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How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Obviously, you either did not read, or did not fully comprehend, the OP of this thread.

For the umteenth time...I make no demands nor requests of anyone's god, deity, supreme force/intelligence/consciousness, etc.

NONE.

I have submitted what I would require to "believe" in ANY religious/faith-based claimed god/entity. I proposed that adherent "believers" of that "god/thing" pray/entreat/request of that god...to deliver/produce a message; a demonstration; a "miracle"...that would almost certainly produce millions (if not billions) of "converts" (in particular, me) to rapt and obedient adherence and worship (if required), and an abiding and unquestioning belief of a veritable "god".

Is it "wrong" for believers to hope for such a "miracle", as I have proposed?

Again, the question is simple and straight-forward.

"What's wrong with that?"

You STILL either can't, or won't answer that simple question.

I would pray for that but I don't believe God wants millions of people to be "converted" in that manner. It's not about the quntity of believers but about the quality. Certainly God is capable of doing such a thing but the fact that He doesn't tells me that it's not part of His plan. That and scriptures. So if any other religious person wants to take up your challenge that's fine but the God I believe in doesn't need millions of faithless converts.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
I would pray for that but I don't believe God wants millions of people to be "converted" in that manner.

OK. What does Scripture suggest is the manner of conversion most suitable?

It's not about the quntity of believers but about the quality.
OK. Scriptural references as support of this conclusion/assertion, if you please.

Certainly God is capable of doing such a thing but the fact that He doesn't tells me that it's not part of His plan. That and scriptures.
Have you actually read Post #1?

Have you read the inquiries I posed for reply in Post #5?

[Only if you DO read the link as provided above...I then invite your reply...]

Do "miracles" happen, or not?
If so, for what purpose(s)?
If not, then why do so many "believe" and cite examples of "miracles" on a virtually daily basis?

So if any other religious person wants to take up your challenge that's fine but the God I believe in doesn't need millions of faithless converts.
He doesn't?

Is redemption only provided to those that can pass a piety test?

Is salvation reserved only for the faithful, and no one else?

Is penitence alone insufficient to receive God's mercy?

You tell me...
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
OK. What does Scripture suggest is the manner of conversion most suitable?

OK. Scriptural references as support of this conclusion/assertion, if you please.

no problem. I'll get some for you in a bit.
Have you actually read Post #1?

This is the thread about God moving the stars to form messages in all modern languages confirming His existance isn't it?

Have you read the inquiries I posed for reply in Post #5?

[Only if you DO read the link as provided above...I then invite your reply...]
I don't remember. I'll go back and read it.

Do "miracles" happen, or not?
If so, for what purpose(s)?
If not, then why do so many "believe" and cite examples of "miracles" on a virtually daily basis?

Yes, I believe miracles happen. But I believe they are A) How God works normally through the Priesthood. B) For the confirmation of faith not the aquisition of it.

He doesn't?

Is redemption only provided to those that can pass a piety test?

It is for all those who:
1. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. Repent of sins.
3. Baptized by immersion for the remission of sins by someone with the proper authority.
4. Recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands by those who have the proper authority.
5. Obey the commandments to the best of ones ability.

Is salvation reserved only for the faithful, and no one else?

It depends. If by salvation you mean go to Heaven then it goes to almost everyone regardless of their religion. If you mean make it to the Celestial Kingdom and live with God then it is reserved to those who meet the requirements I listed above.

Is penitence alone insufficient to receive God's mercy?

You tell me...

See above.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
hopefully I adressed the main points of post 5.

Actually, that's NOT the basic premise I presented. Note when I said in Point 1:
"1) God (meaning to represent any divine entity in question) "speaks" to a group of His followers/adherents (after they prayerfully beseech Him to "reveal Himself to unbelievers), commanding them to preach of an upcoming "miracle" and message in the sky from God Himself (this would provide the basis of a prophecy to be borne out as true). Such a caveat is *optional*. Either the miracle can be "foretold", or manifest itself as a complete "surprise" (it's just that "fulfilled" prophecy seems to hold more sway and cognitive superficial influence than "unannounced" miracles."<
See? I make no request of your God, nor do I demand that He "prove" (reveal) Himself to me, or to anyone else (even the idea of a prophetically foretold "miracle" is left as optional).


If the miracle doesn't have a purpose then why should it be done?

The established premise/proposal simply suggests that *believers* pray (ask, beseech, etc.) for God to do so, for the especial benefit of unbelievers with "hardened hearts"; or for those of firmly convicted alternate beliefs (that should cover a few billion stray/heretical souls).

Actualy as a missionary I would pray that God would help the people, we were teaching, to know the truth of the Gospel.

Bear in mind, I retain no "belief" in your God, nor in any divine entity or supernatural force or cause/effect. In essence, I have no one to "ask" (demand) from which such a proposed miracle is to be delivered (with the literally thousands of worldwide religious/spiritual beliefs/myths/superstitions, I wouldn't even know where to begin). This is why my proposed miracle is presented instead to the adherent faithful, since *they* believe that they at least have God's "ear", if not (necesarily) His guaranteed favor.

So you want to see a miracle happen so you can believe?

It is, after all, the earthbound believers that are charged with evangelizing and proselytizing their beliefs in their religion to: the uninitiated; the "wayward" (heretics, infidels, practicers of other beliefs); and the inherently skeptical doubters that don't (or have yet to) accept claims of supernatural cause/effect.

That's why we have missionaries and not 'miracle prayers' or whatever thet would be called.:p

What's wrong with that?" section

Nothings wrong with it it's just not the best way. but similar things have happened in the past. I'll get some references later.


Perhaps. Remind me about Leviticus and Deuteronomy again, just for those that can't seem to "follow the rules".

I don't believe the Law of Moses applies to us. I believe we live under the Law of the Gospel.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
HI Sola'lor,

You said:
If the miracle doesn't have a purpose then why should it be done?
Who knows? Perhaps you could explain just what "purposes" miracles serve? If "miracles" happen...then why do they happen? Are there any Scriptural foundations in C&V that might lend substantive insight in answer? I can think of a few...

You quoted (my words):
The established premise/proposal simply suggests that *believers* pray (ask, beseech, etc.) for God to do so, for the especial benefit of unbelievers with "hardened hearts"; or for those of firmly convicted alternate beliefs (that should cover a few billion stray/heretical souls).

You replied:
Actualy as a missionary I would pray that God would help the people, we were teaching, to know the truth of the Gospel.
OK. Are there particular constraints or outlined parameters that define how "the people" might come to know that Truth? Is witness to miracle disallowed as instruction to that end? If so, where in Scripture shall we look for support of such a claim/belief?

You quoted me:
Bear in mind, I retain no "belief" in your God, nor in any divine entity or supernatural force or cause/effect. In essence, I have no one to "ask" (demand) from which such a proposed miracle is to be delivered (with the literally thousands of worldwide religious/spiritual beliefs/myths/superstitions, I wouldn't even know where to begin). This is why my proposed miracle is presented instead to the adherent faithful, since *they* believe that they at least have God's "ear", if not (necesarily) His guaranteed favor.

You then asked:
So you want to see a miracle happen so you can believe?
I have no faith. Is that therefore too much to expect?

If so...what's then the "down side" for either believers, or your god? If the miracle I propose is fulfilled, and millions or billions of faithfully adherent, penitent, and repentant believers are the beneficent result, then...what's wrong with that? What is the prospective loss to either your god or His present worshippers in this possible outcome? What?

That's why we have missionaries and not 'miracle prayers' or whatever thet would be called.
I know. How's that working out for you?
Approximately one in three humans on this planet consider themselves as "Christian" today...and that percentage remains in sustained evidential decline. Either there's a "problem" with the "Message" itself, or within the "missioned" purveyors of that message. Maybe your Boss needs to fire His outside salespeople, or He needs to step up and offer a proposal/miracle that only the insane would refute as "truth".

In reference to my...
What's wrong with that?" section
You boldly offer:
Nothings wrong with it it's just not the best way. but similar things have happened in the past. I'll get some references later.
Cool. I acknowledge your concession, and await your referenced rebuttal. ;-)

I said:
Perhaps. Remind me about Leviticus and Deuteronomy again, just for those that can't seem to "follow the rules".

You said:
I don't believe the Law of Moses applies to us. I believe we live under the Law of the Gospel.
How convenient for you. Where shall I look within the Gospels to read this especial exception that you claim for yourself (and other like-minded adherents)?

[PS. Why the self-identified ascription of "SJCBHA" as your "religion"?

As you said, here:
"SJCBHA is for ang Simbahan ni Jesu Cristo ng mga Banal sa mga Huling Araw. It's Tagalog(Filipino) for The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints
"

Why not self-identify as an LDS adherent? Is the Filipino-speaking LDS church fundamentally different from the Anglo-speaking sect in any significant way?

I could say "I am an atheist" in Dutch; "Ik ben een atheïst"
I could say "I am an atheist" in Russian: "&#1071; &#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1080;&#1089;&#1090;"
I could say "I am an atheist" in Italian; "Sono un ateo".
I could say "I am an atheist" in French; "Je suis un athée"
I could say "I am an atheist" in Japanese; "&#31169;&#12399;&#28961;&#31070;&#35542;&#32773;"

Would it be more revealing or direct to self-identify as "IBEA", "&#1071;a", "SUA", "JSUA", or some other obtuse form/manner, within this english-speaking forum? Does nationalism or native tongue have any relevance to any abiding "truth" or self-ascribed perspective?
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Geez Sola'lor,

You've managed at least 47 other replies to other posts in the past 4 days in other threads...

...if I were the fragile sort, I might think my feelings injured by your distracted attentions spent elsewhere...or....not.

You offered provision of direct Scriptural references in support of your claims...even blithely and simply enough as likely tendering "no problem" in your apt rebuttals...

My three Biblical concordances and seven different translations of remain open and ready for your referenced citations and specified substantiations...

I dunno...maybe 50 is some magic number?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Geez Sola'lor,

You've managed at least 47 other replies to other posts in the past 4 days in other threads...

...if I were the fragile sort, I might think my feelings injured by your distracted attentions spent elsewhere...or....not.

You offered provision of direct Scriptural references in support of your claims...even blithely and simply enough as likely tendering "no problem" in your apt rebuttals...

My three Biblical concordances and seven different translations of remain open and ready for your referenced citations and specified substantiations...

I dunno...maybe 50 is some magic number?

Sorry. I got a little distracted. I haven't forgotten you. I'll get them tonight. :)
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Ok here we go. Here's some scriptures that tells of a similar situation as to the one you are describing.

Sameual the Lamanite gave some prophecies about signs in the Heavens and on the earth in relation to CHrist's birth and death. You can read them here:

Helaman 14:3-9
3 And behold, this will I give unto you for a sign at the time of his coming; for behold, there shall be great lights in heaven, insomuch that in the night before he cometh there shall be no darkness, insomuch that it shall appear unto man as if it was day.
4 Therefore, there shall be one day and a night and a day, as if it were one day and there were no night; and this shall be unto you for a sign; for ye shall know of the rising of the sun and also of its setting; therefore they shall know of a surety that there shall be two days and a night; nevertheless the night shall not be darkened; and it shall be the night before he is born.
5 And behold, there shall a new star arise, such an one as ye never have beheld; and this also shall be a sign unto you.
6 And behold this is not all, there shall be many signs and wonders in heaven.
7 And it shall come to pass that ye shall all be amazed, and wonder, insomuch that ye shall fall to the earth.
8 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall believe on the Son of God, the same shall have everlasting life.
9 And behold, thus hath the Lord commanded me, by his angel, that I should come and tell this thing unto you; yea, he hath commanded that I should prophesy these things unto you; yea, he hath said unto me: Cry unto this people, repent and prepare the way of the Lord.

2 Nephi 1:4-26
4 And it came to pass that in the commencement of the ninety and second year, behold, the prophecies of the prophets began to be fulfilled more fully; for there began to be greater signs and greater miracles wrought among the people.

Many of the prophecies were being fulfilled during this time.

5 But there were some who began to say that the time was past for the words to be fulfilled, which were spoken by Samuel, the Lamanite.

See above for the prophecies.

6 And they began to rejoice over their brethren, saying: Behold the time is past, and the words of Samuel are not fulfilled; therefore, your joy and your faith concerning this thing hath been vain.

The people were rejoicing because Samuel the Lamanites prophecies were not being fulfilled. They told the believers that their faith was in vain becaus ethe prophecies would not be fulfilled.

7 And it came to pass that they did make a great uproar throughout the land; and the people who believed began to be very sorrowful, lest by any means those things which had been spoken might not come to pass.

Basically the non-believers were being boisterous about trhe fact that the believers' beliefs were false. The believers were worried that maybe the signs wouldn't happen, becuase of what the non-believers were saying.

8 But behold, they did watch steadfastly for that day and that night and that day which should be as one day as if there were no night, that they might know that their faith had not been vain.
9 Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death except the sign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet.

The non-believers said that if the signs didn't happen by a certain day they would kill all the believers.

10 Now it came to pass that when Nephi, the son of Nephi, saw this wickedness of his people, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful.
11 And it came to pass that he went out and bowed himself down upon the earth, and cried mightily to his God in behalf of his people, yea, those who were about to be destroyed because of their faith in the tradition of their fathers.
12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying:
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.
14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son&#8212;of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.

The prophet Nephi prayed and the Lord told him that the signs would happen.

15 And it came to pass that the words which came unto Nephi were fulfilled, according as they had been spoken; for behold, at the going down of the sun there was no darkness; and the people began to be astonished because there was no darkness when the night came.

The sun goes down and there is no darkness just as Samuel the Lamanite had prophecied.

16 And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who fell to the earth and became as if they were dead, for they knew that the great plan of destruction which they had laid for those who believed in the words of the prophets had been frustrated; for the sign which had been given was already at hand.
17 And they began to know that the Son of God must shortly appear; yea, in fine, all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished that they fell to the earth.

The non-believers were horified that the signs were happening and that they had planned to kill the non-believers. They also know that because the signs happened that Samuel the Lamanites words were true and Christ would come.

18 For they knew that the prophets had testified of these things for many years, and that the sign which had been given was already at hand; and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief.
19 And it came to pass that there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.
20 And it had come to pass, yea, all things, every whit, according to the words of the prophets.
21 And it came to pass also that a new star did appear, according to the word.

Signs happen.

22 And it came to pass that from this time forth there began to be lyings sent forth among the people, by Satan, to harden their hearts, to the intent that they might not believe in those signs and wonders which they had seen; but notwithstanding these lyings and deceivings the more part of the people did believe, and were converted unto the Lord.

There were people lying about the signs and tried to convince people they were false. But for the most part people believed.

23 And it came to pass that Nephi went forth among the people, and also many others, baptizing unto repentance, in the which there was a great remission of sins. And thus the people began again to have peace in the land.
24 And there were no contentions, save it were a few that began to preach, endeavoring to prove by the scriptures that it was no more expedient to observe the law of Moses. Now in this thing they did err, having not understood the scriptures.
25 But it came to pass that they soon became converted, and were convinced of the error which they were in, for it was made known unto them that the law was not yet fulfilled, and that it must be fulfilled in every whit; yea, the word came unto them that it must be fulfilled; yea, that one jot or tittle should not pass away till it should all be fulfilled; therefore in this same year were they brought to a knowledge of their error and did confess their faults.
26 And thus the ninety and second year did pass away, bringing glad tidings unto the people because of the signs which did come to pass, according to the words of the prophecy of all the holy prophets.

There's one case. It did convince many non-believers. Was it bad that they were convinced by a sign? No. But the people didn't pray to God to have a certain sign happen just to convince the non-believers. The sign was a natural happening connected with Christ's birth. It's form wasn't dictated by the will of people. It's purpose was not to convince non-believers.

I'm going to post some more so if you comment on this I won't get back to it until I'm done posting the others.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Here's another of Samuel the Lamanites prophecies. It concerns the death of Christ.

Helaman 14:20-28
20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.

21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.

23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.

24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate.

25 And many graves shall be opened, and shall yield up many of their dead; and many saints shall appear unto many.

26 And behold, thus hath the angel spoken unto me; for he said unto me that there should be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours.

27 And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days.

28 And the angel said unto me that many shall see greater things than these, to the intent that they might believe that these signs and these wonders should come to pass upon all the face of this land, to the intent that there should be no cause for unbelief among the children of men—

The fulfillment of this prophecy is found in 3 Nephi 8. I'm not going to post the whole thing since it is the whole chapter. Chapoter 9 details the begining of Christ's visit amonth those people after the ressurrection.
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Here's another incident of a man who didn't believe in Christ and demanded a sign if he was to believe. Basically what happens is a man preaches there is no Christ and then encounters a prophet. The man says that if there is a Christ then He must be shown a sign. He wont believe unless he sees one. He tells the prophet to show him a sign. The prophet asks him why he would tempt God. But the prophet shows hima sign anyway and the man is made so he can't speak. The man writes a request for the sign to be taken from him. The prophet tells him if he did then he would just continue to preach against Christ. The man was later cast out and died.

Read the full story here: Alma 30

EDIT: There is another example similar to this in the Bible but I can't find it yet.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Here's another incident of a man who didn't believe in Christ and demanded a sign if he was to believe. Basically what happens is a man preaches there is no Christ and then encounters a prophet. The man says that if there is a Christ then He must be shown a sign. He wont believe unless he sees one. He tells the prophet to show him a sign. The prophet asks him why he would tempt God. But the prophet shows hima sign anyway and the man is made so he can't speak. The man writes a request for the sign to be taken from him. The prophet tells him if he did then he would just continue to preach against Christ. The man was later cast out and died.

Read the full story here: Alma 30

EDIT: There is another example similar to this in the Bible but I can't find it yet.

I appreciate your efforts in attempts to provide SCRIPTURAL support for your conclusions.

I promise my fair rebuttals and deconstructions of your lent references (and any aspects of applicability to the OP at hand) within the next 48 hours or so...
 

lew0049

CWebb
s2a: what does the word faith mean?

Dictionary definition -
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Biblical definition -
Hebrews 11:1-3
11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Throughout the Bible, there are numerous verses pertaining to the rewards for having faith, what faith does to a person, etc...
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If you want a miracle that would 100% prove that there is a God, the word faith would have no meaning. People talk about miracles all of the time, which dilutes what a miracle actually is. I've said it before and I will say it again, 100% proof of God would neglect mankind's free will.

It's like a man on trial for murder, yet if there is 100% (not 99%) proof to the jury that he committed cold-blooded murder, does the jury really have a choice to make? I'm assuming you will say that they do have a choice, but I don't believe they do.

We make choices all of the time and thats what we are given, the freedom to make choices without certain knowledge of the outcome. How boring would life be if we were 100% certain of the outcome in the decisions we make?
 
lew0049 -

Would 100% proof that the Abrahamic God exists really affect our free will significantly? We have, for all intents and purposes, 100% proof of lots of things, yet this does not prevent us from having free will.

Admittedly, life would be a bit more "boring" if we were 100% certain when and where the next tsunami or famine would strike, or which children would have fatal reactions to vaccines. Yet, scientists and governments seek certain answers to these questions, to the greatest degree possible. Apparently, most people are willing to put up with a bit more "boredom" to alleviate pain and suffering. Shouldn't we much prefer certainty when it comes to questions of God, where the capacity for pain and suffering (in Hell, or by holy strife in this life) is infinitely greater than the worst tsunami or vaccine reaction?
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
We make choices all of the time and thats what we are given, the freedom to make choices without certain knowledge of the outcome. How boring would life be if we were 100% certain of the outcome in the decisions we make?
Odd that your God doesn't want you to be 100% certain about him in any reasonable way for something whose consequences are eternal. Don't you think one's certainty should be in direct proportion to how important the issue is?
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
*bonk*

Whups...stubbed my toe again on this one... :)
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Yes. Rather than bringing back a thread from 2008 you would be better served starting a new thread on the same issue since it does not require people to read through 250 posts of largely repetitive content.. especially since any new posts are unlikely to contain much in the way of relevant novel content.

Edit: and now I run away... be back in a week or so lol
 
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