waitasec
Veteran Member
aren't people spread out all over the place?
aren't people subjected to their beliefs?
hoping they'd grow into wheat
wheat represents the intention of what the seed was supposed to end up being... believers of jesus
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Humans love better than God
- Thread starter Where Is God
- Start date
aren't people subjected to their beliefs?
hoping they'd grow into wheat
wheat represents the intention of what the seed was supposed to end up being... believers of jesus
Luminous
non-existential luminary
I think Quagmire is pointing out that ANY book only has LETTERS, it says whatever you read into those. In this case they just happen to disagree with waitasec no matter how he reads them.
wheat gets eaten and then it gets pooped out and returned to dust once the body dies.
wheat gets eaten and then it gets pooped out and returned to dust once the body dies.
waitasec
Veteran Member
...but heyjesus said it in matthew chapter 13
not me...
matthew chapter 13
37 He answered, The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
and he isn't speaking in parables when saying "the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom"...he is explaining the parable to his disciples...
just saying.
What I'm saying is there's no reason to interpret it that way, and if you look at the message inherent in the other parables in Matthew, there's every reason not to interpret it that way.
Matthew, taken as a whole, represents Jesus as a teacher, therfore the teachings are the pivotal consideration.
The only Gospel that suggests that belief in Jesus (as God or the Son of God) is the main requirement for "salvation" is John, and John carries a completely different message (and presents a completely different Jesus) than the synoptics do.
Now, I showed you what I'm basing all this on in post #92. If you want to refute that with something more substantial than, "sure, that's great" (which you and I both know is just a way of saying "lalala I'm not listening") we can take it from there.
jesus said it in matthew chapter 13
not me...
matthew chapter 13
37 He answered, The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
and he isn't speaking in parables when saying "the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom"...he is explaining the parable to his disciples...
just saying.
It still doesn't make any sense.
If he's scattering people, hoping that they'll grow into people, the parable itself loses any meaning it might have had.
To me, it looks like the author is taking what was probably an already existent parable, possibly attributed to Jesus, and supplying an interpretation that fit his own purposes.
This is all a side issue anyway: even if we accept the idea that seed="people of the kingdom" in the parable, you've still yet to show why we should accept the idea that "people of the Kingdom" equal those who accept Jesus as God, or the only way to God, rather than those who follow his teachings.
aren't people spread out all over the place?
aren't people subjected to their beliefs?
hoping they'd grow into wheat
wheat represents the intention of what the seed was supposed to end up being... believers of jesus
This doesn't make any sense either: earlier you were saying that the seed represented people who already believed in Jesus. Now you're saying the parable was supposed to represent Jesus scattering people who already believed in him in the hopes that they would grow to become people who believed in him.
And again: explain why we should accept that "people of the Kingdom" = "believers in Jesus", rather than people living in accordance with his teachings,
waitasec
Veteran Member
of course there are plenty of reasons to interpret it that way especially if it comes straight out of the horses mouth..
i have been of the opinion that the bible is full of inconsistencies and irreconcilable differences...
but we could take a closer look at them if you want...
case in point of the inconsistency of the bible...
therefore, to gain access to heaven one is to look out for every beggar they see
and visit prisoners or invite strangers into their homes?
how about looking out after the sick...do we pay out of our own pockets for those whom we know cannot afford their meds...
here is another inconsistent teaching in matthew...
Matthew 19:16-23 (New International Version, ©2011)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
so, is one supposed to sell all their possessions too? or is this conveniently applied to the rich guy...or all rich people...
if we do that then how do we help the poor, or do we become the needy and by doing so we earn our way into heaven...
apparently mother theresa thought so...
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But it isn't coming "straight out of the horses mouth", it's going through who knows how many filters and coming out of yours.
If that were the topic of this thread or this discussion, sure. It isn't. How about replying to the point I was making?
Yes, there are inconsistencies in the Bible. OK, now that we have that covered, how about what I was saying about John vs the synoptics and how that pertains to the topic?
LOL! OK, now I understand what's up here: you're not interested in discussing interpretations, you're just looking for things to object to. You just made a show of wanting to discuss interpretations because it seems less petty.
here is another inconsistent teaching in matthew...
Matthew 19:16-23 (New International Version, ©2011)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?
17 Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied. There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.
18 Which ones? he inquired.
Jesus replied, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,[a] and love your neighbor as yourself.
20 All these I have kept, the young man said. What do I still lack?
21 Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
so, is one supposed to sell all their possessions too? or is this conveniently applied to the rich guy...or all rich people...
if we do that then how do we help the poor, or do we become the needy and by doing so we earn our way into heaven...
What does any of this have to do with the discussion about varying interpretations that we were having?
waitasec
Veteran Member
fair enough...But it isn't coming "straight out of the horses mouth", it's going through who knows how many filters and coming out of yours.
If that were the topic of this thread or this discussion, sure. It isn't. How about replying to the point I was making?
Yes, there are inconsistencies in the Bible. OK, now that we have that covered, how about what I was saying about John vs the synoptics and how that pertains to the topic?
LOL! OK, now I understand what's up here: you're not interested in discussing interpretations, you're just looking for things to object to. You just made a show of wanting to discuss interpretations because it seems less petty.
What does any of this have to do with the discussion about varying interpretations that we were having?
if you are suggesting that all these parables in matthew chapter 13 have the same message, then i think you are mistaken...or maybe i misunderstood..
in any case:
the parable of the sower, the mustard seed and the yeast suggests how faith grows from humble beginnings...
the parable of the weeds is about the acceptance of faith...
the people of the kingdom accepted faith and the weeds are the people of the evil one who rejected it...
"the good seeds stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one"
another reason why i think unbelievers are the weeds is because of:
mark 16:16 one of the synoptic gospels says:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned...
and the crucifixion story in luke also suggests that faith is all you need to go to heaven
luke 23:39
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
so here are my reasons for thinking unbelievers are the ones that go to hell...
phew, hope i made myself clear...
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Not the same message, the same theme.
But faith in what? again: the idea that one has to acknowledge Jesus as God, the Son of God, or the only way to salvation isn't presented in any of the Gospels except John.
Mark 16:9-20 is almost unanimously acknowledged by scholars to be an interpolation.Mark 16:9-20; Are these verses an interpolation? (or "apocryphal addition" as the church puts it.)? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers
The original version of the Gospel is almost univerally believed to have ended at 16:8 (see link). the last 12 verses are believe d to have been added centuries after Mark was written.
The Jewish idea of the Messiah is that of a man, not a God.
so here are my reasons for thinking unbelievers are the ones that go to hell...
phew, hope i made myself clear...
More so, thanks.
waitasec
Veteran Member
yes i am aware of that ...however, it is accepted as part of the gospel of mark...that's why it's there
you lost me here...
the criminal believed jesus was the son of god and because of that confession jesus said he'd meet him in paradise...
here we clearly have a 'criminal' who had no time to do good deeds, so his faith saved him....
yea!
yes i am aware of that ...however, it is accepted as part of the gospel of mark...that's why it's there
Accepted by who and as what?
Remember: your whole argument in favor of the interpretation you were giving hinges on the author's perspective, not ours.
Jesus' whole message was about forgiveness for the repentant.
In that light, it's clear that it was this belief that saved him: "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve."
Not any beliefs about Jesus himself.
waitasec
Veteran Member
thanks for reminding me...
so why didn't jesus forgive the antagonistic criminal too...?
You see the significance of that, right?
Key word here being: repentant.
The first thief was asking for something, the second one was apologizing.
waitasec
Veteran Member
absolutely.
i am aware that these come from a certain perspective that has to do with the intended audience for each gospel...
those 2 passages i presented in the synoptic gospels were the only ones i could find that would seemingly suggest belief is what saves you...
and i am fully aware that paul and jesus have very different views on this...
i guess i was looking at that parable with an old understanding i had when i was a believer and took all 4 gospels as pieces of the same puzzle when in actuality they are 4 very different puzzles...old habits die hard...
but then why was he repentant...could it be because he believed this was the messiah which brought him to repent?
who knows really...
thanks for being so patient....
:rainbow1:
Not that I have any right to hold up score cards or anything, but I think that's an excellent and admirable realization, waitasec. :yes:
Possibly, I suppose. But then again, just knowing you're about to die can be a pretty good eye-opener anyway: someone who's about to die doesn't need to rationalize anything anymore (unless he's still looking for a way out, like the other guy was) .
None of us, IMO. That's what makes all of this so much fun.
You're welcome, and thank you too.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
No, as I said, He doesn't choose to send ANYONE there!
YOU can put YOURSELF in that state both here and now AND in the Next Life!
Indeed, EACH of us is in either Heaven (the state of spiritual nearness to God) or hell (spritual separation) at each instant as a function of "where our heads are at" and whether we exhibit good or bad decisins and actions. In this life, each of us can thus switch to Heaven at any time!
And as the scripture I quoted states, in the Next Life God assists even those who, through their bad actions and decisions have put themselves in the worst sort of hell, to draw nearer to Him, eventually attaining Heaven!
Best!
Bruce