How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...

[rocketman]

Here's a clear example: when a person's prefrontal cortex is damaged, they lose their ability to feel emotions, including (in some cases) the ability to feel guilt, and they lose their ability to weigh the future consequences of their behavior. Such people often lie, steal, and cheat, even though they may have been the most upstanding, moral, foresighted citizens before they suffered the injury.

Right. Of course, not everyone similarly injured exhibits any or all of these changes, and of those that do many feel they haven't done anything wrong. I wonder if what is being affected is an actual sense of right and wrong or simply just a garbling of received information. This all reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the android Data's evil twin Lore deactivates Data's 'ethical subroutine'. But I think there is more to it. It's a fascinating mystery. One question that arises is: how do we decide how to decide? Could those inclined to atheism have specific differences in their frontal lobe compared to those inclined to be theists I wonder?

Some related reading if anyone is interested:

Deciding how to decide: ventromedial frontal lobe damage affects information acquisition in multi-attribute decision making -- Fellows 129 (4): 944 -- Brain

 

[roli]

God lets you cause as much harm as you want to until after you die and once the righteous are already in heaven they cannot be harmed so.... It is not an analogous comparison.

Well, again ,that is given alot of credit to God and taken none on for yourself, it appears you just don't get that part...
Is this your line of thought ...."God made me, so god is responsible for everything I do ,think and say, " ,that is a lame excuse and lack of responsibility.
Is that what you say, when you do something wrong ,blameshift and look to justify yourself, never take responsibility
Do you have children or spouse,you don't make them love you ,that would not be love but slavery, you give them the option and the chocie to love you and that is more rewarding and gradifying for all, then forceable affection.

God did'nt let you cause harm, HIS LOVE HAS ALLOWED YOU TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT,your actions are the cause of your disobedience to God's law, civil law and your conscience inside of you which is to warn you of what evil your about to do.
Society ,pressures of life,worries,fears, rationalisation are all part of what influences your decisions, your choice is what initiates those actions

Ah, but what is that justice? Does the judge sentence his son to eternal punishment?

The son either has to pay with his (finite) life in jail or be executed. That is justice.

I understand that to grasp eternal justice in the way God describes it,and the way man perceive justice should be, will seem unfair and totally illogical to who God is claimed to be ,that of love,to say the least, and more so ,I think, to those who offend and continually disobey him and refuse to accept him.
In our society we think the justice handed down is the be all end all ,but have no comprehension of anything outside the here and now.
So ,I guess we will never know.

God should not punish us for the way he created us.

This is the whole point ,we may have escaped the wrath of God's and his full punishment now ,up until today,but that in and of itself is God';s grace giving us one more day to be forgiven, but the bible says
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Do you see that it is being stored up for us ,unless we repent.

[

QUOTE]God knew what would happen. God knew that being human means making mistakes.

That is exactly why he constantly pleaded with men to turn to him ,not for some dominent dictator like power over them, but to bless them and change them from their wicked nature and the effects thereof, that is why he made a way for man to be forgiven if they would only come to him.
This seems to make no sense to the human rationale ,but nevertheless that is who he is.
But man continue to take the defense and the position of justifying and excusing oneself rather than humbly surrender and submit themselves to his law, and have taken things into their own hands and have done so to date

This is not me trying to get out of punishment. I will accept all punishments upon me I have caused to people over the course of my life, but anything over the pain I have caused is against justice

That is an admirable position to take ,but we are talking in terms of human justice.
I am not here to defend or make you see God's love for man and his justicve for those who refuse to accept and receive him and his son.
God clearly says "that man's wisdom will not comprehend the things of God,neither can or will they know them ,for they are spiritually discerned, so for us to to logically try and discern this action God will take,his nature,existence, heaven,hell,judgemnet etc will only come through a Holy Spirit revelation

 

[Darkness]

God clearly says "that man's wisdom will not comprehend the things of God,neither can or will they know them ,for they are spiritually discerned, so for us to to logically try and discern this action God will take,his nature,existence, heaven,hell,judgemnet etc will only come through a Holy Spirit revelation

This is why all debate with you is useless. Nothing I can ever say will phase you, because "God is just righteous in some transcendent way." Once you discard logic, you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

[roli]

This is why all debate with you is useless. Nothing I can ever say will phase you, because "God is just righteous in some transcendent way." Once you discard logic, you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I could say the same about you concerning the deep things of God, they are not perceived by your mere intellect and logic.That is God's plan that man find him one way ,that is through his Holy Spirit
Man's wisdom and diligent pursuit for proof of God's existence will be vanity, until his spirit reveals it to you.That happens when one is truly looking for him out of need for salvation
Do you understand that this could be fact that God does not reveal himself through the wisdom of man,or do you dismiss this possibility and what I say, as nonsense.
If that is the case I shall move on from responding with you. but before that read this below and this will explain that God relies not on man's wisdom to find him or prove him

This might be very hard to read ,so I recommend viewer discretion is advised
1Cr 1:18-20 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas."So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense.
1Cr 1:21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

Someday ,if ever you cross over into an encounter with the living God, you will understand

 

[sandandfoam]

I could say the same about you concerning the deep things of God, they are not perceived by your mere intellect and logic.That is God's plan that man find him one way ,that is through his Holy Spirit
Man's wisdom and diligent pursuit for proof of God's existence will be vanity, until his spirit reveals it to you.That happens when one is truly looking for him out of need for salvation
Do you understand that this could be fact that God does not reveal himself through the wisdom of man,or do you dismiss this possibility and what I say, as nonsense.
If that is the case I shall move on from responding with you. but before that read this below and this will explain that God relies not on man's wisdom to find him or prove him

This might be very hard to read ,so I recommend viewer discretion is advised
1Cr 1:18-20 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas."So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense.
1Cr 1:21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

Someday ,if ever you cross over into an encounter with the living God, you will understand

With respect, I think everyone is rational in their own terms but this argument:-

"As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas"

seems very negative. Not everyone believes in God but given that you clearly do, Why would He have given humanity the ability to reason if he didn't expect them to use it?

 

[Darkness]

Do you understand that this could be fact that God does not reveal himself through the wisdom of man,or do you dismiss this possibility and what I say, as nonsense.

It is certainly possible.

I could say the same about you concerning the deep things of God, they are not perceived by your mere intellect and logic.That is God's plan that man find him one way ,that is through his Holy Spirit
Man's wisdom and diligent pursuit for proof of God's existence will be vanity, until his spirit reveals it to you.That happens when one is truly looking for him out of need for salvation

But I have been on the path of faith. For three months, I gave myself completely over to the Will of God. What more do you want? What more does God want?

 

[roli]

With respect, I think everyone is rational in their own terms but this argument:-

Indeed they are, but I am not talking generically ,I mean we all need and use logic and rationale in every aspect of life.
That is why man thinks they can also use reason and logic in the existence ,nature ,character and actions of God .
This is noble ,to say the least ,but that is not ,nor has it ever been the way to the throne room of God, if I came in logic, then I come, as if I have him all figured out and that is rooted in arrogance and pride.
God says man can come through a broken spirit and a contrite heart ,that my freind is humility, that is reverence and awe in who he is.
That only happens when God is drawing them by his spirit and no man can eneter unless he goes through the door ,gate the way ,which is Jesus Christ, that is the cross the blood
Man comes to God not through science, although he does say "just from what is created man will be without excuse Rom 1, nor does man come through logic, he comes through his spirit, end of story ,any other pursuit is vanity to even discuss.

"As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas" seems very negative. Not everyone believes in God but given that you clearly do, Why would He have given humanity the ability to reason if he didn't expect them to use it

Think about man for a minute,if they could find him, explain him,define him, by wisdom and intellect ,would you think that man may possibly become somewhat boastful and arrogant and appearing almost equally superior as God, and quite possible think of God as inferior,if God could be figuerd out through human reason and scientific proof ,that's not a God I want to follow after. If I was able to comprehend his every step ,his purposes etc.I would do what satan did, try to over power and outthink him,that is not without possibility
I would tend to think pretty highly of myself and pretty much bring God down to man's level, which is the intent of many humanistic philosophies.
We don't have to look to far to see that evidenced in man when they discover some new archaeological find or some amazing discovery, they feel,as our western society already is, very proud and somewhat superior.
That was the way it was at the tower of Babel, I mean GOD did give man intelligence that apparently seems very superior to any other creature ,as he was made in God's image,but from the fall of man, man became somewhat tainted in his view of himself and his actions,pictured in the pride and arrogance that exists in man.

 

[Darkness]

Think about man for a minute,if they could find him, explain him,define him, by wisdom and intellect ,would you think that man may possibly become somewhat boastful and arrogant and appearing almost equally superior as God, and quite possible think of God as inferior,if God could be figuerd out through human reason and scientific proof ,that's not a God I want to follow after. If I was able to comprehend his every step ,his purposes etc.I would do what satan did, try to over power and outthink him,that is not without possibility
I would tend to think pretty highly of myself and pretty much bring God down to man's level, which is the intent of many humanistic philosophies.
We don't have to look to far to see that evidenced in man when they discover some new archaeological find or some amazing discovery, they feel,as our western society already is, very proud and somewhat superior.
That was the way it was at the tower of Babel, I mean GOD did give man intelligence that apparently seems very superior to any other creature ,as he was made in God's image,but from the fall of man, man became somewhat tainted in his view of himself and his actions,pictured in the pride and arrogance that exists in man.

Why is it that God wants creatures so far beneath Him? Is He afraid of intellectual equals?

I think that if God exists and is the creator of our Universe, that our whole life is like an embryonic state. I would think God is creating us to one day be full Gods. We are His children are we not? And all Children must, one day, grow up.

 

[roli]

Why is it that God wants creatures so far beneath Him? Is He afraid of intellectual equals?

Ah!! you hit on something that is God's whole heart felt desire and that is that we be conformed into the image in which he created us to be.
Listen to what Jesus says here,he wants to take from what is his and reveal it to us
Jhn 16:55 " if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [fn3] will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Jesus wants to declare things that the father showed him and show us

He wants to reveal himself to us
Mat 11:27"My Father has given me authority over everything. No one really knows the Son except the Father, and no one really knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."


These verse ,jesus praying to the father saying how equal we will be ,not as in power and title ,but one in the spirit,Christ in us, we in him and we all in the father.
Jhn 17:20"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [fn5] will believe in Me through their word;21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.


This is the most exciting verse I know, John speaking to the Christian brothers ,when we step from this life ,we will see him and be like him, again, not as if we are the Christ ,but the redeemed, we will be like him in his body and character and nature.
i don't know what that means fully ,but I like the sounds of it ,I think it means we will have gloified bodies as he now has and that we will be able to do the things he does.
Whatever that means fully ,I will know someday
1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I think that if God exists and is the creator of our Universe, that our whole life is like an embryonic state. I would think God is creating us to one day be full Gods. We are His children are we not? And all Children must, one day, grow up

Well ,we may be a little god like in some ways, that is those who have trusted Christ,again not everyone who says they are Christian or follow after God, via another way other than Jesus will be accepted into heaven.
At least that is what the bible teaches
We are not all his children , he speaks of those who come to Christ in ways such as adoption, heirs and co - heirs with Jesus ,but he is speaking only to those who receive and believe his gospel and are born again
Eph 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Gal 3:29And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

One has to be born in to the family of God by his Holy Spirit
Jhn 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jhn 1:12 but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The seed is the spirit of Christ ,the Holy Spirit births eternal life into the believer
1Pe 1:23 — Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


This speaks of the day ,when we the believers will be caught up with the lord, this chapter must be read in it's entirity.
These verse are talking about when we shall be made like Christ in heavenly glorified bodies ,some may knock it,deny it,refute it,but we shall live it ,woooohoooo!!
What a day that will be ,when his face we shall see and this world is no more , we shall live for eternity.
Sorry ,i am just excited about that day , but this is when we shall be like him ,that is those who know him ,not know of him ,know about him ,but know him, big difference
1Cr 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[roli]

Do you really believe that your God can not, or would not "answer" the prayers of His most faithful adherents in manifesting a truly compelling miracle as the one suggested in my OP? Do you believe that your God is "done" in manifesting any further "miracles" (or divine interventions) in our own lifetimes?
If not...then what's wrong with the "miracle" I propose--that adherents might pray to possibly convert millions (if not billions) of unbelievers in one fell swoop. I dare say that today's "prophets" just aren't getting their "commissioned" job done...

Well, I would tend to think if God wanted to convert everyone in one mass gathering, he would have done that in the beginning, he would have avoided the sacrifice of His own Son and the untold hours of teaching his disciples to go out and win the lost. But there is something in the fact that he wanted the message to go out the way it did and not through some supernatural cosmic miracle ,but through believing the miracle of His son rising from the dead.But that was'nt enough
Jesus was asked that question ,
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
What was the sign ,that Jonah was swalllowed and was 3 days in the fish,so the Son of man will be 3 days in the earth ,if they don't beleive that sign they won't believe any
Why would Jesus say such a thing and not prove himself that he had come from the father,by performing one simple miracle, a miracle, I mean if he was so loving and merciful, is it not odd he said what he said......
or is it because he knew the evil and adulterous notions of their hearts and that even a miraculous sign would'nt convince those wicked people of the son of God.
He was confronted with this his whole life and told his disciples to brush the dust from their shoes when they leave that town and said it will more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for them on that day

 

[s2a]

Hiya SuperUniverse,

You said:

Evasion? You should know...

Wow. Good comeback, Potsie...

You never suggested the cosmo's was meant for you? You're human. Everything is about you or should be about you.

My apologies and sympathies. It would seem that you are left with nothing but impotent projections and personal assumptions in your paltry bag of argumentation. Sorry to discomfit you that I don't fit within your pre-defined set of practiced obtuse replies. Skeptics are human...and don't believe that the cosmos revolves about them. Really. Your self-denials or counter-projections in the face of such perspectives remain impotent and, kinda sad...

You asked a question about why the universe is not all about humans and I provided guidance to finding that answer. If you don't like it, tough.

Good. Let's revisit (again) that exchange, shall we?

I said:
I'd like to hear your answer to your own posed question here. If the universe isn't "all about humans", then what is the universe about...exactly, specifically?

Does the universe (or cosmos) serve any relevant function or estimable "purpose" regarding the human condition as a whole?

If the universe (cosmos) is NOT relevant to human existence, then why does any planet star, or gallaxy (besides our own)_even exist? Why do stars continue to be formed within the "Horsehead Nebulae", despite the fact that it is trillions of miles distant from us? What "purpose" is served in/by humans witnessing an ever-unfolding "creation" of the cosmos?

Your "guidance" in answer was...

You'd like to hear my answer to the question "What makes you think the universe is all about humans?" Maybe you would but I'm tired of giving you so many things and you never working/thinking and you never figuring/learning anything on your own. But I will give you this:

If light speed truly is the speed limit of the universe and the universe is expanding and at least 13.5 billion light years across already then a majority of the universe is unreachable in any human lifetime. Isn't that evidence that it's not all meant for you?

Maybe start finding answers on your own for once? But... you can't do it, can you? That's why you ask questions and reply with anger when someone explains something to you. You've never been able to figure out any of this stuff on your own.

Exactly. I DO accept the premise that the cosmos IS 13.5 Billion light years "wide". IF I DO ACCEPT THAT PREMISE, then WHY would I, as a skeptic, therefore PRESUME (or claim) that the "universe is all about humans"? I DON'T. I NEVER HAVE. If you like, I have "found the answer" (on my little own self).

Now what? What are you arguing for or against on my behalf?

Can you see the blueprint? Yeah right. You couldn't comprehend the legend but I will offer you this, come up with a theory for the source of gravity, if you are close I'll give you more information.

Are you serious? Must I now inundate you with the tens of thousands of available online sources and references that validate the most compelling and evidenced popular theories of gravity...merely to satisfy your doubts in regards to my comprehension/acceptance of those prevailing theories? To what satisfactory end? Could we narrow these down to say, one hundred? I might be willing to satisfy (and flood) this thread with at least 100 varied referenced sources.

Do thrice married women have to share the same bedroom with their ex-husbands? As beings ascend they develop great confidence in themselves and do not depend on relationships with others for comfort.

I suppose this is a "fact" that you "know"? Or is this an article of faith that you "believe", as recorded in some historical/popularized/textual works?

This does not mean they do not have relationships but no one owns another as in human marriage.

I have never even pondered or presumed for one instant that I "owned" my only wife in 18 years of marriage. Only an arrogantly presumptive *** would believe such a wish be made true.

They might end a relationship by simply saying "I have been very satisfied with you but now I would like my independance" and that would be it. No divorce, no arguing, and no lawyers. In the very high dimensions individuals have learned an advanced understanding of God and essentially seek to further their relationship with Him.

Yawn. I seem to recall an SNL skit that proposed the directed dispensation of dog poop upon the shoes of an ex-lover (along with reciting aloud three times..."I break with thee") as proper and countenanced severance of a relationship. Again, "God" played no part in such a ceremony.

"If" you ascend? That's the most truthful question you've ever asked, emphasis on "if".

D'oh.

You're just becoming more tiresome by the moment. In this case, I allow you a conditionally assumptive premise (for the sake of argument alone), and you assume that I reveal a "truthful" inquiry...as if I were achingly "searching" for some revelatory "answer" to assuage all of my lingering doubts...

Four million years to ascend from the earth? What's four million years to the universe?
You're slowing down traffic so try to stay out of the fast lane but you'll still get there eventually.

I'm reminded by the bumper sticker that says, "I may be slow...but I'm ahead of you".


----------------------------

Special pleading? Sigh, mind your own. No really...

I invite any seasoned critic of logic to chime in...really.

Equivocation? No.

Yep.
No rebuttal?
You lose.

Explain blind faith? No.

Chicken.
*bauck* *bauck*
Chicken.

You'd like to hear my answer to the question "What makes you think the universe is all about humans?" Maybe you would but I'm tired of giving you so many things and you never working/thinking and you never figuring/learning anything on your own.

Yes, I would like to hear your answer...because I don't believe you have one to offer (with any provided substantiation or foundation). Call me a skeptic...

Unfortunate that your all-too-ready (and convenient) fatigue sets in so soon; and that your innate knowledge...you know...that which YOU KNOW...should remain such a secret.

But I will give you this:

Woo Hoo! A GIFT from the ONE who KNOWS!

If light speed truly is the speed limit of the universe and the universe is expanding and at least 13.5 billion light years across already then a majority of the universe is unreachable in any human lifetime. Isn't that evidence that it's not all meant for you?

Again, you present but a lackadaisical Strawman of your own construct. I have never asserted anything, even remotely, that suggests that the "universe" is "interested" in my existence.
NOT ONCE.
EVER.

Also, why did you not know this? Why aren't you giving these things due thought? Why is it that you must be given everything?

Setting your impotently failing Strawman aside for the moment, I would note that I insist upon nothing. I make no demands of/for any "special revelation", or divinely-lent secret decoder ring knowledge. I only asked you to share what "YOU KNOW". If what "You Know" is a secret...available only to those that share some secret handshake, and only shared with exclusive members of your club...that's fine with me. Just so you know...I will be then compelled to withhold the secret handshake (and spirited dance number) that all skeptics practice at their own congregational meetings.

You really think God is, or should be, in a hurry. He's not. Maybe try to relax and put your feet up and just appreciate what you have? All the really hard work is done for you.

Again you project your set beliefs upon me as (being) somehow reflective of my own. I DON'T think about your God, and I DON'T try to appease or assuage His alleged motives. I DON'T. I no more lie awake at night reflecting upon the consequences of unbelief in Zeus, or Neptune, or Xochiquetzal, or the Anunnaki...than I might in some enhanced righteous fear of your god.

My atheistic recliner fits me just fine.

Some knowledge is designed to be confounding and lead humans astray? This information comes from disreputable sources, what you call "demons"...

I DO?

I attribute/ascribe reasonable doubts to "demons"?

Provide direct quotes/citations...if you please...or retract such unfounded assignations/claims as utterly false.

...even though they are not truly agents of the devil but simply ascended beings in service to themselves who do not obey the rule of non-interference.

"The rule of non-interference"?
Really?
Where might one read more about this rule? Please cite a source, or two.

There is a divine plan for mankind. It is the same plan for all beings. Ascension, but take your time, it's not a race.

Cool.

Again, where is the "blueprint", the outline, the rough draft of this "divine plan"?
Is it recorded in print for any/all to read? Is there ANY "official" source that details this "PLAN" of your God?
Or is this "knowledge" a secret too?

 

[s2a]

Pssst.

SuperUniverse.

You have yet to even address the initial premise of this thread.

Care to go there...just for fun?

 

[s2a]

Hello roli,

When I asked:
Do you really believe that your God can not, or would not "answer" the prayers of His most faithful adherents in manifesting a truly compelling miracle as the one suggested in my OP? Do you believe that your God is "done" in manifesting any further "miracles" (or divine interventions) in our own lifetimes?
If not...then what's wrong with the "miracle" I propose--that adherents might pray to possibly convert millions (if not billions) of unbelievers in one fell swoop. I dare say that today's "prophets" just aren't getting their "commissioned" job done..

You said:.

Well, I would tend to think if God wanted to convert everyone in one mass gathering, he would have done that in the beginning, he would have avoided the sacrifice of His own Son and the untold hours of teaching his disciples to go out and win the lost.

But there is something in the fact that he wanted the message to go out the way it did and not through some supernatural cosmic miracle ,but through believing the miracle of His son rising from the dead.But that was'nt enough

Agreed. But it's difficult to deny that less than one-third of all of humanity existent today "accepts" that claim as "truth"? Not a very efficient means of effecting/administering His "Message/Will", is it?
Is there anything "wrong" in praying for another "delivering" miracle?

You said:

Jesus was asked that question ,
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
What was the sign ,that Jonah was swalllowed and was 3 days in the fish,so the Son of man will be 3 days in the earth ,if they don't beleive that sign they won't believe any
Why would Jesus say such a thing and not prove himself that he had come from the father,by performing one simple miracle, a miracle, I mean if he was so loving and merciful, is it not odd he said what he said......
or is it because he knew the evil and adulterous notions of their hearts and that even a miraculous sign would'nt convince those wicked people of the son of God.
He was confronted with this his whole life and told his disciples to brush the dust from their shoes when they leave that town and said it will more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for them on that day

I dunno, you tell me.

Did Jesus perform any "miracles" after sharing that thought?

If so, to what end?

Did Jesus suggest that His followers might exact/impart "miracles" upon those that yet did not believe?

Do "miracles" happen today?

If so, why so (if ultimately futile in their exhibition)?

If not, why not (despite the ongoing adherent claims that "miracles" happen all the time)?

Why would Jesus purposefully resurrect Lazarus from death? For what purpose? To what end cause? To reinforce faith, or to test faith?

If medical science can not "explain" a "healing miracle" (of blindness, cancer, or homosexuality), is this evidence of HIs intervention, or not?

If "miracles happen" today, what purpose do they serve?

To validate adherent faith?
To test adherent faith?
To (perhaps) convert unbelievers to faithful adherence?

Any of the above?
All of the above?
None of the above?

You tell me.

 

[s2a]

Geez...we inexorably approach the three month anniversary of non-reply on the parts of roli and SuperUniverse...

...I guess I win the argument.

Whee!

 

[lew0049]

Geez...we inexorably approach the three month anniversary of non-reply on the parts of roli and SuperUniverse...

...I guess I win the argument.

Whee!

Winning an argument implies that you presented evidence that is conclusive and you did not. Asking the question "why" does not entail that you "won" anything. As for the posts that I previously made on this thread, I believe that I came to a conclusion that you really weren't searching for an answer but merely a rebutable.

I have not read the previous posts but if you will restate your question, I will attempt to give you a response, but I will tell you that unless you believe of the slight possibility of their being a god then any answer I give will not suffice - to know all of the answers to "why" would mean that I am on an equal level with god, and I know that I am not. To your responses that ask 'why', I wonder have you considered "why not?"

 

[s2a]

Well hello lew0049,

You said:

"Winning an argument implies that you presented evidence that is conclusive and you did not."

I find your provided definition, lacking...

Asking the question "why" does not entail that you "won" anything.

Indeed.

As for the posts that I previously made on this thread, I believe that I came to a conclusion that you really weren't searching for an answer but merely a rebutable.

Ahh, your contributions as enumerated within posts #148-150 remain a part of the virtual electronic record, but my "motivations" are not at issue, nor relevant to the inquiries set forth.

You are invited to read and rebut the responses I tendered immediately following your "rebuttals" (in their due chronological order).

I have not read the previous posts but if you will restate your question, I will attempt to give you a response,...

How generous of you, and unnecessarily incumbent upon me.

Re-read post #1. The cohenerently posed inquiry requires no clarifications or elucidations of any kind.

I will not modify the initial question (What's wrong with that?") simply to mollify/accommodate your inability to lend your earnest, informed, and honest reply.

...but I will tell you that unless you believe of the slight possibility of their being a god then any answer I give will not suffice - to know all of the answers to "why" would mean that I am on an equal level with god, and I know that I am not.

Then...I guess you're screwed. You are insufficient to the task laid before you. So be it.

To your responses that ask 'why', I wonder have you considered "why not?"

I did not ask..."Why"?

I only invited direct and substantiated reply to my inquiry that followed my introduced premise in post #1....

..."What's wrong with that?"

If you can't provide answer to that simple inquiry, I win by default...because I say so...;-)

I can illustrate the impotence/absence of any claimed deity at the drop of a hat. I have provided a mechanism of faith-based opportunity to beseech such a deity to reveal itself in an undeniable and rationally compelling manner. Believers that subscribe/preach notions of attendant "salvation/redemption" as beneficent byproduct of piously accepted claims/devotions...might hope that unbelievers would be "converted" by the "miracle" I have proposed in post #1.

It's a simple (albeit, open-ended) question, really...

..."What's wrong with that"?

If you can't answer/explain/detail the failings of such an inquiry, then my fair inquiry remains...and "I win".

What ya got?

 

[s2a]

Again....I "win"....in "lew" of any presented counter-arguments (yes...pun very much intended) ;-)

 

[DarkSun]

The thread creator uses parenthesis far too much. It's annoying me more than much else.

 

[Anti-World]

Gary E. Schwartz PhD has a nice quote that fits very well into this proposal ("[Have god do something cool so that I can believe in 'im]"). The quote is: "You can't have the universe."

If there is a god, he has created it the way he felt like creating it with an outcome that will be in his favor. There is absolutely no reason that he would have to suddenly alter the entire universe simply to get the believers that wouldn't accept him with the evidence that he, must have, already given (And, I might add, he must of thought that it was enough.)

It is also completely rediculous for you to ask god (Alias: universe) to prove that he exists in the universe. That's like being miniaturized to the size of an atom, placed on my shoe, and then you asking me to prove to you that I exist. Would you be able to feel me moving? Would you be able to hear me? Would I make sense to you?

So maybe the best way for a god to prove that he existed would be to send someone your size down to you to tell you all about him. (OMFG! That supposably *did* happen! But now you we want proof that Jesus was God and that Jesus actually existed)

You see, you're trying to be bigger than god. "[Do this or I'm going to ignore you]" isn't exactly the best way to go about living ones life. Or maybe it is.

Nonetheless, if there *is* a god and he *does* want people to believe in him then we must logically assume that there is enough evidence out there to do so. If this is just a strange assertion, than I have no argument.

Meh.

 

[s2a]

Gary E. Schwartz PhD has a nice quote that fits very well into this proposal ("[Have god do something cool so that I can believe in 'im]"). The quote is: "You can't have the universe."

If there is a god, he has created it the way he felt like creating it with an outcome that will be in his favor. There is absolutely no reason that he would have to suddenly alter the entire universe simply to get the believers that wouldn't accept him with the evidence that he, must have, already given (And, I might add, he must of thought that it was enough.)

It is also completely rediculous for you to ask god (Alias: universe) to prove that he exists in the universe. That's like being miniaturized to the size of an atom, placed on my shoe, and then you asking me to prove to you that I exist. Would you be able to feel me moving? Would you be able to hear me? Would I make sense to you?

So maybe the best way for a god to prove that he existed would be to send someone your size down to you to tell you all about him. (OMFG! That supposably *did* happen! But now you we want proof that Jesus was God and that Jesus actually existed)

You see, you're trying to be bigger than god. "[Do this or I'm going to ignore you]" isn't exactly the best way to go about living ones life. Or maybe it is.

Nonetheless, if there *is* a god and he *does* want people to believe in him then we must logically assume that there is enough evidence out there to do so. If this is just a strange assertion, than I have no argument.

Meh.

Obviously, you either did not read, or did not fully comprehend, the OP of this thread.

For the umteenth time...I make no demands nor requests of anyone's god, deity, supreme force/intelligence/consciousness, etc.

NONE.

I have submitted what I would require to "believe" in ANY religious/faith-based claimed god/entity. I proposed that adherent "believers" of that "god/thing" pray/entreat/request of that god...to deliver/produce a message; a demonstration; a "miracle"...that would almost certainly produce millions (if not billions) of "converts" (in particular, me) to rapt and obedient adherence and worship (if required), and an abiding and unquestioning belief of a veritable "god".

Is it "wrong" for believers to hope for such a "miracle", as I have proposed?

Again, the question is simple and straight-forward.

"What's wrong with that?"

You STILL either can't, or won't answer that simple question.