How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

[paarsurrey]

Since we are starting into this I want to say my faith neither stands or falls on the flood being true. So I will not be offended if you do not go along with anything I say. I do however believe it to be true, we may not fully understand what is said or are misinterpreting what is said.

I do not feel there were icecaps before the flood, why do you believe they were? I assume by their age, but how do you know they are millions of years old?

Does one mean that Christian faith is not affected by the flood being true or being untrue because it is not among the core creed of Pauline Christianity, which was initiated by Paul when Jesus was out of Judea and heading on his journey towards India but very much alive after the event of Crucifixion in which he did not die but was in near-dead position?

Regards

 

[james dixon]

The Book of Genesis does not state when it was written. The date of authorship is likely between 1440 and 1400 B.C., between the time Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and his death.
Book of Genesis - Bible Survey


During that time period all they knew of the world around them was the Mediterranean sea. The Atlantic and the Pacific oceans had not been discovered yet. The evolutionary process stated therein is just now being proven to be correct. I admit that it was written to the local population of the time yet it still rings true today..

Columbus sail across the ocean in 1492; AD

 

[Subduction Zone]

Something to consider- sorry; it's a long read

The major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland, which spewed out massive amounts of larva, coupled with a close encounter with a passing comet and a Tunguska like fireball, are believed to have been major issues in the inundation of Ireland that is said to have been left waste for 30 odd years, and the devastating flood around the Mediterranean Sea, which was the known civilized world in the days of Noah around 2350 B.C, the time when this catastrophic event is said to have occurred.

To those who are interested, I would advise them to read the complete “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. Following is a small extract from said article.

Marie-Agnes Courty (CNRS, Grignon) presented new archaeological data concerning a catastrophe inferred to have occurred in the Middle East c.2350 BC. She emphasized the importance of high-time-resolution archaeological investigations in the assessment of natural catastrophes on societal collapse, the data in this case indicating the combination of a burnt surface horizon and air blast, consistent with a Tunguska-like fireball, but possibly also a major volcanic event.

The evidence for regional environmental change at about the same time was confirmed and extended by Mike Baillie (Queen’s University Belfast), whose tree-ring analyses of Irish bog oaks showed very significant narrowing of the rings around the year 2345 BC, associated with identified tephra from the Icelandic Hekla 4 volcano, dated to 2310 +/- 20 BC. This suggests a volcanic origin of the c. 2350 BC event identified by Courty, but the period in question is also associated with other events, including floods, the creation of new lakes and even the traditional start of Chinese history! In Baillie’s words, 2345 BC ‘is a classic marker date, i.e. a date which will show up on a regular basis in studies of various kinds’.

Although the flood story as handed down from Noah to his descendant Abraham, may have been a local event around Ireland and the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and as far inland to the Euphrates and beyond, it would have been recorded as an event which had flooded their entire known world.

And according to the “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey,” there were world-wide volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, and destructive floods, which have been recorded from many different civilisations around the globe.

The people of the pre-flood days would not have known that the circumference of the earth was almost 25,000 miles, nor would they have known how many continents and islands there are on this earth. Their known world was limited to the civilised world of those days.

The animals that were taken into the ark, would have been those which were chosen from the animals that had been forced to flee from the rising waters to the higher ground, upon which Noah would have presumably built the ark, which animals would have only been those of his known world that was flooded around the year 2350 BC.

The Ark, which was a rectangular chest-like floating container built of Kopherwood, would of necessity, have to be sealed inside and out with bitumen to stop it from leaking, and Kopherwood is simply any wood that is coated with tar/bitumen. The Ark was subject to tides, currents and wind, having no means of propulsion or steerage, it was guided by the hand of the Lord.

According to the Turin papyrus list, Teti ruled for six months, and Pepi 1, began his rule after Teti, which according to some Egyptologists, was 33 years later, leaving a gap of 33 years between Teti and his successor Pepi, this would support the belief that some catastrophic event occurred around that time, where the evidence shows that Ireland was inundated, around the time of the eruption of Helka4 and is said to have remained desolate for 30 years. A flood of that magnitude would have surely been experienced throughout the Middle East, and perhaps Egypt was desolate and without a king or countrymen for some thirty years also. I believe that the flood that occurred in Noah’ day, around 2,350 BC, was an event that would have been recorded and handed down by a witness of that era, as a world-wide flood.

According to the “Report on Second Cambridge Conference,” an article by Mark Bailey Posted December 15 1997. There were major events occurring around the world at that time, floods, Meteorite strikes, caused by a close encounter with a disintegrating comet, presumable causing catastrophic world-wide tsunami’ etc, and the flood stories are found throughout the countries of the world.

Over 2,000 years before George Smith’s discovery of the deluge tablets in Iraq, there existed an account of the Chaldean [pre-Babylonian] flood myth. Berosus, an ancient Chaldean historian living in the time of Alexander the Great in the 4th century B.C.E, relayed to the Greeks the antiquity of his peoples deluge myth in the following words: “After the death of Ardates, his son Xisuthrus reigned eighteen sari. In his time happened a great deluge; the history of which is thus described.

The deity Cronos appeared to him in a vision, and warned him that upon the fifteenth day of the month Daesius there would be a flood, by which mankind be destroyed. He therefore enjoined him to write a history of the beginning, procedure, and conclusion of all things, and to bury it in the city of the sun at Sippara; and to build a vessel, and take with him into it his friends and relations; and to convey on board everything necessary to sustain life, together with all the different animals, [In the area of his known world] both birds and quadrupeds, and trust himself fearlessly to the deep.

Having asked the Deity whither he was to sail, he was answered, “To the Gods;” upon which he offered up a prayer for the good of mankind. He then obeyed the divine admonition and built a vessel five stadia in length, and two in breadth. Into this he put everything which he had prepared, and last of all conveyed into it his wife, his children and his friends. After the flood had been upon the earth, and was in time abated, Xisuthrus sent out birds from the vessel; which finding no food, nor any place whereupon they might rest their feet, returned to him again. After an interval of some days, he sent them forth a second time; and they now returned with their feet tinged with mud. He made a trial a third time with these birds; but they returned to him no more: from whence he judged that the surface of the earth had appeared above the waters.

He therefore made an opening in the vessel, and upon looking out found that it was stranded upon the side of some mountains; upon which he immediately quitted it with his wife, his children, and the pilot. Xisuhrus then paid his adoration to the earth: and having constructed an altar, offered sacrifices to the Gods.”

It should be noted that the account of the deluge relayed in the tablets discovered by George Smith differ only very slightly from Berosus’ account, which differs only slightly from the story handed down by the Chaldean, Abraham, whose father ‘Terah’ was High Priest in the temple of the Chaldean city of Ur.

The flood of Noah didn’t come as a surprise. It had been preached on for four generations. Something strange happened when Enoch was 65, from which time “He walked with God.” Enoch was given a prophecy that as long as his firstborn son ‘Methuselah’ was alive, the judgement of the flood would be withheld, but as soon as he died, the flood would be sent forth.

Enoch named his firstborn to reflect this prophecy. The name Methuselah comes from two roots: muth, a root that means death, and from shalach, which means ‘To Bring’ or ‘To Send Forth.’ Thus, the name Methuselah signifies, ‘His Death Shall Bring.’ And, indeed, in the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.

Remembering that Abraham was the son of Terah the High priest of the temple in the Chaldean city of Ur, and he was, according to the erroneous Roman OT, 58 when Noah died, but who, according to the Septuagint, was born 822 years after the death of Noah, the question is now asked, could the Chaldean name ‘Arsates’ mean, ‘When he dies it will happen? And could the name ‘Xisuthrus’ have the same meaning as that of the name ‘Noah’, which is, “One who brings relief or comfort?”

The Chaldean month of Daesius, is the 2nd month, which corresponds with the biblical account that it was in the second month that the flood came. But there is a two-day discrepancy: the biblical account is the 17th day, [See Genesis 7: 11.] whereas the other is the 15th day.

These three flood accounts are so similar it becomes obvious that they originated from the one source. Another interesting similarity between the Chaldean deluge story and the one as handed down through the Hebrew, is that before the flood, people lived extraordinary long lives until the god/gods declared that man shall no longer live past a restricted age limit. This signifies that the floods of both cultures mark the same transition in the history of the world, that being, the birth of the modern world.

The more that I am forced to look at the flood accounts, the more I am convinced that some catastrophic event occurred 4,500 years ago, which caused worldwide devastating floods and tsunamis, of which the more accurate account of the flood that devastated the civilized world of that day, can be found in the Hebrew culture that came down from the Chaldean Abraham, and his family, whose language and racial religion have remained intact for over 4,000 years.

Sorry, too long didn't read. It also breaks the rules of the forum. When you quote a source, as you did, you need to supply a link to the source. Can you please fix this?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Book of Genesis does not state when it was written. The date of authorship is likely between 1440 and 1400 B.C., between the time Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and his death.
Book of Genesis - Bible Survey


During that time period all they knew of the world around them was the Mediterranean sea. The Atlantic and the Pacific oceans had not been discovered yet. The evolutionary process stated therein is just now being proven to be correct. I admit that it was written to the local population of the time yet it still rings true today..

Columbus sail across the ocean in 1492; AD

Nope, Moses is another mythical character of the Bible. He did not write Genesis, or Exodus either. Try to find a valid source. Not a biased one. It is thought by most modern scholars to have been written in the 5th Century BCE, during the Babylonian Exile:

Book of Genesis - Wikipedia

 

[james dixon]

Sorry, too long didn't read. It also breaks the rules of the forum. When you quote a source, as you did, you need to supply a link to the source. Can you please fix this?

If you don't care to read it then you cannot comment on it one way or the other

Yahweh: A Volcano Mountain GOD of Fire and War

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you don't care to read it then you cannot comment on it one way or the other

Yahweh: A Volcano Mountain GOD of Fire and War

Of course I can comment. My comment was that you broke the rules. One can't vet a source unless one knows what the source was.

ETA: And now I see that it is not a reliable source at all.

See if you can find a reliable source if you want people to discuss this nonsense.

 

[james dixon]

Try to find a valid source. Not a biased one.

You are the one being "biased". Now "you" try to find a source that refutes my source.

That is, if you can LOL

 

[james dixon]

Of course I can comment. My comment was that you broke the rules. One can't vet a source unless one knows what the source was. And now I see that it is not a reliable source at all.

You broke the "RULES"!!! no,no,no it's not a reliable source!!!!!

lol.,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol

Woops, no longer laughing, going for a glass of water,

later

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are the one being "biased". Now "you" try to find a source that refutes my source.

That is, if you can LOL

I did so with ease. A garbage site can be refuted with a source as weak as Wikipedia. All that eruption did was to lower the temperature a little for a few years. No "flood" caused by it:

Hekla - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

You broke the "RULES"!!! no,no,no it's not a reliable source!!!!!

lol.,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol,.,.,lol

Woops, no longer laughing, going for a glass of water,

later

"Quotations and Citations/References Plagiarism is illegal. All quotations, whether to posts of other members or to material external to RF, should be properly referenced or cited. When quoting other members, use the forum's quote ..."

That is the rule that you broke.

 

[paarsurrey]

No, not really. God is a man made concept. It can do anything that man can think of. But I was asking for your version of the flood.

Sorry, I don't agree with one about G-d. G-d made man, man never made G-d. G-d does not do anything of blemish.
I gave my source in one of my posts (#1096) and give below again.

The Holy Quran - Chapter: 71: Nooh
Also The Holy Quran - Chapter: 11: Hud and other places in Quran.
Regards

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, I don't agree with one about G-d. G-d made man, man never made G-d. G-d does not do anything of blemish.
I gave my source in one of my posts (#1096) and give below again.

The Holy Quran - Chapter: 71: Nooh
Also The Holy Quran - Chapter: 11: Hud and other places in Quran.
Regards

Yes, but the Quran is hardly a reliable source. I merely want your version of the flood. I am not going to plow through writings that have multiple interpretations. The question is do you want to learn why we know that Noah is a mythical man made being or not?

 

[Sapiens]

Why are you so interested in showing people to "be in error". Does that make you feel like you are a better person?

No it does not, but getting a grasp on demonstrable reality might make you actually be a better person.

Floods are a common phenomenon, and most people have always lived near rivers and coastlines. They're a convenient and familiar agent of cataclysm and could be expected to figure prominently in folklore worldwide.

People can go a lot longer without food than they can without water so the tend to live close to a water source. If you live on a river you will experience a hundred year flood every hundred years and a thousand year flood every thousand years (funny how that happens) and such tales will slide smoothly into your culture's mythology.

Thanks, but no thanks. I stopped after the 5th minutes of hearing Mr. Wise... well actually now Mr. Potty Mouth, since he rudely interrupted the video. So you guys will have to fill me in.

I'm not here to give the poster of the OP, any dart boards to throw at either. He has the Bible - Genesis 6-8 can't be so hard to read, and I never heard of any skeptic dying from reading the Bible.

However, I'll start with the video - at least the first five minutes.
First though, let me say this.
In Proverbs 9:10, and 14:6 the then wise king Solomon wrote

Centuries later, a follower of Jesus Christ - the wiser Solomon said this at 1 Corinthians 1:19 and 3:19

This I have found to be true.

Firstly...
When it come to the evolution theory, atheist and Bible skeptics are happy to accept that the earth and conditions on it (geographically, environmentally, etc) were vastly different from the way it is. In fact conditions always somehow seem to fit whatever theory seems to work best.
When it comes to the Bible, skeptics know how it was - It always seem to be exactly the way it is today.
So you need x amount of gallons of water to cover the mountains - as we know them today, and you need x amount of species of animals - as we know them today - to fill Noah's ark... etc. etc. Amusing.

The reasoning on mountain formation was amusing as well. Actually every part of it I saw was.
Mountains are formed in more than one way. Here is just one. No lava. Teenagers know that every mountain is not volcanic.

Secondly...
The water did not just come from the sky.
Genesis 7:11, 12


What else?

Plenty of lava on Arrarat, last eruption was 1840. It is the same sort of volcano as Mt. St. Helens.

Well, mister zone, let me explain the timeline to you, since you seem to know it all.

First of all, the Bible is a recurring prophecy. The events described in it come to pass at the end of every Age or "Yuga", in the Vedic timeline. We are swiftly approaching the end of the fourth Age or "Kali Yuga".

What you need to understand is that these Ages are all of finite length. They are based on the "procession of the equinox". We are currently coming to the end of the fourth Age. There are specific events that occur at the end of every Age, that must happen.

There is a "prophet for the end of the Age" named in each.

There is also a battle that is officially titled, "The battle of good and evil that must be fought to end the Age". The battle for this current Age is the biblical "battle of the Armageddon". The first three battles, were respectively, the battle that is recalled in the "Epic of Gilgamesh" for the first Age, the "battle of the Ten Kings" where Moses kicked the Egyptians butts for the second Age, and the battle that must be fought in the third Age, was the Battle recounted in the Mahabharata.

There is a cataclysmic event that occurs at the end of every Age as well, and the flood of Noah was the event that ended the third Age.

The event that ended the second Age, which was the Age of Moses, was called the "Deluge" or "flood of Manu".

The "procession of the equinox", which these ages are all based upon, is 25,700 years in length. This Age is one procession in length. The age of Noah was two processions in length, at roughly 52,000 years. The Age of Moses, which was the second Age, was four processions in length at 104,000 years. And the first Age, of Abraham, was eight processions in length, which I'll let you figure out since youre a math genius.

So, absolutely, the flood did happen, twice. But the flood of Noah only once.

You're basing your assumption on a mathematical formula that isnt wrong in terms of the amount of rain possible, but assume that every one died in the flood. They did not. Looking at the time line of ireland, it becomes clear that they survived the flood, but then forty days and nights of rain is just the usual weather there. Go back to the Fomorian culture, who showed up there after the second flood or Deluge, and you'll find that the place was deserted, but there was evidence of life that they found there. That is because the people that lived there previously did not survive the Deluge, which was caused by a comet impacting in the laptev sea. The scar left in the earth from that one is still visible on satellite images. So, the flood of Noah really didn't effect Ireland because of the height of the island.

What you also fail to understand is the Bible is nothing but a eschatological prophecy, period, from beginning to end. There is no message of "good hope" in there. That was shoehorned in to it be the council of Nicea where the Bible was framed from ancient Sumerian and Babylonian texts.

And, another thing, mister geology, is that modern science does not understand the speed at which carbon degrades, and the timeline that you think you comprehend, is completely skewed.

When you consider the notion the modern science place the battle to end the first Age at a mere 20,000 years ago, and the actual timeline, places it more than 175,000 years age. That's a serious discrepancy.

So, the flood of Noah did occur, but you shouldn't worry about that. What you need to concern yourself with, is where you're going to be when the cataclysmic that ends this Age happens.

There is a thirty mile wide comet that will impact the earth in equatorial Amazonia that you probably want to get good seats for, since you'll be here for that one.

Your long on words and claims an rater short on data and rational analysis.

I'm not a young earth creationist.
The guys in the video were arguing about Mount Ararat. My argument is since every mountain isn't volcanic, how can we speculate as to the condition of the mountain over 4000 years ago.
Yes, it was amusing. The argument holds no water. imo.

But Mount Ararat is a polygenic, compound stratovolcano.

Well, I didn't know you read minds.

No need, but reading books has been know to help.

What's your point? I already knew that. My point is simply that enough water exists in or on the planet to make the great flood. It's true it would take great pressure to release the water. But then we're not pretending the flood was a normal every day occurrence.

You are confusing unavailable HOH with liquid HOH because both can be called "WATER." You'd do better to argue that it was magic.

There are over 700 Scientists that have signed a document stating they are unconvinced about Darwinism.

WOW! That's a lot of scientists.





Or is it?


Actually it's about 0.063% of the estimated 1,108,100 biological and geological scientists in the US in 1999

What?!? Less than 1%? Less than 1/10th of 1%?

Golly, that's not a lot after all.

Let's not forget Project Steve: Project Steve - Wikipedia

 

[Audie]

Probably cuz they are. They deny stuff that are basically facts aboutour geological history so they can deny the Bible. They act like they're brilliant and superior when most of them have never built anything, or personally discovered anything. They're just referring to what old men in glasses say, not understanding some of them have political agendas and others are senile.

To answer the question, no that's not my midterm linked there. Mine was based on a newspaper article about an underground cave found inside the Alps that showed a water line long ago. It's like this. When a rock area is submerged for a great deal of time, there are water lines. It's not that these dry off. Rather they discolor the rock in such a way that you can always tell that at one point the water was this height. We had relative evidence about how size inside this mountain melted then later refroze. But as you can see from that article, flooding happened in places other than just the Alps.

First off, it is not "deny the bible". SOME things in the bible,
and SOME people''s chosen way to INTERPRET the bible
are what is at issue, not the whole stinkin' bible.

The bible mentions Egypt; sure, there is a place called
Egypt.

Some, who are careless or perhaps insane,
think that someone is out there trying to deny
EVERYTHING in the bible. And EVERY interpretation.

Now, with regard to this-

They deny stuff that are basically facts aboutour geological history so they can deny the Bible

Who are "they"?

It is necessary to be ignorant of, or in denial of
pretty much everything in geology in order to try
to prop up belief in a world wide flood.

Whether such people are communists, mentally weak,
or simply insane varies with the individual.

 

[Audie]

I used to think this is great when I first heard about it in 2004, and it should be interesting.

But the more I found out about the Black Sea Deluge and the deeper I dig into this subject, I realised how little substance this hypothesis has.

A little common sense would tell you that since it was
the rising waters in the Mediterranean that the water
at first only came through at high high tide, then, as world
sea level slowly rose, finally steady trickle? And, as
weather warmed and cooled, as it did and does, it would stop,
then flow again.

No big rush of water!