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How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

Audie

Veteran Member
What lineage - Mary's?

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Jesus was not a descendant of Joseph. Jesus, if one is the believe the Bible, is the result of Mary being impregnated, without her consent, by a subset of God. Joseph was just a cuckold.


It should not be surprising that a Jew 2000 years ago believed what was written in his scripture.

In any case, how would Matthew know this? Did he ask Jesus? Did Jesus himself write that he believed in the Flood?

Hearsay, second hand evidence is that he implied that,
if in fact the is quoted correctly.

If he did say there was a flood, that would be kind of
convenient, as it would show beyond all doubt that
he was just another guy with a story, nothing
"divine" about him.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I find the use of "kind" (mankind / animal kind) is biblical. Each reproduced according to its own ' kind '.

To me people are: physical evidence. I know that sounds nit picky.
Anything perishable would have disappeared in the Flood ( except for what was on the Ark ).
So, 'material' (Not physical) evidence could have survived the Flood but No physical evidence except Ark people.

Distinction without a difference, my friend.


Physical evidence (also called real evidence or material evidence) is any material object that plays some role in the matter that gave rise to the litigation, introduced as evidence in a judicial proceeding (such as a trial) to prove a fact in issue based on the object's physical characteristics.


There is a truly vast abundance of physical, material, real
evidence that demonstrates far far beyond any reasonable
doubt that there was no and could not have been the world wide flood described in the Bible.

It is somewhere far past time for those who have not caught
up with the 18th century to do so.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Hearsay, second hand evidence is that he implied that,
if in fact the is quoted correctly.

If he did say there was a flood, that would be kind of
convenient, as it would show beyond all doubt that
he was just another guy with a story, nothing
"divine" about him.
I am amazed at how often Christians play the "Jesus card". They seem to have a hard time understanding that by doing so they are threatening his divinity.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You are of course, familiar with "No True Scotsamn"?

I often wonder how it is that everyone claims to have theTrue
Reading because God helps them.

But you all get something different.

Of course, as there was no flood, it seems possible you got
it wrong.
Not just the True Reading. You also must take into consideration the True Book: Bible, Koran, etc.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What lineage - Mary's?

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Jesus was not a descendant of Joseph. Jesus, if one is the believe the Bible, is the result of Mary being impregnated, without her consent, by a subset of God. Joseph was just a cuckold.
It should not be surprising that a Jew 2000 years ago believed what was written in his scripture.
In any case, how would Matthew know this? Did he ask Jesus? Did Jesus himself write that he believed in the Flood?

I am wondering how you decided ' without Mary's consent ' - Luke 1:38 - when she consented.
Luke did trace Jesus' maternal lineage. Please notice the start or beginning of Jesus' line at Luke 3:38 - Adam.
That is from the record found at 1 Chronicles 1:1. (Matthew traces Jesus' paternal line )
In record, the 'son-in-law' was considered as son. So, at marriage Joseph as son-in-law was son of Heli.

By way of adoption Joseph was the father giving Jesus the legal right to the throne of David.
By fleshly physical birth Mary gave Jesus the inherited right to the throne of David.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am wondering how you decided ' without Mary's consent ' - Luke 1:38 - when she consented.
Luke did trace Jesus' maternal lineage. Please notice the start or beginning of Jesus' line at Luke 3:38 - Adam.
That is from the record found at 1 Chronicles 1:1. (Matthew traces Jesus' paternal line )
In record, the 'son-in-law' was considered as son. So, at marriage Joseph as son-in-law was son of Heli.

By way of adoption Joseph was the father giving Jesus the legal right to the throne of David.
By fleshly physical birth Mary gave Jesus the inherited right to the throne of David.

There is nothing about consent in that verse. Perhaps you meant to link another one? And there is no reason to think that Luke presented Mary's line. In fact in the past it was argued the other way around, that Matthew presented Mary's line. The honest answer is that both lines are made up.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Not just the True Reading. You also must take into consideration the True Book: Bible, Koran, etc.
At John 17:17 I find Jesus took into consideration the True Book: the Bible because Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth. Jesus backed that up by often referring to the old Hebrew Scriptures by prefacing his statement with the words, " it is written..." already written down in the O.T and explaining them for us.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I am wondering how you decided ' without Mary's consent ' - Luke 1:38 - when she consented.
Luke did trace Jesus' maternal lineage. Please notice the start or beginning of Jesus' line at Luke 3:38 - Adam.
That is from the record found at 1 Chronicles 1:1. (Matthew traces Jesus' paternal line )
In record, the 'son-in-law' was considered as son. So, at marriage Joseph as son-in-law was son of Heli.

By way of adoption Joseph was the father giving Jesus the legal right to the throne of David.
By fleshly physical birth Mary gave Jesus the inherited right to the throne of David.
That’s all just apologetics and unsubstantiated interpretations.

Plus, if Luke 1 narrative is true about Mary being closely related to Elizabeth, as kinswomen (1:36), then it is more probable that she was descendant of Aaron (1:5), not that of Nahshon, a descendant of Judah and who was contemporary of Moses and Aaron at that time, and therefore not of David.

At no time, was Mary explicitly said to be of the “House of David”, even in the gospel of Luke.

The gospel of Luke, never say anything about what her “house of” was, but her relative being Elizabeth, and Elizabeth being a descendant of Aaron, it would imply that she would be and could be a descendant of Aaron too.

Plus, whenever the gospels referred to Joseph, it always stated he was house of David, but never say Mary was of the house of David.

For instance, here...

“Luke 1:26-27” said:
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
The above quote never stated Mary herself was “of the house of David”.

All you have done, URAVIP2ME, is to twist the family tree in Luke 3, to say she was a daughter of Heli, and Joseph being a son-in-law to only Heli.

But if you actually understand Jewish custom of that time, it is always male lineage are mentioned. So it would be very odd to state and use “Joseph” in Mary’s family tree.

Not once was Mary ever mentioned being a descendant of David, or daughter of David. In fact, she was never directly link to any ancestor, but her link to Elizabeth does imply she was possibly linked to Aaron.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I am sure the legend of noah probably had its roots in localised flooding after the last ice age where several flood breaches occurred, eg the english channel, Gibraltar Straits and the flooding of the Black sea basin were all fairly recent events overlapping the time humans appeared and moved out of africa. Any of these events would have been catastrophic and appeared global because of the limited geographical perception of the inhabitants effected. An astute person of the time may have seen the breach about to occur and wisely built a boat with perhaps room for house farm animals and pets, but no koalas I notice. So I can see how survivor witnesses to this major catastrophic event (those who lived on any big Hill "Noah" could not see), would be told in stories over the generations gaining more and more fabrications as it turned from fact to legend.
To flood the and cover the entire planet, including Mt Everest, with so much water, would require a body of water approximating the size of the moon, so where did all this water go after the flood? So that concept is ridiculous.
Cheers
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I am wondering how you decided ' without Mary's consent ' - Luke 1:38 - when she consented.

26In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee, 27to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David. 28Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,1:28a Or Rejoice. favored woman! The Lord is with you!1:28b Some manuscripts add Blessed are you among women.”
29Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. 30“Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33And he will reign over Israel1:33 Greek over the house of Jacob.forever; his Kingdom will never end!”
34Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.”
35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. 36What’s more, your relative Elizabeth has become pregnant in her old age! People used to say she was barren, but she has conceived a son and is now in her sixth month. 37For the word of God will never fail.1:37 Some manuscripts read For nothing is impossible with God.”
38Mary responded, “I am the Lord’s servant. May everything you have said about me come true.” And then the angel left her.​


Consented? She is told, by superior forces, what is going to happen to her.
  • The Lord is with you!
  • for you have found favor with God!
  • You will conceive and give birth to a son,
  • the power of the Most High will overshadow you

Clearly she was...
Confused and disturbed,​
She really didn't understand what was happening...
Mary tried to think what the angel could mean.​
She expressed her fears...
But how can this happen? I am a virgin​


Finally she admits her servitude to her unknown masters...
Mary responded, “I am the Lord’s servant.​

That sure sounds a lot like rape. Just ask Harvey Weinstein.


Luke did trace Jesus' maternal lineage. Please notice the start or beginning of Jesus' line at Luke 3:38 - Adam.
That is from the record found at 1 Chronicles 1:1. (Matthew traces Jesus' paternal line )
In record, the 'son-in-law' was considered as son. So, at marriage Joseph as son-in-law was son of Heli.

By way of adoption Joseph was the father giving Jesus the legal right to the throne of David.
By fleshly physical birth Mary gave Jesus the inherited right to the throne of David.

NONSENSE. The entire lineage from Adam onward was a Paternal Blood lineage. There are no adoptions in the entire lineage. The son in law thing is nothing more than a futile attempt by bible writers to try to convince Jews that Jesus was the fulfillment of their stories. It mostly failed then, it fails now.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
At John 17:17 I find Jesus took into consideration the True Book: the Bible because Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth. Jesus backed that up by often referring to the old Hebrew Scriptures by prefacing his statement with the words, " it is written..." already written down in the O.T and explaining them for us.
I guess you don't think that Muslims have their reasons for believing they are right and you are wrong. Ditto any other religious group.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I am sure the legend of noah probably had its roots in localised flooding after the last ice age where several flood breaches occurred, eg the english channel, Gibraltar Straits and the flooding of the Black sea basin were all fairly recent events overlapping the time humans appeared and moved out of africa. Any of these events would have been catastrophic and appeared global because of the limited geographical perception of the inhabitants effected. An astute person of the time may have seen the breach about to occur and wisely built a boat with perhaps room for house farm animals and pets, but no koalas I notice. So I can see how survivor witnesses to this major catastrophic event (those who lived on any big Hill "Noah" could not see), would be told in stories over the generations gaining more and more fabrications as it turned from fact to legend.
To flood the and cover the entire planet, including Mt Everest, with so much water, would require a body of water approximating the size of the moon, so where did all this water go after the flood? So that concept is ridiculous.
Cheers
Or just a good hurricane or a tsunami.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I am sure the legend of noah probably had its roots in localised flooding after the last ice age where several flood breaches occurred, eg the english channel, Gibraltar Straits and the flooding of the Black sea basin were all fairly recent events overlapping the time humans appeared and moved out of africa. Any of these events would have been catastrophic and appeared global because of the limited geographical perception of the inhabitants effected.

Given the obvious parallels between the Genesis flood and the Babylonian myths it is fair to say that the Genesis myth has Babylonian roots. Babylon sat in the middle of the Fertile Crescent which got its name from the rich soils found in the flood plains of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers. The civilization existed on flood plains, so I don't think we need to look beyond the catastrophic flooding caused by the usual flooding of those rivers.

However, it is entirely possible that other cultures have flood stories that are rooted in catastrophic flooding caused by one time events following the last ice age.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I am sure the legend of noah probably had its roots in localised flooding after the last ice age where several flood breaches occurred, eg the english channel, Gibraltar Straits and the flooding of the Black sea basin were all fairly recent events overlapping the time humans appeared and moved out of africa. Any of these events would have been catastrophic and appeared global because of the limited geographical perception of the inhabitants effected. An astute person of the time may have seen the breach about to occur and wisely built a boat with perhaps room for house farm animals and pets, but no koalas I notice. So I can see how survivor witnesses to this major catastrophic event (those who lived on any big Hill "Noah" could not see), would be told in stories over the generations gaining more and more fabrications as it turned from fact to legend.
To flood the and cover the entire planet, including Mt Everest, with so much water, would require a body of water approximating the size of the moon, so where did all this water go after the flood? So that concept is ridiculous.
Cheers
Though the end of the last glaciation may have been the seed for many of the worldwide flood myths the Genesis flood may have more recent roots:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

EDIT: Pedantic mode on. We still are in an ice age. An ice age is when there are permanent large ice caps, as we have in Antarctica and Greenland. It has been going on for the last 5 million years or so. Don't worry, it appears that we have that fixed:rolleyes: Pedantic mode off.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
At John 17:17 I find Jesus took into consideration the True Book: the Bible because Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth. Jesus backed that up by often referring to the old Hebrew Scriptures by prefacing his statement with the words, " it is written..." already written down in the O.T and explaining them for us.

Ah so desu ka; religious truth. (Where does it say he said that?)

Religious truth is what? Different from true truth how?

Like German silver that is neither Grrman nor silver?

If so no wonder no two people get the same reading.

There was no flood: simple. So why did he go about lying,
if, that is, he really said that?

Weird way to be telling Truth, that nobody has figured
out in 2000 yrs.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Though the end of the last glaciation may have been the seed for many of the worldwide flood myths the Genesis flood may have more recent roots:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth

EDIT: Pedantic mode on. We still are in an ice age. An ice age is when there are permanent large ice caps, as we have in Antarctica and Greenland. It has been going on for the last 5 million years or so. Don't worry, it appears that we have that fixed:rolleyes: Pedantic mode off.
Make it half way through an interglacial period.

Next; glaciers push what is left of seattle into the
ocean.
 
Hello.

I believe that the Bible accurately records the event of a worldwide flood.

One example is that there are sea life fossils found in many places around the world where there is no way for the location to be under water unless the whole world was covered with water.

Also, I do believe the Bible tells us that both Mary and Joseph were { both }
descendants of King David.


Because already, We know that Mat 1:16 tells us that From King David - the line went on through the generations - Naming Eleazar, Matthan then on up to Jacob then Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus. So, we know that Mat. Chapter 1 is saying that Joseph is a descendant of King David.

The Subject of the entire Luke 3 genealogy is the continual historical style context in the Bible. The whole Chapter of Luke 3 is How Jesus came to be baptized during a such and such a time - He was 33 years of age - and under the current reigning Roman Governments listed and He was the adopted son of Joseph.

The Main subject is Jesus and John. And John was Jesus’s Cousin. John was giving such a detailed record of everything that was going on at that time. Listing the names of His very own genealogy right in one list, that list - was also the same exact genealogy of Jesus. John, of course, would not list His own father. And, because to keep the tradition, He kept it flowing through the Males in The list -


Making a point, to direct His very Own genealogy and the genealogy of Jesus through Mary, - who Mary had the Same Grandfather { Heli } as Him. John as well.


Mary was directly related to Johns Mother. Heli was the Grand FATHER of both Mary and both Elizabeth and they were cousins and Sisters all at once. Jesus and John were cousins with the same Grandfather, not the same father.
This is why John firstly named their grandfather - Heli who was father of Mary and Elizabeth. However, the Luke 3 genealogy is totally and completely another genealogy from the Matthew 1 genealogy.

Luke 3 begins with the naming of the first name as Heli,G2242 Then ,G3158 Levi,G3017 Melchi,G3197 Janna,G2388 Joseph,G2501 and on and on, back to King David and on back to Adam.......
Although the translators incorrectly mistranslated the verse, added The Phrase - " which was the son of _ " which was the son of “ ' over and over and over, over 30 times in this Luke 3 chapter. Luke 3:23 simply says AndG2532 JesusG2424 himselfG846 beganG756 to beG2258 aboutG5616 thirty years of age,G5144 G2094 beingG5607 (asG5613 was supposed)G3543 theG3588 sonG5207 of Joseph,G2501........ Then – what the manuscripts in fact - do Not say next - Is “ { which was the son of. } “

The dishonest Translators are linking Joseph as Son to the List of names by incorrectly adding the line - - " which was the son of _ " And then giving the Names in the genealogy, continuing to add this - " which was the son of _ " Line into the text, when it was never was there anywhere, in the entire Chapter.

.
Then ending the Luke 3 verse 23
Ending verse 23 and on to 24 - in the original manuscripts looks exactly as the following …….Heli, Matthat, Levi, Melchi, Janna, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, Naum, Esli, Nagge, Maath, Mattathias, Semei, Joseph, Juda, Joanna, Rhesa, Zorobabel, Salathiel, Neri, Melchi, Addi, Cosam, Elmodam, Er, Jose, Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi, Simeon, Juda, Joseph, Jonan, Eliakim, Melea, Menan, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Booz, Salmon, Naasson, Aminadab, Aram, Esrom, Phares, Juda, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Thara, Nachor, Saruch, Ragau, Phalec, Heber, Sala, Cainan, Arphaxad, Sem, Noe, Lamech, Mathusala, Enoch, Jared, Maleleel, Cainan, Enos, Seth, Adam, God.

This is from Mary and Elizabeth's father " Heli " back to Adam.

The manuscripts do not say - which was the son of. Between the list of each name given. Also - there is no phrase - which was the son of , at the ending of verse 23, which connects Joseph the Supposed Father Of Jesus, to verse 24's listed genealogy.

This is untruthful and really a lie in the translation. … – Which was the son of _- is what You see in the translation, but it is not in the Original whatsoever.
The Original Authors are immediately jumping right into the List in the manuscripts - To the naming of Mary’s genealogy " Beginning with Mary’s and Elisabeth’s father “ Heli “ We know this because we already have Josephs genealogy. And the authors usually, traditionally, always left out The Women.
Leaving out traditionally - The Person of Mary and - also the original authors left out the Phrases " Which was the son of "...... In Luke Chapter 3 - They are simply mentioning that Joseph was the = { SUPPOSED / THOUGHT OF } Father of Jesus. Here that the Authors are ( wanting The Reader to Know ) That Joseph was the Supposed / ( Thought OF ) Father of Jesus,


Then The Manuscripts immediately, suddenly end the story and { You could correctly say { Out of the Blue } or Unexpectedly } They begin to go right into the new subject of just simply the Listing of the full Genealogy of Mary. and excluded all females from the list - EVEN excluding MARY Herself.

The text jumps, Leaps and dives into listing all the males that brought in the other side of Jesus’s genealogy line - Through no one else possible - but Mary.
Joseph’s Genealogy has already been given. The Readers and Christians know that the only Genealogy Left to be given - Clearly is for the only other Choice possible. Mary. This Only other option, is Mary. The other Line of Jesus Genealogy.


I used to wonder about this until I researched the original Greek manuscripts that are different from the Trinitarian translations in many, many ways.
 
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