Not right. They have neither belief nor dis-belief.
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"Humans are born as atheists"
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Not right. They have neither belief nor dis-belief.
"I lack belief" is a positive claim.
Sure... if you see a need to distinguish atheism-as-a-default from atheism-as-an-expressed-situation.
It is obvious that both you and @Willamena do. The choice is no more necessary or no less arbitrary for that.
Which is why beings that are atheistic but lack the ability to make claims do not make it.
Draka
Wonder Woman
It is a position in regards to given information. Without knowledge of the information having a position in regards to it is impossible.
Maybe babies are born as animists. Kinda fits with some of the behaviour commonly exhibited, and it means both theists and atheists can stop assuming whatever babies are born as confers the least amount of credibility.
(not saying ALL theists and atheist do this...some seem to, though)
So...there...
Regardless of fact, I'm gonna run with 'Humans are born as animists'.
(not saying ALL theists and atheist do this...some seem to, though)
So...there...
Regardless of fact, I'm gonna run with 'Humans are born as animists'.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I didn't say "disbelief". To "lack" a belief in something simply means to be without it. It doesn't necessarily mean that you believe the opposite.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Ok, that is a claim. Once one makes a claim either way it is outside the realm of being implicit. We are merely speaking to being an atheist by definition. Someone who is not aware of God cannot be said to believe in God. Thus they are without, or "lack" a belief in the existence of God.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Btw, it is not a positive claim. It is merely the recognition that a specific belief is not present. It does not necessarily mean that you believe God doesn't exist. That's my point.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Right. So, those who neither believe nor disbelieve are not making a statement. However, they are still without (lack) a belief in the existence of God. Thus, they are atheists, and atheism must not require any position.
Draka
Wonder Woman
No, atheism IS a position, just like theism. A position upon a theological concept. If you have no knowledge of the concept you cannot have a position upon it. Can you have a position upon a concept you know nothing about? No. You can't. You can only say "I don't know". If you really must label ignorant little babies with a term in regards to theological concepts then the closest you could come is agnostic, or even better, ignostic. Either way though, the fact remains those who are unknowing cannot hold a position in either direction.
And a default position at that. One that is defined not by an active or conscious claim, but rather by the absence and/or opposition to one.
The distinction between theism and atheism is very much asymetrical in nature. Theism is a positive claim. Atheism can be one, but it never needed to.
Unless it happens to be a default position, which atheism is.
Wrong. Being aware of the concept or of the existence of the position is not a prerequisite. Nor is the abiity to have rational or abstract thought, either.
Sure, expressing said position would be a whole different matter.
The opposite really. Agnosticism is not a default position, because it can only exist once some awareness of a god-concept is attained.
Same for ignosticism.
Unlike atheism, which does not have such a restriction or requirement, since it is nothing more or less than the absence or refusal of an opposite position (theism) which does have the need for a god-concept and therefore for some measure of thought.
Not so if we are talking about default positions such as atheism that do not require awareness nor the power of abstraction or expression.
That only is the point. This argument is not based on truth but is a slimy and expedient one.
You may well be sincere, but you are not respectful nor accurate in saying such a thing.That only is the point. This argument is not based on truth but is a slimy and expedient one.
Please explain this 3rd state, atanu. A slate is either blank or inscribed, a box either contains something or does not. What would this 3rd state be?
But, essentially, atheism is not a position. The term describes a lack of position.
Strong atheism is a position. But weak atheism -- essential atheism -- is not. It simply describes an absence of belief. The ignorance, which you ascribe to little babies -- is atheism.
A-theism is the lack of any theological position.
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If you take away all theists from the planet all you are left with are not theists by definition. Babies are obviously not theists as they aren't old enough to understand the concept of theism yet. There is a class of people who insist on bringing rocks into the discussion and by doing so they disqualify themselves from being taken seriously.
Easy. The box contains neither a black ball nor a white ball, but contains a grey ball.
For a baby, who is not even aware of the concept, 'neither a theist nor an atheist' is a true description.
For a stone, there is no ability of discernment, so the question is indeterminate or meaningless.
For an adult, a statement such as "I lack belief in love", implies a knowledge of what love is.
...........
Tell me if there is anything wrong in above three or not?
I have told you. Black and white are not the only two colours.
When we are talking about theism and not theism those are the only two options. Black and not black are the only two options in a discussion about what is black and what is not.
Don't change the subject. We are not discussing the color of the possible ball but whether there's a ball in the box or not.