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How were the days in the Genesis account to be understood?

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
sorry, but the same person describing "a day" in the same text cannot be taken differently. the length of the 7th day will be the same as the other 6, however you interpret it.


I gave you two descriptions. The first was of a day of 24 hours, according to the Jewish need of a reason to justify the keeping of a commandment like resting in the Shabbat. Then, I described the six days of creation as a metaphorical period of thousands or millions of years. What am I missing?
 

sniper762

Well-Known Member
what your missing is that you cant have it both ways. either EACH OF ALL 7 days were literaly 24hr days, thousands or millions of years each or all were metaphorical.

many believe, as i do, that its been app. 6000 years since adam's creation on the 6th day. so if god rested on the 7th day, there is no way that the days length (all 7 being the same) could be longer than that, correct?

please give an example of how if opposed.
 

BigRed

Member
Do you think they were meant to be understood as 24 hr days or rather an expression or figure of speech, one that signifies an indefinite period of time?

The day had to be a very short period like 24 hours.
Here is the proof......
Genesis 1:12-14 (New American Standard Bible)

12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.


13There was evening and there was morning, a third day. 14Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

God Planted the vegetation on the third day. But he didn't create the sun until the fourth day. We all know that plants need Sun Light for photosynthesis. Without the Sun the plants would die. So if the days were very long the plants would have died without the Sun.

BigRed
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
what your missing is that you cant have it both ways. either EACH OF ALL 7 days were literaly 24hr days, thousands or millions of years each or all were metaphorical.

many believe, as i do, that its been app. 6000 years since adam's creation on the 6th day. so if god rested on the 7th day, there is no way that the days length (all 7 being the same) could be longer than that, correct?

please give an example of how if opposed.


The whole Genesis account of Creation is simply a huge allegory, which one can interpret metaphorically, as follows:

+The Double Allegory of Creation+
There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.


The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

The second allegory has still the same elements and God is still figured anthropomorphically, but the meaning of the actions and behaviour depicts a more logical version of what happened in the Garden. And here abide those who can think more logically, abbeit not in the archtype level of Reality. In this phase of the account of Creation in Genesis, after God created Adam and Eve, He granted them with freewill and expected to be served and sought after by them, but the thing was not working. God would have to search for them and that was not the right method. They would have to become proficient and leave the Garden in order to seek for God in terms of growing in knowledge out in the greater world.

Then, among the many fruit trees in the Garden, God planted a most beautiful of all the trees with fruits much more alluring, and right in the middle of the Garden, so that it would easily call their attention. It was the tree of knowledge. But it was not working. Then, God told them that the fruit of that tree was forbidden under penalty of death, but just in the hope that the warning would make them curious and go for it. It was not working either.

Nex, God doubled in Eve the emotion of curiosity so that she would go for it and entice Adam into eating of that tree. However, God had underestimated Eve's emotion of love. She had fallen in love with her man and she would never risk loosing him for no stupid fruit even if it looked the most appetitizing of all. Obviously, it didn't work.

The next step was to use the services of the serpent to persuade Eve that she had misunderstood the prohibition. That what would die in them was not themselves but their stupid innocence and naivete. Then, the serpent showed up on the very tree and somehow called for Eve's attention. As she approached, the dialogue started. To instigate the conversation, the serpent started with a question which surely would require an explanation. "Is it that you guys cannot eat from the trees in the Garden?" Bingo! Eve was locked in. The serpent got Eve to talk by explaining that only from the tree of knowledge, they were forbidden. "Why?" the serpent retortted. "Because we would die," she said. "Nonsense!" said the serpent. "You have misunderstood the whole thing. God meant to say that you two will become like gods, knowing good from evil." Without much ado, Eve reached for the fruit, ate it and told Adam that it was okay. Adam thought for a second and came to the conclusion that even if it was not okay, he would rather die with her beloved who had just enjoyed half of a fruit. Then he ate the other half and went on eating more. The serpent was right. They did not die. And the first knowledge they acquired was of how much they did not know. I mean, that they were naked, completely destitute of knowledge.

It didn't take too long for God to appear in the Garden to collect the fruit of His enterprise. It had finally happened what He wanted without His having to do anything against man's freewill. Then, He formally defined some punishments to everyone according to their nature anyway, and got them out of the Garden into the greater world out there, so that they would grow in knowledge by seeking for God, which would be the right method.

Now, the third phase or Reality, the account of Creation is supposed to point to. I mean, the Humanistic approach, which is the purpose of the double allegory. The riddle points to the three phases in the development of man: Childhood, adulthood, and old age. Here, only the enlightened with Philosophical training dwells. I mean, the Theist who is big enough not to let him or herself be intoxicated by blind faith. In this class we can find also Atheists and Agnostics but under the subclass of sarchasm for not being able to harmonize enlightenment with the conception of God free of anthropomorphism.

Childhood is understood by that phase in the Garden when God would have to provide man with everything. That's the phase when we are dependent on our parents or on others for all our needs. That's the phase of walking on our four legs.

Adulthood is applied to that time when man ate of the tree of knowledge and became conscious of himself. That's when we actually become an adult and responsible for our own actions. I mean, when we can stand on our own two legs, so to speak.

Regarding the phase of old age, the allegory of Creation does not go into details, but it's when we become dependent again on others, especailly our children to take
care of us. I mean, the phase of walking on two legs and a cane.


Ben
 

iholdit

Active Member
Do you think they were meant to be understood as 24 hr days or rather an expression or figure of speech, one that signifies an indefinite period of time?

I didnt read all 11 pages of the thread so if someone already mentioned this forgive me.
Time depends on speed. So if the creator were traveling at a very fast speed while creating the universe and everything in it. Then to the creator 6 days could have past where as to the creation not traveling at that speed it could have taken billions of years.
So the universe could have been created in a literal 6 days and a literal billions of years based on how time works. Both a literal 6 days and a literal billions of years could be completely accurate timeframes without contradicting eachother.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Do you think they were meant to be understood as 24 hr days or rather an expression or figure of speech, one that signifies an indefinite period of time?
I believe the signify indefinite periods of time, not necessarily equal in length.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
I have recently taken a seminar by Professor Gary A. Rendsburg, he servers as chair of Department of Jewish Studies at Rutgers University. His explanation of the creation stores was very enlightening. I will try and summarize his thoughts.
First: The first story focused on Cosmocentric (cosmos) , the second Anthropocentric (man). It is obvious that both stories were written by different authors due to the differences in them.
Second: The purpose of these stories was for demythologizing (his word) from the many polytheistic creation stories that were present in the Ancient Near East (Enuma Elish for one) and make them acceptable to Ancient Jewish audiences who were monotheistic(to a point)

Now the text indicates that the earth was not formed ex nihilo. Genesis 1 describes God's bringing order out of chaos, not creation from nothingness. The reference to "Let there be light" is symbolic of good, antithesis of darkness(evil). Now in reference to the order of creation of plants, animals, human. Remember this story is being told to an ancient Jewish civilization that does not know all of the present day knowledge about why things grow. The sun and moon are described as greater and lesser light because the Canaanites and Jewish people had the same language, just a different dialect. The semantic word for sun and moon was the same; However, the Canaanites used the same word for their sun and moon deities. For example Shemesh is the word for sun but Canaanites used it as sun-god. There is no way a Jewish redactor was going to allow pagan words in this story. Now about the days, Jewish Laws say you must not do any work on the Shabbat(Sabbath) which is the seventh day. God is not going to work on the Shabbat so you had to have 7 days to complete His work. Oh, FYI if you notice the 7th day is called Holly not Saturday because again the Canaanite word for their plant deities were the same as the day of the week Saturn (Saturday). So it is really immaterial about time, order of creation, just enjoy the story telling as if you were an ancient Jewish listener/reader.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
I fail to see how any one can seriously debate the "Creation" in Genesis as if it were supported by scientific fact, or was any way a concept with a base in reality.

If faith has to depend on fables and primitive suppositions as if they were true, It would result in a Faith with no substance, and no reality.

No wonder so many have turned away from the Church.

Churches should face the facts, and Teach the messages to be derived from these Fables, not teach them as if they had some reality.
Well, they at least should admit they don't know the reality intended by the Author. I agree they make a mockery of God's Word when they make rediculous assumptions and then speak as if their interpretations are infallible.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
The keys to properly understand the creation account in Genesis are found scattered throughout holy writ. They are open for all to find and enjoy. No metaphors need to be invented and imposed upon the text. They are explicitly manifest in the text itself and are not even veiled. What keeps them hidden is the false traditions and precepts of men that blind people from considering the simple truth of it all. Learning these keys enables a person to understand how it all relates to mankind in a practical way. People want it to be super-fantastic miraculous out-of-this-world cool and spurn the simplicity of it all.

Many people take the metaphor as the literal message and invent all kinds of painful logic and non-sense to hold to that perspective. I was steered into this as a youth and I found it to be painful and torturous and finally resolved that it was wrong.

Many people have various bits and pieces but so far as I can tell there are only a very small handful of individuals in all of time that seemed to have cracked it wide open and could freely drink the waters from this well of knowledge.

I know for certain Jesus drew from this well. Paul the apostle and some of the other apostles also show much evidence of doing so. The Mormon prophet Joseph Smith Jun. also tapped into this well but nobody else after him in this religion seemed to catch on and Mormonism has rapidly delapidated into a tangled mess of "just follow the profit", uh "prophet" who has the duty to "be like unto Moses" but is nothing of the sort. "Pharoah" is LDS Inc.'s "good ole boy" buddy pal.

Another natural deterrent from truly understanding the creation account is when you do know how to read it, what you read makes you utterly ill as it shatters so much of what you were taught as a child and want to be true but isn't. You also start to understand how God really views who is doing what down here and what direction people are heading themselves in for their future afterlife, including knowing what their afterlife shall be like. It contains VERY, VERY, VERY bad news for many people who are totally clueless about what is coming to them and think just the opposite for themselves. For people who view religion as simply an annoyance, they will go on much as they do here just doing what they can on their own. But, those who join religions and make covenants and then make a mockery of things, they are in deep trouble. Do NOT join a religion unless you are absolutely sincere and uphold your covenants with integrity. It would have been better for them if they had never been born than to be a person who corrupts, twists and uses religion in a way that is offensive to God. Thus, most people professing a covenantal religion with the God of Abraham right now are in serious trouble. They won't want to see the basis for this. It will just be too terribly painful for them to contemplate. They will lose spouses, families, jobs, friends, etc.

For example, current mainstream Mormons will quickly come to realize their church has become beguiled and fallen and that they are currently the manifestation of Cain who murdered his brother Abel. Therefore, in large part, most all mainstream Mormons are headed to what they call Perdition or "outer darkness" in their resurrection, which is the worst possible level of condemnation that God ordains people to. The only ones who won't be condemned in that manner are the ones who quietly keep to themselves the knowledge of how and where things have gone way off track and they avoid being a party to it. Otherwise, they will have the innocent blood of their brother Abel on their hands in the Day of Judgment.
 
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kylixguru

Well-Known Member
If the general understanding is that, first God created the earth, then after some days, He created human , then why would Gen. 2:4 says that generations of people were created, in the same day that God made the earth and heavens?


2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"
These = Elements of Creation. (Just described to manifest over 7 periods of one Day each.)

Generations = People.

So, the point of this phrase is to tell us that:
Elements of Creation ARE People.
Have a nice day!
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I have recently taken a seminar by Professor Gary A. Rendsburg, he servers as chair of Department of Jewish Studies at Rutgers University. His explanation of the creation stores was very enlightening. I will try and summarize his thoughts.
First: The first story focused on Cosmocentric (cosmos) , the second Anthropocentric (man). It is obvious that both stories were written by different authors due to the differences in them.
Second: The purpose of these stories was for demythologizing (his word) from the many polytheistic creation stories that were present in the Ancient Near East (Enuma Elish for one) and make them acceptable to Ancient Jewish audiences who were monotheistic(to a point)
Now the text indicates that the earth was not formed ex nihilo. Genesis 1 describes God's bringing order out of chaos, not creation from nothingness. The reference to "Let there be light" is symbolic of good, antithesis of darkness(evil). Now in reference to the order of creation of plants, animals, human. Remember this story is being told to an ancient Jewish civilization that does not know all of the present day knowledge about why things grow. The sun and moon are described as greater and lesser light because the Canaanites and Jewish people had the same language, just a different dialect. The semantic word for sun and moon was the same; However, the Canaanites used the same word for their sun and moon deities. For example Shemesh is the word for sun but Canaanites used it as sun-god. There is no way a Jewish redactor was going to allow pagan words in this story. Now about the days, Jewish Laws say you must not do any work on the Shabbat(Sabbath) which is the seventh day. God is not going to work on the Shabbat so you had to have 7 days to complete His work. Oh, FYI if you notice the 7th day is called Holly not Saturday because again the Canaanite word for their plant deities were the same as the day of the week Saturn (Saturday). So it is really immaterial about time, order of creation, just enjoy the story telling as if you were an ancient Jewish listener/reader.

Yes, Gen 1v1 to 2v4 is dealing with [cosmos], creation of heaven and earth and all in them. Gen 2v5 to 4v6 concentrates on the creation of the human race [man] and his downfall into sin.

Moses is given credit for Genesis and the reason for a second or contributing author is because of the 'book of generations' or history by Adam. -Gen 5v1
That 'book' could easily be in connection to Gen 2v4 also mentioning another 'book' the 'generations' or history. So Moses could have easily at that time frame still had pre-Flood records that were taken on Noah's Ark.

Unlike the 6 creative days, the 7th day has no closing.
According to Hebrews 4vs 4-10 the 7th day was still on going in Paul's day.
Since Pentecost, the Sabbath rest is no longer in effect.

Constantine, not Scripture, made 'Sunday' a rest day for all [except farmers]
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So Moses could have easily at that time frame still had pre-Flood records that were taken on Noah's Ark.

except for a few minor details

they had no written language at that time, they were still writing on stone. Not because they had no paper, they lacked a language in which to do so.

there was never a noahs ark, it is a story stolen from sumerians the way the hebrews stole hades from the greeks. the hebrews used many previous pagan myths in all there early beliefs
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
except for a few minor details
they had no written language at that time, they were still writing on stone. Not because they had no paper, they lacked a language in which to do so.
there was never a noahs ark, it is a story stolen from sumerians the way the hebrews stole hades from the greeks. the hebrews used many previous pagan myths in all there early beliefs

If Adam had no language, then how could he name the animals?
-Gen 2v19

The only pre-Flood artifacts would be clay or stone because paper would have dissolved in the Flood waters.

How do you account for all of the world's many Flood legends?
Communication between countries would have not been rapid as today.

It doesn't rhyme in English, but Adam spoke poetry to Eve at Gen 2v23.

Eve perfectly understood by her answer to the serpent at Gen 3vs2,3.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If Adam had no language, then how could he name the animals?

lets try reading first before you debate about what you do not know

i stated written language, the oldest we have is around 1000BC and then before that there is no hebrew written language

by the way adam was stolen from the sumerian creation story, they called there first man adamu who came from the dirt. they were a pagan culture by the way with many gods

The only pre-Flood artifacts would be clay or stone because paper would have dissolved in the Flood waters.

there was never a worldwide flood that covered the earth. this is a fact.

How do you account for all of the world's many Flood legends?

there is a flodd every year on this planet

noahs story was stolen from sumerians when the euphrates flooded in 2900BC a man with a few animals got on a barge amnd went out to see and came a shore and survived while everwhere around him was death and destruction.

It doesn't rhyme in English, but Adam spoke poetry to Eve at Gen 2v23

this is fiction from early hebrew writings

Eve perfectly understood by her answer to the serpent at Gen 3vs2,3.

ever seen a talking snake?
 
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