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How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let's go over one more piece of evidence this picture alone refutes the flood story, at least the version of our recalcitrant posters here believe in:

600px-2009-08-20-01800_USA_Utah_316_Goosenecks_SP.jpg


A link to a larger version:

Goosenecks State Park - Wikipedia

That particular formation could not have been made during the flood and there has not been enough time since the flood to form it.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You have not paid attention or you are not being honest. Why participate in a thread if you can't do both?


EDIT: @nPeace , in fact I recently answered a post of yours with quite clear evidence against the flood. Why did you not respond to that instead of making a claim full of incorrect claims and nonsense?

Do you not understand how the lack of a universal population bottleneck alone refutes the flood story.
I think you should have edited the first part as well, but with the truth.

I hear you talk about disproving the flood, based on geology, physics etc. If someone posted something on how physics could account for a global flood, you would probably say that they need to prove it scientifically.
If you had said, there is no way the ark could have floated, you would likely proudly boast about it.
I provided evidence from an experiment done by young scientists, and you say I haven't provided scientific evidence.

I think you have shown yourself clearly to all debaters for creation, who by now I am sure, realize who is the dishonest one. However, we still debate, because dishonesty doesn't stop the world from turning.

I made a post here, and I am not finished. You haven't responded to it, as far as I am concerned.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Each person can decide for themselves what they believe. I do not believe man can accurately measure events in the past - even though he tries his best.
So whereas some may accept that they got these dates right. I don't.
Sorry but you know the dates to be wrong, based on what background?
  • Are you a geologist or volcanologist?
  • Have you ever study stratigraphy?
  • Have you ever used dating method?
    • And if you have, what dating method would you used on rocks and minerals?
    • But if none of the 1st 3 bulletpointed questions were answered that you have the qualification and experiences, then what is your scientific sources, regarding to Ararat?
I did do a geology subject for a semester at university, and none of them were advanced enough that require me to study any dating method, because how old rocks or minerals were irrelevant to civil engineering course.

Stratigraphy, vulcanology, radiometric or other dating methods required far more advanced subject than 1st year geology. You would have to enrol in far more advanced courses to study these more specialised subjects. And very few students do.

If you haven’t studied vulcanology or stratigraphy, then how would you know they got the dates wrong?

If you don’t have the expertise, then at the very least you can do, is to cite some of your scientific sources from expert stratigraphists or volcanologists?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sorry but you know the dates to be wrong, based on what background?
  • Are you a geologist or volcanologist?
  • Have you ever study stratigraphy?
  • Have you ever used dating method?
    • And if you have, what dating method would you used on rocks and minerals?
    • But if none of the 1st 3 bulletpointed questions were answered that you have the qualification and experiences, then what is your scientific sources, regarding to Ararat?
I did do a geology subject for a semester at university, and none of them were advanced enough that require me to study any dating method, because how old rocks or minerals were irrelevant to civil engineering course.

Stratigraphy, vulcanology, radiometric or other dating methods required far more advanced subject than 1st year geology. You would have to enrol in far more advanced courses to study these more specialised subjects. And very few students do.

If you haven’t studied vulcanology or stratigraphy, then how would you know they got the dates wrong?

If you don’t have the expertise, then at the very least you can do, is to cite some of your scientific sources from expert stratigraphists or volcanologists?
I'm sorry. You probably misread what I said.
Nowhere did I say, I know the dates to be wrong.
I specifically said, ...whereas some may accept that they got these dates right. I don't.

You can read it over if you doubt me.
I say this based on what is evidently true.

Reality is a complicated place. All we have to guide us, from an empirical point of view, are the quantities we can measure and observe. Even at that, those quantities are only as good as the tools and equipment we use to make those observations and measurements. Distances and sizes are only as good as the measuring sticks you have access to; brightness measurements are only as good as your ability to count and quantify photons; even time itself is only known as well as the clock you have to measure its passage. No matter how good our measurements and observations are, there's a limit to how good they are.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, and evidence can be covered and hidden, or it may be in plain sight, but simply ignored or overlooked. True?

I just looked at three points in the article so far.

1. Building the Ark
Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [ Gen. 6:15]. Could an ark that size be made seaworthy?

Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes
Basic physics suggests that an ark carrying lots of animal cargo could float, but science doesn't support other facets of the biblical tale

Noah's Ark would have floated...even with 70,000 animals

The proportional dimensions of the ark are not far off from modern ocean vessels.
How the World's Largest Cruise Ship Floats

Genesis 6
14 . . .Make for yourself an ark from resinous wood. You will make compartments in the ark and cover it with tar inside and outside.
22 And Noah did according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.


2. Gathering the Animals
Could animals have all lived near Noah?

Why not? If earth's atmosphere was altered drastically after the flood, then one could logically conclude that all the animals lived in similar environmental conditions, but adapted to climate change. So penguins did not originally need to have been built for their current habitat.

This can be seen from the fact that the picture painted by Isaiah is quite different to what we know today.
Isaiah 11:7
Cows and bears will eat together.
Their young will lie down together.
Lions will eat straw like oxen.

God made the animals herbivores, and they were harmless to man.

How was the Ark loaded?

Bringing the animals to the ark would have been no problem for Noah, in the same way that killing the giant Goliath was no problem for a small shepherd boy with a sling and a stone. Many hands make light work, and God's hands are bigger than ours.:)
Genesis 2:19

3. Fitting the Animals Aboard

Not all animals needed to board the ark.
Australia is home to 2 species of crocodile, the freshwater crocodile (Crocodylus johnstoni), which is found nowhere else in the world, and the estuarine crocodile (Crocodylus porosus). Both species can live in fresh or salt water. ... Freshwater crocodiles also live in tidal reaches of some rivers.

Amphibians may be the most familiar animals that often live on land and in the water, but several other animals thrive in both domains as well, including crocodilians, turtles and even some fish.

Insects don't require much room.
The scriptures say Acts 17:26
I believe this is the case with every kind of animal - They reproduce according to their kind, but there is variety.

I don't see this a problem, and to suggest it is, is imo nothing more than suggesting simply that it didn't happen, without giving careful thought to other reasonable circumstances.
Also, what person would have a plan to fill a barn with all his produce, and then build the barn too small. I know the answer skeptics will give.:)

I'll continue the rest later. Have fun.
OK. Sit down, have a drink -- maybe a double -- and give this a chance. I'm going to link to Potty-Mouth again, but this time I've carefully reviewed the video and, while there's still a bit of snark, some scattered irreverence, and some questionable (even by me) hermenuetics, there is no potty-mouthism, and some good points are made.
This video deals with the animals on the arc:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think you should have edited the first part as well, but with the truth.

I hear you talk about disproving the flood, based on geology, physics etc. If someone posted something on how physics could account for a global flood, you would probably say that they need to prove it scientifically.
If you had said, there is no way the ark could have floated, you would likely proudly boast about it.
I provided evidence from an experiment done by young scientists, and you say I haven't provided scientific evidence.

Physics disproves the ark myth in several ways. For example no matter where the water came from, either from space or "the deeps" the results would have been the same, Noah and family would have cooked.

And what you posted was a strawman of an experiment. It was far from scientific. And yes, you presented no scientific evidence. You do not even understand the concept. Would you like to learn?

I think you have shown yourself clearly to all debaters for creation, who by now I am sure, realize who is the dishonest one. However, we still debate, because dishonesty doesn't stop the world from turning.

Just because you do not understand the scientific method not scientific evidence does not mean that I am dishonest, though I have yet to meet a creationist that understands either.

I made a post here, and I am not finished. You haven't responded to it, as far as I am concerned.

What post was that?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It's your thread. You're the one saying that you have proof the flood did not happen. I don't have to prove nothing, other than to show you why the reasoning you present is not proof.
Subduction Zone said scientific theory or testable hypothesis required scientific EVIDENCES to be true. He didn’t say PROOFS.

Proof and evidence are not the same things in science.

Proof is merely a logical or mathematical statement, like a mathematical equation or a formula, or even a constant. Proof only provide abstract logical solution.

Evidence, on the other hand, provide real-world solution, and you have to be able to observe or detect the evidence (detecting it required instrument or device), measure the evidence, quantify it, test it, or any combination of the above.

Regarding to observing and detecting, for instance, when people work with electricity and electronic, we cannot observe what electricity in wires, circuits, transistors, with our see with our eyes, hear with our ears, smell with our noses, though we could taste with our tongue or feel with touch (I highly don’t recommend the last two).

So how do we safely observe electricity. We used used devices, like the multimeters to measure the current, voltage, power, energy or resistance. Such a device can not only detect the presence of electricity, but safely measure it.

But getting back to proof and evidence.

The difference is, proof is only a statement on logic derived from human reasoning. But what if the person’s mathematical skills are not up to the task, and his equations are faulty or wrong?

Evidence on the other hand, are independent of human reasoning. When a person perform an experiment, then the result (evidence, not proof) will either back his claim or refute it.

Sometimes, the evidences will back up the proof (mathematical equations), but sometimes they don’t.

To give an example, Superstring Theory is not a “scientific theory” despite connotating the word “Theory” in its name. It is not a scientific theory, because it isn’t back up by testable scientific evidences. But Superstring Theory does have proofs, and these are in forms of complex equations.

Superstring Theory falls under the category of “theoretical” physics.

Other theoretical physics, like M-Theory (a subset of String Theory), Multiverse cosmology, etc, have proofs but no empirical evidences.

Theoretical science are actually in hypothetical phase in scientific model, it is a proposed solution that are currently untestable at this stage.

Theoretical physics rely on proofs, thus they relied on solving complex equations, but have no real world solution as in no empirical evidences.

Einstein’s Relativity actually started out being theoretical physics, relying on mathematical solutions and simulation like logical models or representation.

It were other scientists who verified Einstein’s works with repeatable experiments and empirical evidences, which turn his theoretical physics into experimental physics.

It is the scientific evidences that test hypothesis/theory, not some mathematical proofs.

If you can measure, quantify, test or detect/observe the phenomena, then these are evidences, not proof.

In science, there are no such things as “empirical proofs”. The right word to use is evidence, so “empirical evidences” make much more sense.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm sorry. You probably misread what I said.
Nowhere did I say, I know the dates to be wrong.
I specifically said, ...whereas some may accept that they got these dates right. I don't.

And I know of only two possibilities for that attitude,either ignorance or dishonesty. The former can be corrected. Are you ready to learn?

You can read it over if you doubt me.
I say this based on what is evidently true.

Reality is a complicated place. All we have to guide us, from an empirical point of view, are the quantities we can measure and observe. Even at that, those quantities are only as good as the tools and equipment we use to make those observations and measurements. Distances and sizes are only as good as the measuring sticks you have access to; brightness measurements are only as good as your ability to count and quantify photons; even time itself is only known as well as the clock you have to measure its passage. No matter how good our measurements and observations are, there's a limit to how good they are.

So once again you post a link to an article that you did not understand and think that you have made a point.

I can help you with the concept of radiometric dating. How it works and why we know that it is accurate.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said scientific theory or testable hypothesis required scientific EVIDENCES to be true. He didn’t say PROOFS.

Proof and evidence are not the same things in science.

Proof is merely a logical or mathematical statement, like a mathematical equation or a formula, or even a constant. Proof only provide abstract logical solution.

Evidence, on the other hand, provide real-world solution, and you have to be able to observe or detect the evidence (detecting it required instrument or device), measure the evidence, quantify it, test it, or any combination of the above.

Regarding to observing and detecting, for instance, when people work with electricity and electronic, we cannot observe what electricity in wires, circuits, transistors, with our see with our eyes, hear with our ears, smell with our noses, though we could taste with our tongue or feel with touch (I highly don’t recommend the last two).

So how do we safely observe electricity. We used used devices, like the multimeters to measure the current, voltage, power, energy or resistance. Such a device can not only detect the presence of electricity, but safely measure it.

But getting back to proof and evidence.

The difference is, proof is only a statement on logic derived from human reasoning. But what if the person’s mathematical skills are not up to the task, and his equations are faulty or wrong?

Evidence on the other hand, are independent of human reasoning. When a person perform an experiment, then the result (evidence, not proof) will either back his claim or refute it.

Sometimes, the evidences will back up the proof (mathematical equations), but sometimes they don’t.

To give an example, Superstring Theory is not a “scientific theory” despite connotating the word “Theory” in its name. It is not a scientific theory, because it isn’t back up by testable scientific evidences. But Superstring Theory does have proofs, and these are in forms of complex equations.

Superstring Theory falls under the category of “theoretical” physics.

Other theoretical physics, like M-Theory (a subset of String Theory), Multiverse cosmology, etc, have proofs but no empirical evidences.

Theoretical science are actually in hypothetical phase in scientific model, it is a proposed solution that are currently untestable at this stage.

Theoretical physics rely on proofs, thus they relied on solving complex equations, but have no real world solution as in no empirical evidences.

Einstein’s Relativity actually started out being theoretical physics, relying on mathematical solutions and simulation like logical models or representation.

It were other scientists who verified Einstein’s works with repeatable experiments and empirical evidences, which turn his theoretical physics into experimental physics.

It is the scientific evidences that test hypothesis/theory, not some mathematical proofs.

In science, there are no such things as “empirical proofs”. The right word to use is evidence, so “empirical evidences” make much more sense.
To be fair, most creationists do not know the difference between proof and evidence. They constantly conflate the two. Worse yet they do not understand that they are making equivocation fallacies by using different definitions of the concept of "proof".
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK. Sit down, have a drink -- maybe a double -- and give this a chance. I'm going to link to Potty-Mouth again, but this time I've carefully reviewed the video and, while there's still a bit of snark, some scattered irreverence, and some questionable (even by me) hermenuetics, there is no potty-mouthism, and some good points are made.
This video deals with the animals on the arc:
Yes, but he still has long hair:confused:
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I'm sorry. You probably misread what I said.
Nowhere did I say, I know the dates to be wrong.
I specifically said, ...whereas some may accept that they got these dates right. I don't.
Now you are being semantics with the right and wrong.

If you think the dates are wrong, then provide the alternative dates from alternative scientific sources.

And you didn’t answer any of my questions.

I am asking if you are an expert then provide the necessary data. But if you are not (the expert), then cite your sources from your experts.

The purpose of me asking you these questions, so we can compare your data against the ones that you disagree with.

What dates do you or your experts can provide, as to when the Flood occurred or when the volcanic activities occurred at Ararat? What evidences do provide and how would you measure them?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
To be fair, most creationists do not know the difference between proof and evidence. They constantly conflate the two. Worse yet they do not understand that they are making equivocation fallacies by using different definitions of the concept of "proof".
That I have to explain to each different creationists these differences, just showed how little they pay attention to their science classes...that if they actually study science at all.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Neither did your version of God. Do you remember the one assumption that I said that I made? If there is a God he can't lie. Events like you propose would leave evidence The lack of such evidence tells us that it did not happen.
The mid-Atlantic ridge. The rift valley between two tectonic plates. It's my personal opinion that the mid-Atlantic ridge is where the water came out. To this day magma from the mantel continues to come out. So water coming out in the time of Noah is not such a far-fetched idea. Anyway, it's hard for me to believe that God created the world with a giant scar on it. That would seem to me to be a flaw. So I hypothesize that this "scar" must not have originally been there.
Not on the surface where it is needed. So another fail.
... The Bible explicitly states that the "fountains of the great deep" were broken up. So underground water is precisely the water we should be talking about.
And remember the assumption that God does not lie. If you want to claim that God lies then one can't disprove the flood.
A lack of evidence does not equal proof of the contrary. It may be counted as "evidence" but not proof. There is a difference between evidence and proof. So I could say that because we've never seen flying purple unicorns; therefore they probably don't exist. But I cannot say that they definitely do not exist. That is not logical. Proof is when the court case is closed. The jury can't deny the verdict anymore. Evidence is just little things building your case up to the point of proof. You cannot disprove Noah's flood.

Your analogy of a pristine kitchen untouched by a buffalo herd is a false analogy because we all know that the world is not that perfect and indeed there is evidence for at the very least "floods" (plural) all over the world. So coming back to your analogy you will certainly find evidence of buffalo in the kitchen. It's just a matter of how big of a stampede it really was. So in conclusion it's not so simple of a matter to disprove a global flood.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That I have to explain to each different creationists these differences, just showed how little they pay attention to their science classes...that if they actually study science at all.
I have read countless posts where creationists demonstrate that they do not understand the concept of scientific evidence. When I point that out to them they never have either proper responses to that claim of mine. They should either prove that they do understand the concept or admit that they don't and take some time to learn. Instead they invariably either pretend that I have insulted them or ignore the correction. Even when I point out that understanding evidence and the scientific method are of use in many other debates they still run away.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The mid-Atlantic ridge. The rift valley between two tectonic plates. It's my personal opinion that the mid-Atlantic ridge is where the water came out. To this day magma from the mantel continues to come out. So water coming out in the time of Noah is not such a far-fetched idea. Anyway, it's hard for me to believe that God created the world with a giant scar on it. That would seem to me to be a flaw. So I hypothesize that this "scar" must not have originally been there.

Except we know how that formed. That ridge is merely a divergence zone. It is where two p!are are separating. It slowly sinks a bit as it moves away from that center. The entire ocean floor is old mid ocean ridge.

... The Bible explicitly states that the "fountains of the great deep" were broken up. So underground water is precisely the water we should be talking about.

Which would cook Noah and family.

A lack of evidence does not equal proof of the contrary. It may be counted as "evidence" but not proof. There is a difference between evidence and proof. So I could say that because we've never seen flying purple unicorns; therefore they probably don't exist. But I cannot say that they definitely do not exist. That is not logical. Proof is when the court case is closed. The jury can't deny the verdict anymore. Evidence is just little things building your case up to the point of proof. You cannot disprove Noah's flood.

You do not seem to realize that there are several definitions of "proof" . One can only not satisfy the mathematical definition. By the legal definition the flood has been proven not to have occurred.

Your analogy of a pristine kitchen untouched by a buffalo herd is a false analogy because we all know that the world is not that perfect and indeed there is evidence for at the very least "floods" (plural) all over the world. So coming back to your analogy you will certainly find evidence of buffalo in the kitchen. It's just a matter of how big of a stampede it really was. So in conclusion it's not so simple of a matter to disprove a global flood.
Fine, the kitchen is not pristine, we can find evidence of ants and maybe even a roach or two. Satisfied?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The mid-Atlantic ridge. The rift valley between two tectonic plates. It's my personal opinion that the mid-Atlantic ridge is where the water came out. To this day magma from the mantel continues to come out. So water coming out in the time of Noah is not such a far-fetched idea. Anyway, it's hard for me to believe that God created the world with a giant scar on it. That would seem to me to be a flaw. So I hypothesize that this "scar" must not have originally been there.

No where in Genesis does it ever mention the Atlantic Ocean, let alone the mid-Atlantic ridge.

Plus, if the water were high enough to covered mountains, including the mountains of Ararat, with the highest peak being the Greater Ararat, over 5000 metres, then the sea level would dramatically and irrevocably change too.

The sea level take centuries and millennia to change just a few metres. But if Genesis Flood went beyond the summit of Ararat’s highest peak, then the sea level would not go back to original sea level before the Noah’s Flood.

Where did all that water go? It wouldn’t just vanish in a matter of half-a-year, as the Genesis stated.

If Genesis Flood did occurred as stated, covering the highest mountains, then the Pyramids at Giza should still be underwater in Jesus’ time.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Except we know how that formed. That ridge is merely a divergence zone. It is where two p!are are separating. It slowly sinks a bit as it moves away from that center. The entire ocean floor is old mid ocean ridge.
My point is that the water could have come out there when the two plates originally began to separate.
Which would cook Noah and family.
Not necessarily; if it came out on the sea floor it would result in a rise in sea level. If on the other hand it was not actual sea floor at the time; then with enough pressure it could rise into the atmosphere much like a volcanic ash plum (except steam this time). Basically it would come back as torrential rainfall just like the Bible talks about. We've never seen it rain for 40 days straight around the world and indeed it's impossible with normal weather patterns.
You do not seem to realize that there are several definitions of "proof" . One can only not satisfy the mathematical definition.
Alright.
By the legal definition the flood has been proven not to have occurred.
Oh really?
Fine, the kitchen is not pristine, we can find evidence of ants and maybe even a roach or two. Satisfied?
Well it's an improvement ...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My point is that the water could have come out there when the two plates originally began to separate.

That was about 200 million years ago.

Not necessarily; if it came out on the sea floor it would result in a rise in sea level. If on the other hand it was not actual sea floor at the time; then with enough pressure it could rise into the atmosphere much like a volcanic ash plum (except steam this time). Basically it would come back as torrential rainfall just like the Bible talks about. We've never seen it rain for 40 days straight around the world and indeed it's impossible with normal weather patterns.

Necessarily. You have no clue as to how much was was needed for the flood or how hot the water is deep withing the Earth. The water that you earlier referred to would not have come out as liquid water. It would be a super heated fluid. Essentially a gas hot enough and at a high enough pressure to cut through metal as if it were butter.

Alright.

Oh really?

Well it's an improvement ...

Not much. The lack of evidence for the flood still tells us that it did not happen. If anything the floods that we see make the Noah's Ark flood even more impossible. They are all smaller floods and many of them are older than any proposed date for the flood. If the flood was real those records should have been "overwritten" by a newer stronger flood.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
No where in Genesis does it ever mention the Atlantic Ocean, let alone the mid-Atlantic ridge.
What is the "great deep"? It's ocean.

Plus, if the water were high enough to covered mountains, including the mountains of Ararat, with the highest peak being the Greater Ararat, over 5000 metres, then the sea level would dramatically and irrevocably change too.

The sea level take centuries and millennia to change just a few metres. But if Genesis Flood went beyond the summit of Ararat’s highest peak, then the sea level would not go back to original sea level before the Noah’s Flood.
The sea level could have risen. How do you know it didn't rise? Anyway I dispute this argument for other reasons also. But seriously, how do you know it didn't rise?

Where did all that water go? It wouldn’t just vanish in a matter of half-a-year, as the Genesis stated.

If Genesis Flood did occurred as stated, covering the highest mountains, then the Pyramids at Giza should still be underwater in Jesus’ time.
It went into the oceans and back underground. Again we don't know what the sea level was before the flood. We only know what it is now. According to ancient accounts the Atlantic ocean was considered impassible for ships because it was muddy. This was attributed to the sinking of Atlantis. The stories of Atlantis themselves may be memories of the antediluvian world.
 
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