? 17 How thy garments are warm, In the quieting of the earth from the south? 18 Thou hast made an expanse with Him For the clouds--strong as a hard mirror! 19 Let us know what we say to Him, We set not in array because of darkness. 20 Is it declared to Him that I speak? If a man hath spoken, surely he is swallowed up.
21 And now, they have not seen the light, Bright it is in the clouds, And the wind hath passed by and cleanseth them. 22 From the golden north it cometh, Beside God is fearful honour. 23 The Mighty! we have not found Him out, High in power and judgment, He doth not answer! And abundant in righteousness, 24 Therefore do men fear Him, He seeth not any of the wise of heart.

Do you know the balancings of a cloud? The wonders of the Perfect in knowledge? No, you do not. Yours is a faith based on dogmatic assumption that fellowship in sharing the body of Christ is a morally unassailable position from which to stone all, indiscriminately. What is the significance of the Bible beyond a thousand-year reign of Christian theocracy? It is not supposed to be "miraculously consistant" over hundreds of authors and thousands of years? Then how much more miraculous, that a single book with a single writer was essentially the entire Holy Scripture for a thousand years? And how does scripture propagate? By divine interference? Or by teaching timeless wisdom, by presenting a syllabus where the basics are covered in detail before a mature lesson plan is even considered?

And what does the Christian attribute to the Book of Job? A mortal tale of mortal woe, a man who needed to be tested because the Almighty somehow needs positive reinforcement. Students need reinforcement; that is one thing many Christians have learned all to well. and like the product of an uninspired educator they repeat what was rote. Satan. Satan. Satan. Satan.

Where two or more are gathered, there I am. Remember that Christian directive, to witness? Are you witnessing? When there was a man of singular righteousness; for the benefit of all, god tested the faith of the one. One might think a storyline seventy percent on plot would make an impression on an eager student, but I guess the agenda of teachers has changed. God is beyond understanding is the plot summary; beyond the understanding of the righteous man, beyond the understanding of the righteous contemporaries, beyond the understanding of a thousand years of Bible Study as well it seems. Listen to what the Bible says. This is not the word of a prophet who must warn of tribulation, this is not the word of an apostle forwarding a missionary agenda, this is not the dictation of law to a generational patriarch, the is the Source, expressing a singular, fundamental concept.

God is not to be understood.

Most tellingly, how does the Source go about the education of he who was once righteous? By scientific understanding, and scientific conjecture. Does thou know the balancings of a cloud? For I just might. For I have a scientific understanding of what it means to be created in god's image. Even if, as the Bible states and the Christian ignores, man in god's image was created on the sixth day; while Adam occurred in a different account, engineered of dust and breath.

Have you not heard a clear evolutionary trend? That when god is known to be beyond understanding; a Christ appears with new understanding? That rather than the stagnation of inflexible law, a new synthesis would form; the body of the living god - of many, one; of one, many, that justification through faith rather than mere ritual of works, of law, would provide a more fluid and robust spirituality? That when one is not taught merely to memorize and propagate dogma, but rather become the living vessel of a vital theology; is it not true that what the Bible says is but an insignificant fraction of what the Bible has taught?

It is not I who has dared add or subtract from the book of prophecy; for "macro-evolution" is a meaningful concept like "diet" is a meaningful soda. Evolution is not a tool to be used to look backwards to see monkeys, evolution is a tool to be used to look forwards to see more like god. And then god can be even more unknowable.

 

[Man of Faith]

Because the bible shows no "facts"......that's why. You given no reason why "common decent" is not factual..I'm waiting because this ought to to be good....:beach:

Science says that it isn't a fact.

 

[Man of Faith]

It is a customary practice derived from membership in this forum that one debate the post, not the poster; yet as a mathematician I serve a higher purpose...

1 And at dawn he came again to the temple, 2 and all the people were coming unto him, and having sat down, he was teaching them; 3 and the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman having been taken in adultery, and having set her in the midst, 4 they say to him, `Teacher, this woman was taken in the very crime--committing adultery, 5 and in the law, Moses did command us that such be stoned; thou, therefore, what dost thou say?' 6 and this they said, trying him, that they might have to accuse him. And Jesus, having stooped down, with the finger he was writing on the ground, 7 and when they continued asking him, having bent himself back, he said unto them, `The sinless of you--let him first cast the stone at her;' 8 and again having stooped down, he was writing on the ground, 9 and they having heard, and by the conscience being convicted, were going forth one by one, having begun from the elders--unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 And Jesus having bent himself back, and having seen no one but the woman, said to her, `Woman, where are those--thine accusers? did no one pass sentence upon thee?' 11 and she said, `No one, Sir;' and Jesus said to her, `Neither do I pass sentence on thee; be going on, and no more sin.'

Man of Faith, did you know that there is a clear historical parallel to the parable above? There once was a man of such great wisdom and understanding that his contemporaries considered him a most powerful magician, and the overgrown of the land could no no other but consider said man his most sage advisor. Furthermore, when the end times came upon this man homeland, the record of his nearly single-handed stopping a budding empire in its tracks is not a matter of theological consideration, but of historical fact. And when his land's new lawgivers came unto him; seeking to witness such power before passing sentence, that man too, was drawing in the sand. That man, too; did not deign to give those who would claim law authority to judge him guilty when his understanding was greater than law. That man too, continued to draw in the sand.

Perhaps it is telling that what separates fact from parable is that when law enforcers encounter such willful disregard for their identity in the real world; assumption of innocence is suspended, presumption of guilt is enforced, and the rabble gets roused. At least justice was quick for the man in my anecdote; for the crime of failing to acknowledge the imperial majesty of Rome in the person of a nameless centurion, one of history's great figures took a gladius to the chest.

Do you know of this man? More importantly, do you know the art of storytelling? What is mere historical curiosity to entertainment-saturated individuals like us, was the stuff of legend to raconteurs thriving on epic accomplishment, was likened to a feast of nectar and ambrosia to a people whose daily grind was far more everyday; and far, far more like grind.

J'accuse,' Man of Faith; shall I list your sins? For above, consider; a book that does not speak. But a quote from which three men question your authority as a Pharisee, as a scholar; but perhaps most importantly, as a Christian.

The Bible says, the Bible says, the Bible says; yet was is not spoken is heard most clearly. Where is god, in your consideration? By whose acknowledgment are you entitled to speak for "what the Bible says?" Have you stood before the creator of the universe and accepted the entitlement of prophet? Have you acquired a degree in divinity or theology from an accredited university? Are you the one "without sin," as spoken of by the Christ?

Or are you just a tool of the adversary? Do you recognize yourself in the Pharisee? You should. Over and over you repeat; the Bible says, the Bible says, but I don't hear anything. Other than the echoes that often recur from the oldest book of the Bible.

For to snow He saith, `Be on the earth.' And the small rain and great rain of His power. 7 Into the hand of every man he sealeth, For the knowledge by all men of His work. 8 And enter doth the beast into covert, And in its habitations it doth continue. 9 From the inner chamber cometh a hurricane, And from scatterings winds--cold, 10 From the breath of God is frost given, And the breadth of waters is straitened, 11 Yea, by filling He doth press out a cloud, Scatter a cloud doth His light. 12 And it is turning itself round by His counsels, For their doing all He commandeth them, On the face of the habitable earth. 13 Whether for a rod, or for His land, Or for kindness--He doth cause it to come.
14 Hear this, O Job, Stand and consider the wonders of God. 15 Dost thou know when God doth place them, And caused to shine the light of His cloud? 16 Dost thou know the balancings of a cloud? The wonders of the Perfect in knowledge? 17 How thy garments are warm, In the quieting of the earth from the south? 18 Thou hast made an expanse with Him For the clouds--strong as a hard mirror! 19 Let us know what we say to Him, We set not in array because of darkness. 20 Is it declared to Him that I speak? If a man hath spoken, surely he is swallowed up.
21 And now, they have not seen the light, Bright it is in the clouds, And the wind hath passed by and cleanseth them. 22 From the golden north it cometh, Beside God is fearful honour. 23 The Mighty! we have not found Him out, High in power and judgment, He doth not answer! And abundant in righteousness, 24 Therefore do men fear Him, He seeth not any of the wise of heart.

Do you know the balancings of a cloud? The wonders of the Perfect in knowledge? No, you do not. Yours is a faith based on dogmatic assumption that fellowship in sharing the body of Christ is a morally unassailable position from which to stone all, indiscriminately. What is the significance of the Bible beyond a thousand-year reign of Christian theocracy? It is not supposed to be "miraculously consistant" over hundreds of authors and thousands of years? Then how much more miraculous, that a single book with a single writer was essentially the entire Holy Scripture for a thousand years? And how does scripture propagate? By divine interference? Or by teaching timeless wisdom, by presenting a syllabus where the basics are covered in detail before a mature lesson plan is even considered?

And what does the Christian attribute to the Book of Job? A mortal tale of mortal woe, a man who needed to be tested because the Almighty somehow needs positive reinforcement. Students need reinforcement; that is one thing many Christians have learned all to well. and like the product of an uninspired educator they repeat what was rote. Satan. Satan. Satan. Satan.

Where two or more are gathered, there I am. Remember that Christian directive, to witness? Are you witnessing? When there was a man of singular righteousness; for the benefit of all, god tested the faith of the one. One might think a storyline seventy percent on plot would make an impression on an eager student, but I guess the agenda of teachers has changed. God is beyond understanding is the plot summary; beyond the understanding of the righteous man, beyond the understanding of the righteous contemporaries, beyond the understanding of a thousand years of Bible Study as well it seems. Listen to what the Bible says. This is not the word of a prophet who must warn of tribulation, this is not the word of an apostle forwarding a missionary agenda, this is not the dictation of law to a generational patriarch, the is the Source, expressing a singular, fundamental concept.

God is not to be understood.

Most tellingly, how does the Source go about the education of he who was once righteous? By scientific understanding, and scientific conjecture. Does thou know the balancings of a cloud? For I just might. For I have a scientific understanding of what it means to be created in god's image. Even if, as the Bible states and the Christian ignores, man in god's image was created on the sixth day; while Adam occurred in a different account, engineered of dust and breath.

Have you not heard a clear evolutionary trend? That when god is known to be beyond understanding; a Christ appears with new understanding? That rather than the stagnation of inflexible law, a new synthesis would form; the body of the living god - of many, one; of one, many, that justification through faith rather than mere ritual of works, of law, would provide a more fluid and robust spirituality? That when one is not taught merely to memorize and propagate dogma, but rather become the living vessel of a vital theology; is it not true that what the Bible says is but an insignificant fraction of what the Bible has taught?

It is not I who has dared add or subtract from the book of prophecy; for "macro-evolution" is a meaningful concept like "diet" is a meaningful soda. Evolution is not a tool to be used to look backwards to see monkeys, evolution is a tool to be used to look forwards to see more like god. And then god can be even more unknowable.

Can you summarize this in three short paragraphs? I have a hard time reading so many words. I don't mind reading chapters but I need to first be interested in the book. Thank you.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I think it has been clearly shown that if any objective scientific evidence contradicts ManofFaiths literalistic interpretation of Genesis, he will reject it offhand.

Evidence does not matter to the dogmatist.

 

[Skwim]

Science says that it isn't a fact.

Spoken like a true creationist: when all else fails simply make up crap.

 

[Breathe]

Science says that it isn't a fact.

How does it?

Can you give alternatives--or one alternative--with the the mechanics behind the alternative [/alternatives], besides saying "The Bible"?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Science says that it isn't a fact.

NO IT DOESN'T....This is a dishonest statement born from ignorance......

[youtube]G0UGpcea8Zg[/youtube]
YouTube - Facts Of Evolution: Universal Common Descent

 

[Riverwolf]

Guess my little discourse on how evolution works is being completely ignored.

 

[outhouse]

Guess my little discourse on how evolution works is being completely ignored.

Ive been using them on my rchelicopter forums lol in the off topic section