Human cruelty

[Mock Turtle]

I've been doing research and trapping and reading animal sign since I was under 10 years old. That's forty plus years studying animal behavior. Plus farming to one degree or another for most of my life.

Well you should know better, unless you were only looking at a few limited species. Try looking at the more social animals and how they behave.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Nope, that's actually a low estimate. Just the US riots caused between one and two billion in damage. Add that to all riots worldwide.

And all caused by - all of mankind of course, since they are all evil - instead of by the few who actually did cause the damage. Know what projection and extrapolation are?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Well you should know better, unless you were only looking at a few limited species. Try looking at the more social animals and how they behave.

What animals aren't social? Social doesn't equal moral.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And all caused by - all of mankind of course, since they are all evil - instead of by the few who actually did cause the damage. Know what projection and extrapolation are?

A few? Lol, ok. Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. And that's just one example. I don't think I need to go into child trafficking, forced prostitution, the child molestation epidemic, etc. I could go on for pages once I start listing all of man's evil.
Yes, we also have the capability to do good, but we definitely all have the capacity for much evil.

 

[Mock Turtle]

What animals aren't social? Social doesn't equal moral.

Plenty of animals don't live in groups. The ones that do often seem to evolve some sort of moral behaviour that can show friendships and punishments for transgressions, for example, so hardly just behaving by instinct alone.

 

[Mock Turtle]

A few? Lol, ok. Obviously, you haven't been paying attention. And that's just one example. I don't think I need to go into child trafficking, forced prostitution, the child molestation epidemic, etc. I could go on for pages once I start listing all of man's evil.
Yes, we also have the capability to do good, but we definitely all have the capacity for much evil.

List away all you like but it still wouldn't then imply therefore that all were evil - perhaps you'd like to display some statistics as to the majority being killers, thieves, or whatever. You must be seeking out all the worst sorts to fill your days - or you have a funny definition of evil.

 

[Wildswanderer]

List away all you like but it still wouldn't then imply therefore that all were evil - perhaps you'd like to display some statistics as to the majority being killers, thieves, or whatever. You must be seeking out all the worst sorts to fill your days - or you have a funny definition of evil.

So you never sin? Is that the point? Evil starts in the heart and head. Having wrong thoughts but not acting on them doesn't equal being good. If we weren't inclined to evil, why is the history of mankind full of atrocities?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Plenty of animals don't live in groups. The ones that do often seem to evolve some sort of moral behaviour that can show friendships and punishments for transgressions, for example, so hardly just behaving by instinct alone.

Animals that don't herd up are still social in one way or another.
Herding up is instinctive. It's for self protection.
Killing the weakest as some animals do, is that moral?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Animals that don't herd up are still social in one way or another.
Herding up is instinctive. It's for self protection.
Killing the weakest as some animals do, is that moral?

Possibly, according to what is 'best' for their lives. It's the height of arrogance to assume our morality should extend to other species, unless one had some religious beliefs as to such.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So you never sin? Is that the point? Evil starts in the heart and head. Having wrong thoughts but not acting on them doesn't equal being good. If we weren't inclined to evil, why is the history of mankind full of atrocities?

We all behave badly at times - just an aspect of being human - but 'evil' is a bit much for me, given that it just means 'at the very end of the good/bad spectrum', even if it means something else to you. The atrocities mostly are carried out by the few in general, and who often are at the very end of the good/bad spectrum - at least when they carry out such. The majority, on the other hand, are not likely to commit atrocities, such as they can't be blamed necessarily for the actions of the few.

 

[Wildswanderer]

We all behave badly at times - just an aspect of being human - but 'evil' is a bit much for me, given that it just means 'at the very end of the good/bad spectrum', even if it means something else to you. The atrocities mostly are carried out by the few in general, and who often are at the very end of the good/bad spectrum - at least when they carry out such. The majority, on the other hand, are not likely to commit atrocities, such as they can't be blamed necessarily for the actions of the few.

This is just nonsense. How many millions followed Hitler?

 

[Mock Turtle]

This is just nonsense. How many millions followed Hitler?

So when exactly did we all become evil - 2000, 6000, 50,000, or 200,000 years ago, or was it inbuilt from when we split off from the other primate species several million years ago? The evil ones are the few who make or encourage others to go to war. Do you think many had any options in those days? Nah, sorry guv, I don't feel like killing anyone today!

 

[Wildswanderer]

So when exactly did we all become evil - 2000, 6000, 50,000, or 200,000 years ago, or was it inbuilt from when we split off from the other primate species several million years ago? The evil ones are the few who make or encourage others to go to war. Do you think many had any options in those days? Nah, sorry guv, I don't feel like killing anyone today!

We became evil when Adam sinned. We inherited the sin nature. We were never primates. That's another nice myth that makes us just animals, so that we don't have to take responsibility for our actions.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We became evil when Adam sinned. We inherited the sin nature. We were never primates. That's another nice myth that makes us just animals, so that we don't have to take responsibility for our actions.

Ah, I can see where you are coming from then - so when was that exactly?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Ah, I can see where you are coming from then - so when was that exactly?

I don't know exactly.. maybe approximately 10,000 years ago.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't know exactly.. maybe approximately 10,000 years ago.

Right, so since you don't seem to believe even basic science there is not much point in continuing with this. Bye.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Right, so since you don't seem to believe even basic science there is not much point in continuing with this. Bye.

Oh I believe in science that can be tested and repeated. Theories of origins not so much.

 

[Valjean]

So when exactly did we all become evil - 2000, 6000, 50,000, or 200,000 years ago, or was it inbuilt from when we split off from the other primate species several million years ago? The evil ones are the few who make or encourage others to go to war. Do you think many had any options in those days? Nah, sorry guv, I don't feel like killing anyone today!

"Evil" is an ambiguous and value-laden term.
We're hard-wired with a psychological armamentarium optimized for the small-band, hunter-gatherer lifestyle we evolved with. Trying to impose horticultural, agricultural, pastoral or industrial culture models on a brain wired for a hunter-gatherer culture requires considerable tweaking and coercion. Even when successful, the new survival strategy and concomitant values and social attitudes form only a thin, easily breached veneer.

"We" never became evil. We developed different cultural models, with good and evil as degrees of fit.

 

[Mock Turtle]

"Evil" is an ambiguous and value-laden term.
We're hard-wired with a psychological armamentarium optimized for the small-band, hunter-gatherer lifestyle we evolved with. Trying to impose horticultural, agricultural, pastoral or industrial culture models on a brain wired for a hunter-gatherer culture requires considerable tweaking and coercion. Even when successful, the new survival strategy and concomitant values and social attitudes form only a thin, easily breached veneer.

"We" never became evil. We developed different cultural models, with good and evil as degrees of fit.

No disagreements here, since I don't believe in evil either - just degrees of bad behaviour or other such.