How were the days in the Genesis account to be understood?

[james2ko]

The passing of a 24hr period of time in the OT was expressed with 'evening to evening'...or occasionally 'morning to morning'.
The phrase in Genesis 1 is completely different and clearly indicates something other than a 24hr passage of time.

Gen 1:5 And GodH430 calledH7121 the lightH216 Day,H3117 and the darknessH2822 he calledH7121 Night.H3915 And the eveningH6153 and the morningH1242 wereH1961 the firstH259 day.H3117

Dan 8:14 And he saidH559 untoH413 me, UntoH5704 two thousandH505 and threeH7969 hundredH3967 days;H6153 H1242 then shall the sanctuaryH6944 be cleansed.H6663​

The same Hebrew idiom "evening and morning" used in Gen 1:5 is also used to describe the 2300 literal 24 hr periods in Dan 8:14! 2300 days amounts to 6 years 3 months and 18 days. Historical evidence confirms this as the amount of time, almost to the day, between the ceasing of the sacrifices and their restoration! This confirms the Spirit who inspired the author of Genesis to use "evening and morning" is the same Spirit who inspired Daniel to use the exact same words to mean a literal 24 hr period!

Cosmology fits with the Biblical description in all locations - thus, when cosmology tells us that the earth was spinning about its axis at a much higher rate in the past, and that the earth is slowing down today, then you really have nothing to stand on...

All I need is scripture as my "crutch"

You have not provided any scientific evidence for a 24hr creation day.

Scientific is simply defined as, "of or pertaining to science or the sciences." Post #9 contains the order in which creation followed the laws of science which affirm the theory of long creation days as pure fallacy.

Nope.

If you want anyone to take your arguments seriously, I would advise against using one word colloqualisms as your rebuttal. It displays undesirable qualities which destroy credibility.

Your knowledge of scripture and science is weak at best...

I admit I'm no scientist but my "wild guess" is neither are you. As far as scripture, a simple glance at the evidence you've presented versus mine would render this statement rather comical.

 

[Bowman]

Gen 1:5 And GodH430 calledH7121 the lightH216 Day,H3117 and the darknessH2822 he calledH7121 Night.H3915 And the eveningH6153 and the morningH1242 wereH1961 the firstH259 day.H3117

Dan 8:14 And he saidH559 untoH413 me, UntoH5704 two thousandH505 and threeH7969 hundredH3967 days;H6153 H1242 then shall the sanctuaryH6944 be cleansed.H6663
​

The same Hebrew idiom "evening and morning" used in Gen 1:5 is also used to describe the 2300 literal 24 hr periods in Dan 8:14! 2300 days amounts to 6 years 3 months and 18 days. Historical evidence confirms this as the amount of time, almost to the day, between the ceasing of the sacrifices and their restoration! This confirms the Spirit who inspired the author of Genesis to use "evening and morning" is the same Spirit who inspired Daniel to use the exact same words to mean a literal 24 hr period!

The Hebrew word yom does not even make its appearance in this verse of Daniel, brother.

Try again…

Scientific is simply defined as, "of or pertaining to science or the sciences." Post #9 contains the order in which creation followed the laws of science which affirm the theory of long creation days as pure fallacy.

Let’s review your post #9…

Notice how the creation week followed the laws of science. At dawn the first day, light penetrated the dense clouds.

Light from the already created sun.

As it grew warmer the clouds rose the second day and an expanse or heaven was formed, the one in which the birds fly. Thus the waters on the earth were separated from the water-laden clouds above.

The earth’s atmosphere and water cycle are established on creation ‘day 2’.

The ocean receded, dry land appeared and grass and herbs were planted the third day.

Agreed.

A mist watered them and as the fourth day progressed the sun became visible through the thinning clouds.

Agreed.

Toward the evening the moon and stars appeared.

‘Toward the evening’, brother….?

Nope.

These are not 24hr periods of time.

Birds and sea life were created the fifth day, the land animals with Adam and Eve the sixth, and a day of rest and worship for the man the seventh.

And the seventh day continues until today….

Consider the plants which were created on the third day. The sun did not appear until the next day.

Nope.

The sun was already shining on ‘day 1’.

You already stated that ‘light penetrated the dense clouds’, on the first day.

Have you already forgotten what you said….?

If these "days" were each 1000 years long then these plants would have had to survive 1000 years without sunshine!

Again…the sun was already shining, brother….read what you wrote…

Or consider this, plants were made the third day, insects on the sixth. How did certain specialized plants continue to exist 3,000 years without their insect partners to pollinate them?

Where do you get ‘specialized plants’ from…?

Now...where is your 'science' that matches what you just said...?

I admit I'm no scientist but my "wild guess" is neither are you. As far as scripture, a simple glance at the evidence you've presented versus mine would render this statement rather comical.

Not only are you not a scientist, but you are not a scholar, either…

 

[james2ko]

The Hebrew word yom does not even make its appearance in this verse of Daniel, brother.

The word for day is missing because it was implicated by the words evening and morning followed by a number. This combination in scripture always refers to a literal 24 hr period or day--just like I've proven....ohh......lets see .....three times now?

So can you please provide an explanation why the same words for evening and morning with a number (first, second, etc) which appear in Genesis 1:5, also appear as evening and morning with the number 2300 in Dan 8:14? And what is its interpretation?

Light from the already created sun.

The sun was shining but its light had yet to reach the earth's surface because there was none at this point of the creation process.

Toward the evening’, brother….? Nope.These are not 24hr periods of time. And the seventh day continues until today

You're entitled to your beloved private interpretations.

The sun was already shining on ‘day 1’.
You already stated that ‘light penetrated the dense clouds’, on the first day. Have you already forgotten what you said….?Again…the sun was already shining, brother….read what you wrote…

Not at all.--already shining in outer space on day 1--but not yet shining on the surface of the earth. Its light penetrated or entered the clouds but the clouds did not dissipate until day four, after which the light finally reached the earth's surface (Gen 1:15).

Where do you get ‘specialized plants’ from…

Our wonderful Creator made certain plants to be pollinized by insects. That makes them special in my book, wouldn't you agree?

Now...where is your 'science' that matches what you just said...?

Do I really need a scientific explanation as to why pollinized plants cannot live 3,000 years without being pollinated?

Perhaps you could help me understand something, how long do you believe are the days of creation?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It has to be metaphoric and parables. It's not literal at all, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
Consider, on the third day, it says, earth yielded fruits. But the grass and trees require light of the sun to grow. How is it possible that fruit was yielded before the Sun was created on the fourth day? Also, the grass and fruit does not grow in only one day, it takes time!
On the third Day:
"...grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit..." 1:13

on the fourth Day:

“…And God made two great lights..” 1:16

 

[james2ko]

It has to be metaphoric and parables. It's not literal at all, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
Consider, on the third day, it says, earth yielded fruits. But the grass and trees require light of the sun to grow. How is it possible that fruit was yielded before the Sun was created on the fourth day? Also, the grass and fruit does not grow in only one day, it takes time!
On the third Day:
"...grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit..." 1:13

on the fourth Day:

“…And God made two great lights..” 1:16

Sure it does.

The sun was in orbit from day one (Gen 1:3-5). As you pointed out, plant life was created on the third. The earth was covered with clouds which the heat of the sun finally dissipated on the fourth day. This allowed the sunlight to finally reach the surface of the earth (Gen 1:17). Surely they could survive a mere 24 hrs without direct sunlight.

 

[Bowman]

The word for day is missing because it was implicated by the words evening and morning followed by a number.

Nope.

The term yom is missing because the construction and meaning of the verse is completely different.

This combination in scripture always refers to a literal 24 hr period or day--just like I've proven....ohh......lets see .....three times now?

Nope.

There is no classic Hebrew grammar which states a cardinal or ordinal yom combination would refer to a 24hr day.

Zero.

Further, we have already provided an example which plainly refutes your merit-less assertion.

So can you please provide an explanation why the same words for evening and morning with a number (first, second, etc) which appear in Genesis 1:5, also appear as evening and morning with the number 2300 in Dan 8:14? And what is its interpretation?

The term yom is not present in Daniel 8.14, brother.
The Hebrew construction is completely different.

The sun was shining but its light had yet to reach the earth's surface because there was none at this point of the creation process.

Nope.
The entire Genesis narrative is from the vantage point of the surface of the earth. Thus, there was already light making to the surface of the earth on ‘Day 1’.

Not at all.--already shining in outer space on day 1--but not yet shining on the surface of the earth. Its light penetrated or entered the clouds but the clouds did not dissipate until day four, after which the light finally reached the earth's surface (Gen 1:15).

Nope.
Again, the entire Genesis narrative is from the vantage point of the surface of the earth.

Our wonderful Creator made certain plants to be pollinized by insects. That makes them special in my book, wouldn't you agree?

Show us the Hebrew words which support your assertion.

Perhaps you could help me understand something, how long do you believe are the days of creation?

They are epochs of time.
Millions and even billions of years in duration.

 

[Bowman]

It has to be metaphoric and parables. It's not literal at all, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
Consider, on the third day, it says, earth yielded fruits. But the grass and trees require light of the sun to grow. How is it possible that fruit was yielded before the Sun was created on the fourth day? Also, the grass and fruit does not grow in only one day, it takes time!
On the third Day:
"...grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit..." 1:13

on the fourth Day:

“…And God made two great lights..” 1:16

The ignorance of those who fail to study the original languages.

Our sun was created before 'day 1'...of which, is mentioned in the beginning of Genesis.

The creation verbs employed on .Day 4' signify our atmosphere changing from opaque to translucent
.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It has to be metaphoric and parables. It's not literal at all, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
Consider, on the third day, it says, earth yielded fruits. But the grass and trees require light of the sun to grow. How is it possible that fruit was yielded before the Sun was created on the fourth day? Also, the grass and fruit does not grow in only one day, it takes time!
On the third Day:
"...grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit..." 1:13

on the fourth Day:

“…And God made two great lights..” 1:16

Isn't there a difference between the words: 'made' and 'create'?

Parents can 'create' a child.
The already created child can be 'made' to do something like go to school.

So, first God 'created' the light. Then God 'made' the already existing created light to do something. God made the created light to rule in day four.

 

[Pegg]

My way of looking at it is that the Biblical world and the natural world are not reconcilable.

it can be reconciled fairly easily by understanding that the hebrew word 'YOM' which is translated to 'day' in genesis, has more then one meaning.

it can mean very long periods of time as in 'ages' or 'eons'

We understand that each creative 'day' was more like an 'age' spanning a very long time. I dont know how long exactly because an 'age' is a general term for 'time' of any duration.

So basically, genesis to us presents 6 creative ages.

 

[james2ko]

The ignorance of those who fail to study the original languages.

Our sun was created before 'day 1'...of which, is mentioned in the beginning of Genesis.

The creation verbs employed on .Day 4' signify our atmosphere changing from opaque to translucent

.
If our atmosphere was opaque (impenetrable to light) before day 4 as you imply, could you please explain the contradictory statement you made in post #26?

The entire Genesis narrative is from the vantage point of the surface of the earth. Thus, there was already light making to the surface of the earth on ‘Day 1’.

 

[james2ko]

The term yom is missing because the construction and meaning of the verse is completely different. The term yom is not present in Daniel 8.14, brother. The Hebrew construction is completely different.

You did not answer the question all you are saying is, "I don't know what Dan 8:14 means but I know it doesn't mean what you think it means."

There is no classic Hebrew grammar which states a cardinal or ordinal yom combination would refer to a 24hr day. Further, we have already provided an example which plainly refutes your merit-less assertion.

May I remind you Hosea 6:2 was counter-refuted in post #13.

The entire Genesis narrative is from the vantage point of the surface of the earth. Thus, there was already light making to the surface of the earth on ‘Day 1’.

Read the account carefully. There was no surface or dry land until day 3 (Gen 1:9). Before then, it was all water (Gen 1:2) until He divided the atmosphere from the water in Gen 1:7-8. There is no indication light reached dry land until the fourth day! (Gen 1:15). Which, by the way, you strangely confirmed in post 27. (also see post #30)

The creation verbs employed on .Day 4' signify our atmosphere changing from opaque to translucent

Show us the Hebrew words which support your assertion.

Show you the Hebrew words that explain the scientific fact why only certain plants can be pollinized by insects?????

They are epochs of time. Millions and even billions of years in duration.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say, for the sake of argument, that each day was a million years in duration. You agreed back in post#22 the days of creation followed the laws of science. You agreed plant life was created on the third day and insects on the sixth. Could you please explain to us how certain plants continued to exist 3 million years without their insect partners to pollinate them?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I look at it as I look at all Stone/Bronze Age Fables.

However those ancient people were as intelligent as we are to day.
You can find much truth in their view of the nature of man, but almost nothing of value in their scientific knowledge.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Isn't there a difference between the words: 'made' and 'create'?

Parents can 'create' a child.
The already created child can be 'made' to do something like go to school.

So, first God 'created' the light. Then God 'made' the already existing created light to do something. God made the created light to rule in day four.

Yes, I agree. "made" and "created" can mean 2 different things.
However, in the case of the Sun, once it was created, then right away it would produce light and heat. It is in the nature of the Sun to produce the heat and light.
Then this light and heat would reach the earth which is necessary for life.
Now, in the case children, they have intelligence and can be made to do different things.
In the case of the Sun, it has no intelligence to do anything more than producing light and heat. So, I am not sure for the case of the Sun, how 'made' and "created" can be any different.

farther more, how the sun which has no intelligence, rule the earth?

To rule, would mean, to order. When someone has a higher level of station, then he would define the laws, and orders others to follow.
As Christ was the Ruler, since He had the words of God, and Laws and orders.
(I am not arguing about the truth of these verses, but, in my understanding it should be interpreted and related to something else, which I will post that later)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sure it does.

The sun was in orbit from day one (Gen 1:3-5). As you pointed out, plant life was created on the third. The earth was covered with clouds which the heat of the sun finally dissipated on the fourth day. This allowed the sunlight to finally reach the surface of the earth (Gen 1:17). Surely they could survive a mere 24 hrs without direct sunlight.

Even then, wouldn't you say, for the trees to yield fruits, it would take more than a day (24 hours)?
because, it doesn't say that God put the trees on earth, while the fruits were on the trees. It says the tree 'yielded' fruits. and we know from our regular seasons, first the trees, must yield blossoms, then the blossoms turn to fruits gradually. All these in one day?
or even the trees, themselves take time to grow enough to become mature enough to produce fruits.

 

[Bowman]

.
If our atmosphere was opaque (impenetrable to light) before day 4 as you imply, could you please explain the contradictory statement you made in post #26?

From the vantage point of the surface of the earth, Genesis describes that it went from total darkness to translucent to completely transparent on creation 'Day 4' such that the luminaries were visible from the surface of the earth.

 

[Bowman]

You did not answer the question all you are saying is, "I don't know what Dan 8:14 means but I know it doesn't mean what you think it means."

Nope.

Daniel 8.14 is your example…and, as such, you would need to show a classic Hebrew rule of grammar for your position.

Good luck…

May I remind you Hosea 6:2 was counter-refuted in post #13.

No.

It was not.

Read the account carefully. There was no surface or dry land until day 3 (Gen 1:9). Before then, it was all water (Gen 1:2) until He divided the atmosphere from the water in Gen 1:7-8. There is no indication light reached dry land until the fourth day! (Gen 1:15). Which, by the way, you strangely confirmed in post 27. (also see post #30)

The ‘surface’ of the earth was water, brother.

Show you the Hebrew words that explain the scientific fact why only certain plants can be pollinized by insects?????



I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say, for the sake of argument, that each day was a million years in duration. You agreed back in post#22 the days of creation followed the laws of science. You agreed plant life was created on the third day and insects on the sixth. Could you please explain to us how certain plants continued to exist 3 million years without their insect partners to pollinate them?

Show the Hebrew word(s) that you want to represent your specialized plants requiring cross-pollinization.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If the general understanding is that, first God created the earth, then after some days, He created human , then why would Gen. 2:4 says that generations of people were created, in the same day that God made the earth and heavens?


2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"

 

[james2ko]

Nope. Daniel 8.14 is your example…and, as such, you would need to show a classic Hebrew rule of grammar for your position. Good luck…

"Ereb" and "boqer" [evening and morning] are translated as plurals if the context makes it clear that this is necessary. In the case of Dan 8:14, ereb and boqer are modified by the number "2,300" - an obvious indication that the plural should be used. However, there is no such modication in Gen 1, or any other contextual data to suggest that these words should be translated as plurals. In fact, the context demands a singular translation, since the verb "wayehi" is singular so "ereb" and "boqer" must also be singular. (A Summary of Evidence for Literal 24-hr Creation Days in Genesis 1.by Andrew S. Kulikovsky B.App.Sc(Hons) MA (candidate)​

In other words in Genesis 1, Ereb and boqer are referring to a single yom or day! I guess today is my "lucky Yom"

I accommodated your request now please answer my question:

Please provide an explanation why the same words for evening and morning with a number (first, second, etc) which appear in Genesis 1:5, also appear as evening and morning with the number 2300 in Dan 8:14? And what is its interpretation?

No. It was not.

Good answer....Good answer...Ever watch Family Feud?

Show the Hebrew word(s) that you want to represent your specialized plants requiring cross-pollinization.

Once again you dodged another question this time with a nonsensical diversion. Here it is again:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say, for the sake of argument, that each day was a million years in duration. You agreed back in post#22 the days of creation followed the laws of science. You agreed plant life was created on the third day and insects on the sixth. Could you please explain to us how certain plants continued to exist 3 million years without their insect partners to pollinate them?

 

[james2ko]

Even then, wouldn't you say, for the trees to yield fruits, it would take more than a day (24 hours)?
because, it doesn't say that God put the trees on earth, while the fruits were on the trees. It says the tree 'yielded' fruits. and we know from our regular seasons, first the trees, must yield blossoms, then the blossoms turn to fruits gradually. All these in one day?
or even the trees, themselves take time to grow enough to become mature enough to produce fruits.

The textual implication would seem to indicate that all species of life were created in their mature state. By comparison, it would not be plausible to conclude Adam was created as an infant then somehow nourished himself through his weaning years and survived to become an adult.

 

[Bowman]

If the general understanding is that, first God created the earth, then after some days, He created human , then why would Gen. 2:4 says that generations of people were created, in the same day that God made the earth and heavens?


2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"

Not generations of people, but the generations that took to complete creation.

Obviously the 24hr paradigm does not fit this verse, either.