Human cruelty

[Nimos]

So yesterday I for some reason thought about humans and our ability to kill each other. I mean if we can say one thing about the human species and creativity, it must be that when it comes to that, we must be close the best in the Universe, everything from sticks to bombs that can kill everything on the planet and everything in between, in such a short amount of time, is pretty damn impressive

Obviously we can't hide that we often end up killing each other due to whatever reason. But I remember reading about medieval torturing devices, which oddly seems to not only been designed to kill people, but to actually try to maximize the cruelty that you could inflict on the person. As part of the explanation for this on this page (Link below), is that they wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and get people to confess to something.

But what I don't really get is, that they almost seem to be design to also sort of make a show or competition out of it, like how bad or cruel can we possible make these things.
Now I don't want to turn this into a religious thing, despite a lot of them were used in regards to this, but then again, religion were the norm, and I don't really doubt for a second that even without religion that it could have happened as well due to other reasons, so please try to keep religion out of it, unless you truly believe that it could only be caused by this.

But I just can't help thinking what on Earth went through people's head back then? How their view on other humans must have been like, that they could watch these things thinking well "the ******* deserved it", or what the hell they thought. Because some of these devices/machines are designed like extreme adult toys or what to say. Where you don't really get the impression that they were even interested in a confession, compared to simply causing as much pain and suffering to the victim as they could possible imagine.

I would be very interested in knowing more about what the heck was going through people's head back then, so if anyone knows or have studied this or just have some thoughts about it, I would be interested in hearing it?

These Medieval Torture Devices and Methods That Date Back to the Ancient World

 

[pearl]

As part of the explanation for this on this page (Link below), is that they wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and get people to confess to something.

I think that about sums it up. Also to provide an example for others not to try. Nothing exemplifies this as Mel Gibson's 'Braveheart', or the actions of a few American military guards at an Iraqi prison etc.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So yesterday I for some reason thought about humans and our ability to kill each other. I mean if we can say one thing about the human species and creativity, it must be that when it comes to that, we must be close the best in the Universe, everything from sticks to bombs that can kill everything on the planet and everything in between, in such a short amount of time, is pretty damn impressive

Obviously we can't hide that we often end up killing each other due to whatever reason. But I remember reading about medieval torturing devices, which oddly seems to not only been designed to kill people, but to actually try to maximize the cruelty that you could inflict on the person. As part of the explanation for this on this page (Link below), is that they wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and get people to confess to something.

But what I don't really get is, that they almost seem to be design to also sort of make a show or competition out of it, like how bad or cruel can we possible make these things.
Now I don't want to turn this into a religious thing, despite a lot of them were used in regards to this, but then again, religion were the norm, and I don't really doubt for a second that even without religion that it could have happened as well due to other reasons, so please try to keep religion out of it, unless you truly believe that it could only be caused by this.

But I just can't help thinking what on Earth went through people's head back then? How their view on other humans must have been like, that they could watch these things thinking well "the ******* deserved it", or what the hell they thought. Because some of these devices/machines are designed like extreme adult toys or what to say. Where you don't really get the impression that they were even interested in a confession, compared to simply causing as much pain and suffering to the victim as they could possible imagine.

I would be very interested in knowing more about what the heck was going through people's head back then, so if anyone knows or have studied this or just have some thoughts about it, I would be interested in hearing it?

These Medieval Torture Devices and Methods That Date Back to the Ancient World

Men are basically evil. It's why we need God.
How can torture be enjoyable to people? Because we are evil creatures. You even see this today it's just more subtle. Why is there cyberbullying? Because people enjoy inflicting mental pain upon others.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think that about sums it up. Also to provide an example for others not to try. Nothing exemplifies this as Mel Gibson's 'Braveheart', or the actions of a few American military guards at an Iraqi prison etc.

Quite, but shame that Braveheart was not based on reality, even if the abominable punishments administered were.

 

[Jainarayan]

Men are basically evil. It's why we need God.
How can torture be enjoyable to people? Because we are evil creatures. You even see this today it's just more subtle. Why is there cyberbullying? Because people enjoy inflicting mental pain upon others.

Nonsense. I don’t believe people are basically evil. The number of people who torture, maim, kill people (and animals) in gruesome ways and enjoy it, i.e. psychopaths and sociopaths, pales in comparison to the number of people who are repulsed by it and wouldn’t think of it. I think the spectators of such ancient and medieval practices were conditioned and desensitized to it.

In my sect of Hinduism God has stepped in 23 times, with one more to come, to address a world gone bat-**** crazy. However, these were largely a one-on-one between God and a single evildoer. Other sects of Hinduism don’t believe this at all.

 

[Brian2]

So yesterday I for some reason thought about humans and our ability to kill each other. I mean if we can say one thing about the human species and creativity, it must be that when it comes to that, we must be close the best in the Universe, everything from sticks to bombs that can kill everything on the planet and everything in between, in such a short amount of time, is pretty damn impressive

Obviously we can't hide that we often end up killing each other due to whatever reason. But I remember reading about medieval torturing devices, which oddly seems to not only been designed to kill people, but to actually try to maximize the cruelty that you could inflict on the person. As part of the explanation for this on this page (Link below), is that they wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and get people to confess to something.

But what I don't really get is, that they almost seem to be design to also sort of make a show or competition out of it, like how bad or cruel can we possible make these things.
Now I don't want to turn this into a religious thing, despite a lot of them were used in regards to this, but then again, religion were the norm, and I don't really doubt for a second that even without religion that it could have happened as well due to other reasons, so please try to keep religion out of it, unless you truly believe that it could only be caused by this.

But I just can't help thinking what on Earth went through people's head back then? How their view on other humans must have been like, that they could watch these things thinking well "the ******* deserved it", or what the hell they thought. Because some of these devices/machines are designed like extreme adult toys or what to say. Where you don't really get the impression that they were even interested in a confession, compared to simply causing as much pain and suffering to the victim as they could possible imagine.

I would be very interested in knowing more about what the heck was going through people's head back then, so if anyone knows or have studied this or just have some thoughts about it, I would be interested in hearing it?

These Medieval Torture Devices and Methods That Date Back to the Ancient World

It is amazing how the psyche of many people in a whole nation can be changed so that evil things are seen as OK. And people are no doubt even more willing to do them because it has the approval of the leaders.
Cruel punishment as a deterrent to criminals could help explain some of it.
There are of course cruel trials to determine if someone was guilty or not. Some to extract a confession and others as contests between the accused and his accuser to see who is lying.
Trial by ordeal - Wikipedia

 

[Nimos]

Men are basically evil. It's why we need God.
How can torture be enjoyable to people? Because we are evil creatures. You even see this today it's just more subtle. Why is there cyberbullying? Because people enjoy inflicting mental pain upon others.

I wouldn't agree with that, if that were the case. I honestly don't think that we would have survived as a species.

But also to me there is a huge difference between cyberbullying and bullying in general and this. To put its to the extremes, lets say I wanted you dead for whatever reason. Even if that were the case, the step going from me simply wanting to kill you, to me wanting you to go through one of these devices/machines is like a completely different story. Because clearly it is not enough for me simply getting rid of you, I have to get rid of you in the most cruel way that I could possibly think of. I mean, I don't even think the best horror writers today could come up with stuff like this, and if they did, I assume they got inspired by it

And I don't think we are just talking crazy mass murders here, like them having killed whole families, children, pets etc. in some extreme act of violence. But probably people identified as criminals, might be murders and stuff like that, political and religious reasons I assume, traitors and so forth. So even if they thought the death penalty was the best option, they just for whatever reason, had to make it sort of like an artform of how you could get rid of people in different creative ways.

 

[Nimos]

It is amazing how the psyche of many people in a whole nation can be changed so that evil things are seen as OK. And people are no doubt even more willing to do them because it has the approval of the leaders.
Cruel punishment as a deterrent to criminals could help explain some of it.
There are of course cruel trials to determine if someone was guilty or not. Some to extract a confession and others as contests between the accused and his accuser to see who is lying.
Trial by ordeal - Wikipedia

I actually had that thought as well, that if the threat of punishment is "insane" enough, people won't risk going against it simply out of fear. So I agree, that it might very well be a reasonable explanation as well.

 

[PureX]

I think it's important to keep in mind that all the murder and mayhem and torture of man's inhumanity to man is really about control. What we humans really crave above all else is control. Control over every thing and everyone, if possible, because only then, we think, will we finally be "safe", and "fulfilled", and free from loss and suffering. We rape, rob, pillage, murder, torture, and main each other basically as a way of taking and expressing control over each other. If he or she will not do our bidding we must annihilate them. Because we can't accept life a world that does not comply with our needs and desires. And with our sense of "righteousness".

 

[RestlessSoul]

I actually had that thought as well, that if the threat of punishment is "insane" enough, people won't risk going against it simply out of fear. So I agree, that it might very well be a reasonable explanation as well.

That's state sanctioned terrorism; the purpose of exceptionally cruel punishment for transgression in those circumstances, is to cow a population into submission, and silence dissent through terror.

History suggests that as a means of ensuring political stability, it doesn't work. Indeed, when a state is built on terror, the Kings, Emperors and Dictators are generally in as much terror as their subjects, and frequently come to the same bloody ends. Think Julius Caesar and Mussolini.

More shocking than the abuses of power by the powerful, is the fact that they never seem, throughout history, to have too much trouble recruiting individuals to do their dirty work. Maybe executioners are able sleep at night, but state sanctioned official torturers? What would that do to a man's soul?

 

[Brian2]

I actually had that thought as well, that if the threat of punishment is "insane" enough, people won't risk going against it simply out of fear. So I agree, that it might very well be a reasonable explanation as well.

Still torturing people to get them to confess to something certainly does away with the innocent until proven guilty idea. (something that seems to have been in effect in the Mosaic Law).
This torturing for a confession at the very least shows extreme frustration in having a good way to determine guilt or innocence and a determination to blame and punish someone.
Some of it seems to follow the idea that God will protect the innocent idea.

 

[Brian2]

I think it's important to keep in mind that all the murder and mayhem and torture of man's inhumanity to man is really about control. What we humans really crave above all else is control. Control over every thing and everyone, if possible, because only then, we think, will we finally be "safe", and "fulfilled", and free from loss and suffering. We rape, rob, pillage, murder, torture, and main each other basically as a way of taking and expressing control over each other. If he or she will not do our bidding we must annihilate them. Because we can't accept life a world that does not comply with our needs and desires. And with our sense of "righteousness".

Comply or suffer the consequences. And people used to think, and still do in some places that punishment can instil faith into people it seems but maybe it is not faith that is wanted, but an outward show of compliance,,,,,,,,,,,as you say, control.
It would be hard to live in those societies if you are a dissenter and hard to point out to the perpetrators that they are doing the wrong thing. That would certainly be an act of disloyalty or at the least you would be laughed at and thought mad.
When I think about it that sort of thing is going on in Australia at the moment with the detainment of refugees. It is too easy to justify evil with what looks like legitimate reasoning.

 

[PureX]

Comply or suffer the consequences. And people used to think, and still do in some places that punishment can instil faith into people it seems but maybe it is not faith that is wanted, but an outward show of compliance,,,,,,,,,,,as you say, control.
It would be hard to live in those societies if you are a dissenter and hard to point out to the perpetrators that they are doing the wrong thing. That would certainly be an act of disloyalty or at the least you would be laughed at and thought mad.
When I think about it that sort of thing is going on in Australia at the moment with the detainment of refugees. It is too easy to justify evil with what looks like legitimate reasoning.

The use of violence to enforce control is unfortunately both toxic to humans, and highly contagious. The more fear it instills in people, the more inclined they are to employ it. And to employ it all the more viciously. It may very well prove to be the end of us, as a species. And if it does, I suppose rightly so. And yet we still just cannot grasp the deadly nature of this propensity of ours for gaining control through the force of violence. It's like a drug that, once taken, blinds us to it's innate damage.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's mystery to me too.
How those people could not feel neither empathy nor pity for their victims.

Quite, but shame that Braveheart was not based on reality, even if the abominable punishments administered were.

You mentioned cinema. I am thinking of the movie Quo Vadis ..of the scene where Poppaea enjoys watching Christians being devoured by lions. Eating grapes while watching.

 

[Heyo]

Men are basically evil. It's why we need God.

God has not a good track record of keeping people from being cruel to other people.

 

[Erebus]

But what I don't really get is, that they almost seem to be design to also sort of make a show or competition out of it, like how bad or cruel can we possible make these things.

It often was a show, at least when it comes to executions. For torture, one reason for it might be to make people confess before you actually use the device. If the prospect of what the thing will do to you is horrific enough, you might well just skip straight to the execution to save yourself the pain.

It is worth noting though that the historicity of some of the more grotesque torture and execution methods is questionable. There has been a tendency to overemphasise the brutality of earlier cultures to the point of outright fabrication.* To give an example, scaphism was such a gruesome method of execution that I won't describe what it entails. However, there's very little evidence that it actually happened and it seems much more likely to have been a way of portraying the Persians as barbaric.

That actually brings up another quirk of humans. Even if somebody doesn't actually want to torture or kill somebody themselves, many people have a streak of morbid fascination. That's probably why serial killers capture so much media attention.


*Note that this doesn't mean they weren't brutal at times. Just generally less brutal than commonly portrayed.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Still torturing people to get them to confess to something certainly does away with the innocent until proven guilty idea. (something that seems to have been in effect in the Mosaic Law).
This torturing for a confession at the very least shows extreme frustration in having a good way to determine guilt or innocence and a determination to blame and punish someone.
Some of it seems to follow the idea that God will protect the innocent idea.

If she's a witch, she'll float; in which case, we'll drown her. Or something.

 

[Mock Turtle]

You mentioned cinema. I am thinking of the movie Quo Vadis ..of the scene where Poppaea enjoys watching Christians being devoured by lions. Eating grapes while watching.

Well I have an issue with Braveheart, as with many movies that tend to distort the truth, in that the love interest could never have happened apparently, and the depiction of Wallace, apart from as a hero to the Scots, was also not true. But probably just one of my foibles (being English ). The horrible behaviour towards any deemed to be criminals certainly did happen, and was probably enjoyed by many. Times change.

 

[Heyo]

So yesterday I for some reason thought about humans and our ability to kill each other. I mean if we can say one thing about the human species and creativity, it must be that when it comes to that, we must be close the best in the Universe, everything from sticks to bombs that can kill everything on the planet and everything in between, in such a short amount of time, is pretty damn impressive

Obviously we can't hide that we often end up killing each other due to whatever reason. But I remember reading about medieval torturing devices, which oddly seems to not only been designed to kill people, but to actually try to maximize the cruelty that you could inflict on the person. As part of the explanation for this on this page (Link below), is that they wanted to humiliate, dehumanize and get people to confess to something.

But what I don't really get is, that they almost seem to be design to also sort of make a show or competition out of it, like how bad or cruel can we possible make these things.
Now I don't want to turn this into a religious thing, despite a lot of them were used in regards to this, but then again, religion were the norm, and I don't really doubt for a second that even without religion that it could have happened as well due to other reasons, so please try to keep religion out of it, unless you truly believe that it could only be caused by this.

But I just can't help thinking what on Earth went through people's head back then? How their view on other humans must have been like, that they could watch these things thinking well "the ******* deserved it", or what the hell they thought. Because some of these devices/machines are designed like extreme adult toys or what to say. Where you don't really get the impression that they were even interested in a confession, compared to simply causing as much pain and suffering to the victim as they could possible imagine.

I would be very interested in knowing more about what the heck was going through people's head back then, so if anyone knows or have studied this or just have some thoughts about it, I would be interested in hearing it?

These Medieval Torture Devices and Methods That Date Back to the Ancient World

Humans are cruel to others because life is cruel to them. With the exception of psychopaths, humans have empathy, like to share and co-operate - as long as they profit. When resources get scarce, the willingness to share dwindles (because it might be the end of both of you if you share today and both of you starve tomorrow; better keep food for tomorrow and keep the chance to find food for the day after tomorrow in the gained time). Humans get "hardened" in hard times and sometimes empathy doesn't come back when times get better.
That is why people in wealthy countries with functioning social security system are often more empathic than people who live in fear.

That is not the only explanation but one that explains the big picture. As the Milgram and the Stanford prison experiment showed, people can also be cruel when ordered or incentivised to be.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I would be very interested in knowing more about what the heck was going through people's head back then, so if anyone knows or have studied this or just have some thoughts about it, I would be interested in hearing it?

You might be interested to read Letter XXIV of seneca's letter's from a stoic, volume 1. I believe it is that one, where he goes into the most detail about the imposed torture methods, of his time at least, and how they should be perceived by a stoic. As for what went on in the head of the torturer, I am getting some idea of that by reading more 1st century history about Nero, where we see that sociopathy has been selected for. It's unfortunately something that's been around for a very long time, and there are even novel methods described in the extra-canonical books of the maccabees, which take place all the way back into the greek empire. One wonders if the european dark ages were really all that much more novel with this, as likely they could only develop new things with new technology, which didn't seem to hit a growth curve until science was freed up again. Which presents new problems in that domain of course, for who knows what some modern autocrat is doing somewhere in the world.