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How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
If all the animals survived in the Ark were at Ararat, then how did slow moving wombat and koalas reach Australia?

Neither of them are swimmers.

Say that reached south east Asia without getting killed by predators, how are there no remains of wombats and koalas existing in Asia?

It would have taken many generations and many should have died in the journey to reach south east Asia, and neither have long life span, so how could the be no trace of them in Asia?

Facepalm.

Do none of you guys ever read anything?

As I already said on another page, this event was likely an allegory to explain the ascent of land creatures from the sea (probably just past the Silurian period), while at the same time explaining God's redemptive power. It is not supposed to be taken as some sort of historical account.

Further, the Bible flood story is far from the only one. This is wikipedia's list of flood stories. There are a few.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If all the animals survived in the Ark were at Ararat, then how did slow moving wombat and koalas reach Australia?

Neither of them are swimmers.

Say that reached south east Asia without getting killed by predators, how are there no remains of wombats and koalas existing in Asia?

It would have taken many generations and many should have died in the journey to reach south east Asia, and neither have long life span, so how could the be no trace of them in Asia?
It's a pity that Conservipedia finally changed their entry on this. They seriously suggested that it could have been done with volcanoes.

Edit: Here is a video on that claim:

 
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Audie

Veteran Member
You quoted from Wikipedia, but no where in that quote, and in the rest of the article, does it ever stated that the current interglacial period - Holocene - resulting in a global flood set in some point in the second half of 3rd millennium BCE.

The Holocene (current interglacial period) started 11,700 years ago.

That’s about 7000 years before “the supposed Flood” of Noah around 2340 to 2100 BCE (that’s depending on how you would read/interpret Exodus 12:40-41; my guess is that 430 years referred god revealing the covenant to Abraham (when he was 85 years old) in Genesis 15, just before Ishmael was born).

A 7000-year gap, it is a very long time, james, for all the ice to melt all at ice, 2340 BCE.

But you are forgetting one important thing about the Ice Age. With the Quaternary Ice Age (or the Pleistocene Glaciation), the ice sheets never covered all of Earth.

In Europe for example, the maximum extent of the last glacial period never covered places like Spanish-French peninsula, Italian peninsula, and any part of the Balkan (south of the Danube, which would include Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece).

In Central Europe, only the northern part of Germany was covered in ice sheets, but to the south, only because of the attitude, only a pocket of ice sheets covered most of the Alps surrounded by ice sheet-free regions.

As to the Middle East, the ice sheets never covered any part Anatolian Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. The ice sheets did covered the Caucasus mountains, but like the Swiss Alps, the ice sheets only covered the high altitudes of the mountains in Caucasus, so it was surrounded by ice-free zones in lower lying regions. But south of the Caucasus, the Middle East was free from the ice sheets.

But getting back to my point. Since the ice sheets only covered the Caucasus, then there are not ice sheets to melt, to flood ancient civilisations of Levant, Mesopotamia and Egypt.

And in Genesis Flood, Noah supposedly landed somewhere in the Ararat, but even here, there are no evidence that the Quaternary Ice Age ever covered Ararat.

If we are to believe your claim that the melting from the Ice Age, then why would Flood occurred after 7000-year gap?

Your claim are missing some facts about the ice age.

The melting of ice sheets didn’t occur all at once. Nor is the melting ice would cause enough water to flood all the highest mountains.

There certainly wouldn’t be enough melted ice from the Caucasus to cover all of Middle East, and left Noah’s Ark somewhere stranded on a mountain top, and the highest peak (Greater Ararat) in Ararat is over 5000 metres high. There aren’t even enough ice for water to reach the peak of 3900 metres of the Lesser Ararat.

Your claims of melting ice sheets causing the Flood, is unrealistic wishful thinking.

The meltwater only got oceans up to where they are now!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Facepalm.

Do none of you guys ever read anything?

As I already said on another page, this event was likely an allegory to explain the ascent of land creatures from the sea (probably just past the Silurian period), while at the same time explaining God's redemptive power. It is not supposed to be taken as some sort of historical account.

Further, the Bible flood story is far from the only one. This is wikipedia's list of flood stories. There are a few.
Egyptians say when the world began, it was covered in water, no lands, like Genesis 1:1-2. But there are nothing like Genesis 7 & 8, where the Flood killed a whole lot of people with only few survivors.

They do have a myth in the 19th dynasty of a goddess Hathor, in the form of killing and devouring people who offended the Sun god Re, but no flooding.

They do have god, cannot remember his name, involving controlling the annual floods that occurred on the Nile, to assist with irrigation of farming, but none of the myths concerning drowning all but a few humans.

In Bronze Age Canaan, there are no story of flood or similar figure like Noah in any of their literature, even though the Canaanites were aware of the story of Gilgamesh, since there are fragments of clay tablet found in Megiddo, containing the epic. But I have not seen any English translation made available, so I don’t know which part of the epic that survived in the Megiddo tablet.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
See Izbet Sartah Ostracon.
Well, this one is news to me, Jayhawker.

Thank you, I am always interested in new discoveries.

What does it say? Have they translated it into English yet?

Because the article indicated they don’t know what it mean, they have been struggling with translation.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Well, this one is news to me, Jayhawker.

Thank you, I am always interested in new discoveries.

What does it say? Have they translated it into English yet?

Because the article indicated they don’t know what it mean, they have been struggling with translation.

See here. What's particularly of interest is the abecedary (and the role it might play in dating some of the Psalms), but all of this is way off topic. :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
See here. What's particularly of interest is the abecedary (and the role it might play in dating some of the Psalms), but all of this is way off topic. :)
Both articles are very interesting. Thank you. :)

They do push back the alphabets back earlier than expected, but these inscriptions only point to literacy, but not likely related to the Torah/bible.

At least the proto-Canaanite alphabets are older than the Gezer Calendar and Zayit Stone. I was wrong about that.

As I was telling nPeace, the written Genesis (and others belonging to the Torah) don’t exist in Bronze Age, this remain true.

The alphabets were relatively new at that time, so I am not surprised how little were found. The cuneiform were more popular and widespread in the Middle East.

Had Genesis and Exodus being true in the Bronze Age, it would be more like they would be written in cuneiform, and if Moses did lead his people out of Egypt, then any text could be written in Egyptian hieroglyphs or hieratic.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Great! Therefore, since the big event of life forming itself to a single-celled organism, and evolving to other organism, has not left a trace, the evolution theory is a modern day fairytale... Cool... according to your logic.
???? -- Now it's the ToE? OK, I'll bite. What problems do you have with evolution?
To me it is physical evidence that real ancient physical peoples migrated out of ancient Babylon.
Mankind can trace its ' family tree ', so to speak, back to ancient Babylon.
So, as those ancient people migrated throughout the Earth they took with them their Flood stories or legends.
But mankind was around long before there was any Babylon. Any family tree tracing would have to go way back before anyone ever thought of building a city, no?
I found a lot of miocene mammal fossils in Nebraska badlands. Usually a
scrap of bone, a tooth, a single bone. Same as what you will see in a
pasture, a skeleton does not stay intact for long. Complete fossil
skeletons are rare.

Some fossils I found showed they'd been chewed by rodents, or were
cracked and "checkered" from lying in the open before burial.

These creoswho pretend they know all about fossil formation-rapid, flood,
all that- are just ignorant liars.
And a lot of really old fossils are casts, or have been petrified -- replaced by stone. These take a really long time to form.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
???? -- Now it's the ToE? OK, I'll bite. What problems do you have with evolution?
But mankind was around long before there was any Babylon. Any family tree tracing would have to go way back before anyone ever thought of building a city, no?
And a lot of really old fossils are casts, or have been petrified -- replaced by stone. These take a really long time to form.

Actually as stated he had a problem with abiogenesis. And for some strange reason he believes that there should be evidence of that event since the example I used was one where one would expect to see massive evidence.

How he got so confused I do not have a clue.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Those ancient Babylonian people were physical evidence because they could touch, feel, see, etc.
They physically multiplied and spread physical descendants along with their Flood stories or legends earth wide.
But that's not what physical evidence is.:confused:
@Valjean Ignoring snide remarks.
Every KIND. Yep. Exactly as you said. Not every variation of that kind. Not more than one kind of dog, or cat etc.

But you don't believe it so why use it to prove anything?
This use of "kind" as a technical term for what we'd call a biological genus or family is a new thing. I don't think the ancients had any concept of scientific taxonomy, they were just speaking colloquially, and even if they were referring to larger groups like genera, that still comprises an awful lot of creeping, crawling, walking and flying things.
If all the animals survived in the Ark were at Ararat, then how did slow moving wombat and koalas reach Australia?

Neither of them are swimmers.

Say that reached south east Asia without getting killed by predators, how are there no remains of wombats and koalas existing in Asia?

It would have taken many generations and many should have died in the journey to reach south east Asia, and neither have long life span, so how could the be no trace of them in Asia?
LOL -- good points.
How did the sloths reach South America, for that matter? They can barely drag themselves over the ground.
And what would this vast menagerie have been eating whilst en route to the far corners of the world, I wonder.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
LOL -- good points.
How did the sloths reach South America, for that matter? They can barely drag themselves over the ground.
And what would this vast menagerie have been eating whilst en route to the far corners of the world, I wonder.
Koalas don’t spent much time on the ground, they on the trees and chewing on gumtree leaves.

I don’t know much about trees in Australia and Asia, but do Asia have Eucalyptus?

Anyway. Can you imagine how long it would take for population of koalas migrating to Australia, staying at one tree, to feed and rest for several days, before moving to next tree?

They certainly couldn't make to other side of Asia, during their single lifetime, or in hundreds of generations.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
There were no Hebrew writing of any sort before the 10th century BCE.

The Hebrew writing system, the Hebrew alphabets didn’t exist until the 10th century BCE, and it was adopted and modified, evolving from the older Phoenician alphabets. And the Phoenicians did invent the alphabets until around 1200 BCE, so a couple before the first appearance of Hebrew alphabets.

Hebrew, like the Phoenician, was abjad, meaning vowel-less alphabets.

Before the Phoenician alphabets, the people of Levant, like that of the Mesopotamians (Babylonians and Assyrians) wrote in cuneiform, for example, the Ugaritic cuneiform from the city-state of Ugarit (now called Ras Shamra, in northwest Syria).

And before the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the Israelites were indistinguishable from the Canaanites during the 2nd millennium BCE Bronze Age, supposedly the time of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and Joshua, all supposedly lived in this millennium.

So yes, I do bring up the Bronze Age, because Moses, if he did exist as a historical person, would have lived in the 2nd half of 2nd millennium BCE.

I based this upon 1 Kings 6:1, 480 years. Solomon was supposedly began building the temple on 4th year of his reign, so about 967 or 966 BCE. If you do the math, then the Moses’ liberation of Israelite slaves and his departure from Egypt in Exodus 12 would have taken place about 1447 BCE.

But there are no Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus existing in Bronze Age written in cuneiform, nor in Hebrew alphabets though much of the Iron Age until the uncovering the scroll fragments (Silver Scrolls) found in 600 BCE at the cave of Ketef Hinnom.

There are no earlier literary evidences than the Silver Scrolls.

And this tell me one of two things, either (A) Moses didn’t write the Torah or Pentateuch, or (B) Moses didn’t exist.

If (b) is true, then so is (a).

There was never any evidence that Moses ever existing, nor that there was mass migration of freed Israelites roaming the wilderness, nor any evidence of Joshua’s invasion of Canaan (after 1407 BCE).

In Joshua, it stated that Jericho was abandoned after its capture, but all evidences showed that Jericho was already abandoned before 1600 BCE, due to earthquake, not war. There were no evidences of violence and fire in Jericho that normally associated with wars and sieges, when cities were captured.

Much of the Old Testament especially those supposedly set in the Bronze Age, don’t align with archaeological evidences, or they didn’t happen at all.
That's a lot of information.
That's good that you do your research.
I appreciate that. ...and yes, for the most part your information is correct. However... not all.

There were no Hebrew writing of any sort before the 10th century BCE.
According to whom?
Consider...
You were given this link
Although it is not verified, it does tell us something.
1)
Time is often needed to reveal truth, isn't that so?
Can we always rely on the accuracy of our secular records?
Consider one finding of a historical source:
Manetho
In regard to Manetho's relation to his Greek predecessors in the field of Egyptian history, we know that he criticized Herodotus, not, as far as we can tell, in a separate work, but merely in passages of his History.
there were many errors in Manetho's work from the very beginning : all are not due to the perversions of scribes and revisers.
Many of the lengths of reigns have been found impossible : in some cases the names and the sequence of kings as given by Manetho have proved untenable in the light of monumental evidence.
If one may depend upon the extracts preserved in Josephus, Manetho's work was not an authentic history of Egypt, exact in its details, as the Chaldaica of Berossos was, at least for later times. Manetho introduced into an already corrupted series of dynastic lists a number of popular traditions written.

So historical inaccuracies do exist, and can distort true Chronology. Agreed?
Why would one so quickly and readily accept Egyptian history - a nation so steeped in myth and superstition, and pride in their gods - which were, by the way, men. Why trust their data, and discard the record of men who humbly reveal their failings as a nation, and as individuals?
I find that interesting. Don't you?

2)
Where did language originate?
Where do all our languages come from?
What was the first universal language?

These are questions that get a resounding, 'we don't know.' Not the case with the Bible.

A big chunk of history is missing from your sources, so how can you determine what is the truth?
You can't determine that something isn't true simply because you don't want to accept it. You can't disprove a historical document, on the basis that, 'you think it is false'. Agreed?
No you have not proven the Bible to be false, so don't even go there.:D

The Bible has been proven - that's PROVEN - no guesswork or inference required - to be historically accurate - time and time again. Solid evidence - etched in stone, or fragments of other materials.

I'm not going to bother with the pages of information that verifies that (It's too long, and unnecessary here)
I will simply put two - one for old; one for new.

(This book contains a whole heap)
The Monuments and the Old Testament
(page 78 & 249)
In the years 1884-86 a French engineer by the name of Dieulafoy carried on excavations under the auspices of the Louvre Museum, Paris, at Susa, or the Shushan of the book of Esther.

The scene of the book of Esther is laid within the walls of Susa, and most of it within the limits of Shushan the Palace.
These facts render the ranges of ruins of old Susa of double interest to every student of Bible history. These mounds cover the buildings in which some of the most important facts of Persian history occurred. Probably there is no city where the very palaces in which the scenes of the Old Testament narrative can be so accurately reconstructed.

Pontius Pilate
Critics questioned whether there was a Roman governor of Judea named Pontius Pilate.

The evidence has been discovered and closed the mouth of the hungry lions. Interesting catch to that, since evidence also surfaced that proved his book was writen well before critics claimed.

Pontius Pilate was the fifth prefect of the Roman province of Judaea, serving under Emperor Tiberius from AD 26 to 36. He is best known today for the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
The sources for Pilate's life are an inscription known as the Pilate Stone, which confirms his historicity and establishes his title as prefect; a brief mention by Tacitus; Philo of Alexandria; Josephus; the four canonical gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; ...

UNTIL 1961, there was no concrete archaeological evidence that Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea, ever existed. There were accounts of him, of course, not least the accounts in the Gospels. But the records of his administration had disappeared completely: no papyri, no rolls, no tablets, no (authentic) letters to Rome. The Roman ruins that remained in Israel seemed to have nothing to do with him. Even his aqueduct - a project that got him into plenty of trouble at the time - appeared to have crumbled away.
In the summer of 1961, however, Italian archaeologists found a piece of limestone, 82cm wide by 68cm high, in the ruins of a sports stadium in Caesarea, beside the sea.
Pilate stone - Wikipedia

So there is concrete evidence both in the so-called old and new testament which confirms the Bible to be accurate and reliable historically. One or two pieces of evidence that appear - note APPEAR, to be missing, or that may simply be ignored, does not invalidate the other 85% or more, of solid evidence.

Aside from that, evidence is always coming to light. Nobody can say they know this or that, when they don't have all the facts.

There are a few more evidences for the Bible's truthfulness, and Christians therefore see no need to doubt the scriptures, despite what critics say. The scriptures prove true in identifying this situation as well.

I agree one can say, 'I don't see any evidence, or there is no evidence', but the same thing can be said about evolution. I don't see any evidence, and as far as I am concerned, there is no evidence for a universal common ancestor, nor evolution according to Darwinism.

I may go so far to say, I don't believe there is any either, but to say I know... I am still waiting for the ultimate truth to be revealed.
I will say though, that I believe with 100% certainty that I am on that path to ultimate truth.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No, the bulk of evidence still points to an African origin.

If people want to argue over a border, and something they can never prove, i say go right ahead. Knock yourself out. :)

They dismiss mythology. There is no archeological or geological evidence for the flood -- or Moses' Egyptian exodus, for that matter. Both would have left extensive evidence.
We don't need Bible stories for us to have a history. We have fossils, languages, architecture, DNA, &c, to piece together our species' history.
Origin stories are numerous and varied. The Hebrew tales are just one of them.
And you see no evidence.? Then it is evident that of the two groups of debaters, one is blind. Either that, or it's simply a case of, one think they know, but really don't.

You can't prove that.

Seriously?!
Science is fact based. Any 'stories' are based on empirical evidence, not folklore.
Big Bang? What does that have to do with evolution?
Life without cause? You're confusing science with religion. Science investigates causes and mechanisms. No scientist ever proposed magic poofing.
There a dozens of legends, from all over the world, some isolated, some with heavy borrowing. Floods and other tragedies happen almost everywhere.
You are saying that ours is not empirical evidence.
Do you want to isolate this, and let's talk about it?

There you go again. What flood?
Evidence?
Yes, there were lots of kingdoms, ethnic conflicts, wars and invasions in ancient times. They were common knowledge. They could be expected to figure in stories from the time.
I don't see anything remarkable in this.
The flood.
Evidence it happened.
I understand why you don't. Doesn't mean you are right. Sorry.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Lol

You really don’t have any concept of history and archaeology.

Yes, I know all about Genesis 10, Table of Nations, supposed accounted for the people that appeared after the Flood.

You brought up Egypt and the Sumer Mesopotamia not existing before the Flood, but both historical records and archaeological sites existing long before 2340 BCE.

Let focus on Egypt for now. I will get to Sumer, in my next reply.

2340 BCE, would put this in the time of the reign of Teti, from the 6th dynasty. Teti found his own dynasty, succeeded Unas of the 5th dynasty, and Teti’s own son son Pepi succeeded him.

My point is that Unas, Teti and Pepi I, all had pyramids built in Saqqara.

Had there been a real flood killing everyone in Egypt, there would be no way for Teti or his son to build their tombs, because there would be no man power to help construct them.

If we were to believe that Ham’s son Egypt or Mizraim was indeed the first Egypt, then Egypt would have to reach 20 or so before becoming adult, so how many Egyptians would need to be born before Egyptians could begin building pyramids, temples and palaces.

Teti’s Pyramid is much smaller than the Pyramid of Khufu (at Giza), the 2nd king of 4th dynasty.

If Genesis is true, then there shouldn’t be any pyramid before 2340 BCE and before Ham’s son was born or becoming adult to fathering his own children.

But Egyptian history and archaeology demonstrated that Genesis account about Egypt isn’t true.

And Khufu’s Pyramid isn’t even the oldest pyramid. Khufu’s father built 3 pyramids.

And before that at the start of the 3rd dynasty, Djoser built the first pyramid in early 27th century BCE. This first pyramid was known as the Step Pyramid, because it is not a true pyramid in shape. The Step Pyramid resembled the stairs with 6 steps.

According to Egyptian religion of Re, the sun god, kings who died can reach Re’s sun boat, to become god’s crewmen, but in order to ascend to the heaven, they must climb stairs or ladder to reach Re’s boat, hence the pyramids were meant to represent the stair or ladder.

We know this myth, because stair or ladder are mentioned in the tomb of Unas and other kings after Unas, since these late pyramids contained hieroglyphs of the afterlife for their kings, known as the Pyramid Texts.

But Egyptian history even predated Djoser of the 3rd dynasty. Egypt even predated the 1st dynasty, because the worship of Horus, Hathor, Seth, and few other deities exist in the Protodynastic or Predynastic period (4000 - 3100 BCE), when Egypt was originally divided into 2 kingdoms: Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.

Egyptian culture can be traced to this period, found in their artefacts, and Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic started in 3200 BCE.

If Old Kingdom Egypt (3100 to 21st century BCE) didn’t exist before the flood in 2340 BCE, then why are there evidences of writing existing before 2340 BCE being the same writings that exist in Middle Kingdom (19th to 17th centuries BCE) and New Kingdom (mid-16th to 12th centuries BCE)?

Wouldn’t Egyptian writings be different?
See here.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's a lot of information.
That's good that you do your research.
I appreciate that. ...and yes, for the most part your information is correct. However... not all.


According to whom?
Consider...
You were given this link
Although it is not verified, it does tell us something.
1)
Time is often needed to reveal truth, isn't that so?
Can we always rely on the accuracy of our secular records?
Consider one finding of a historical source:
Manetho
In regard to Manetho's relation to his Greek predecessors in the field of Egyptian history, we know that he criticized Herodotus, not, as far as we can tell, in a separate work, but merely in passages of his History.
there were many errors in Manetho's work from the very beginning : all are not due to the perversions of scribes and revisers.
Many of the lengths of reigns have been found impossible : in some cases the names and the sequence of kings as given by Manetho have proved untenable in the light of monumental evidence.
If one may depend upon the extracts preserved in Josephus, Manetho's work was not an authentic history of Egypt, exact in its details, as the Chaldaica of Berossos was, at least for later times. Manetho introduced into an already corrupted series of dynastic lists a number of popular traditions written.

So historical inaccuracies do exist, and can distort true Chronology. Agreed?
Why would one so quickly and readily accept Egyptian history - a nation so steeped in myth and superstition, and pride in their gods - which were, by the way, men. Why trust their data, and discard the record of men who humbly reveal their failings as a nation, and as individuals?
I find that interesting. Don't you?

2)
Where did language originate?
Where do all our languages come from?
What was the first universal language?

These are questions that get a resounding, 'we don't know.' Not the case with the Bible.

A big chunk of history is missing from your sources, so how can you determine what is the truth?
You can't determine that something isn't true simply because you don't want to accept it. You can't disprove a historical document, on the basis that, 'you think it is false'. Agreed?
No you have not proven the Bible to be false, so don't even go there.:D

The Bible has been proven - that's PROVEN - no guesswork or inference required - to be historically accurate - time and time again. Solid evidence - etched in stone, or fragments of other materials.

I'm not going to bother with the pages of information that verifies that (It's too long, and unnecessary here)
I will simply put two - one for old; one for new.

(This book contains a whole heap)
The Monuments and the Old Testament
(page 78 & 249)
In the years 1884-86 a French engineer by the name of Dieulafoy carried on excavations under the auspices of the Louvre Museum, Paris, at Susa, or the Shushan of the book of Esther.

The scene of the book of Esther is laid within the walls of Susa, and most of it within the limits of Shushan the Palace.
These facts render the ranges of ruins of old Susa of double interest to every student of Bible history. These mounds cover the buildings in which some of the most important facts of Persian history occurred. Probably there is no city where the very palaces in which the scenes of the Old Testament narrative can be so accurately reconstructed.

Pontius Pilate
Critics questioned whether there was a Roman governor of Judea named Pontius Pilate.

The evidence has been discovered and closed the mouth of the hungry lions. Interesting catch to that, since evidence also surfaced that proved his book was writen well before critics claimed.

Pontius Pilate was the fifth prefect of the Roman province of Judaea, serving under Emperor Tiberius from AD 26 to 36. He is best known today for the trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
The sources for Pilate's life are an inscription known as the Pilate Stone, which confirms his historicity and establishes his title as prefect; a brief mention by Tacitus; Philo of Alexandria; Josephus; the four canonical gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; ...

UNTIL 1961, there was no concrete archaeological evidence that Pontius Pilate, the fifth governor of Judaea, ever existed. There were accounts of him, of course, not least the accounts in the Gospels. But the records of his administration had disappeared completely: no papyri, no rolls, no tablets, no (authentic) letters to Rome. The Roman ruins that remained in Israel seemed to have nothing to do with him. Even his aqueduct - a project that got him into plenty of trouble at the time - appeared to have crumbled away.
In the summer of 1961, however, Italian archaeologists found a piece of limestone, 82cm wide by 68cm high, in the ruins of a sports stadium in Caesarea, beside the sea.
Pilate stone - Wikipedia

So there is concrete evidence both in the so-called old and new testament which confirms the Bible to be accurate and reliable historically. One or two pieces of evidence that appear - note APPEAR, to be missing, or that may simply be ignored, does not invalidate the other 85% or more, of solid evidence.

Aside from that, evidence is always coming to light. Nobody can say they know this or that, when they don't have all the facts.

There are a few more evidences for the Bible's truthfulness, and Christians therefore see no need to doubt the scriptures, despite what critics say. The scriptures prove true in identifying this situation as well.

I agree one can say, 'I don't see any evidence, or there is no evidence', but the same thing can be said about evolution. I don't see any evidence, and as far as I am concerned, there is no evidence for a universal common ancestor, nor evolution according to Darwinism.

I may go so far to say, I don't believe there is any either, but to say I know... I am still waiting for the ultimate truth to be revealed.
I will say though, that I believe with 100% certainty that I am on that path to ultimate truth.


What a load of tosh. That the Bible is sometimes accurate does not mean that it is always accurate. Christians merely ignore or deny the errors in the Bible. Of course there is the entire books of Genesis and Exodus, the various errors associated with the crucifixion and the resurrection. No zombie apocalypse, no earthquake, no darkening. The Canaanites were not all victims of genocide, not even close. The list goes on.

And why do you think that there ever was one universal language? Different populations probably spoke different languages before man would be classified as "Homo sapiens". You can't rely on a myth to defend a myth.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If people want to argue over a border, and something they can never prove, i say go right ahead. Knock yourself out. :)


And you see no evidence.? Then it is evident that of the two groups of debaters, one is blind. Either that, or it's simply a case of, one think they know, but really don't.

You can't prove that.


You are saying that ours is not empirical evidence.
Do you want to isolate this, and let's talk about it?


The flood.
Evidence it happened.
I understand why you don't. Doesn't mean you are right. Sorry.
More tosh. Can you support any of your claims with valid sources? Why am I asking we all know that you can't.

Let me ask a direct question: What empirical evidence do you have for the flood?
 
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