Orias
Left Hand Path
I like this.
On the same note, predators like lions or even the orca whale have been observed to "play" with their prey before finishing the job.
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Humans: The Mind of God in the body of an Animal
- Thread starter Octavia156
- Start date
I like this.
On the same note, predators like lions or even the orca whale have been observed to "play" with their prey before finishing the job.
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
not really
I spoke to Dawkins himself about this.... evolution is gradual - so if you go back 10,000yrs you could mate, 20,000 still oK, 30,000 getting improbable, 40,000 not possible.
we share ancestral genes with fish - doesn't mean we can mate with them or that we're the same species
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
again null example
This is biosurvival - insinctual programming used to train cubs ( bring home something half dead to "catch") what we seee as "playing' is an extension of this biological programming
NOT ART
Orias
Left Hand Path
So art is not apart of our biological programming?
I'm afraid I don't see any point behind any of this, because as far as biological programming and survival goes, humans are in the same boat as all other species of living organism.
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Orias
Left Hand Path
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we are not our own "Gods" by right, but that other species of animal are not just "stupid animals", they are extremely intelligent and vibrant. What we observe in them is simply what has been passed down to them through generations of survival, intermingling and the natural drive to exist in an existential world.
If humans have the mind of God in the body of an animal, then can a dog not also have the mind of God in the body of an animal?
You have to look at relationship here, instead the common generalization. "Art" and the "abstract", half the crap that sells in auctions for millions of dollars isn't "art". If I let my dog walk in paint and then make him walk on a canvas that could just as easily be considered "art". Do you understand what I'm trying to say here? Anyone can try and pass anything off as whatever they want.
The relationship with me and puppy can be a prime example of this. My territory is his territory, whenever there is someone that he doesn't know that is near or on our territory he "woofs" at and looks at me like "what should I do". This type of relationship is unique, even if you can observe it in other areas.
Consciousness in its whole and primary function is not something individualized for humans, its shared collectively, with all living species. To say that humans and only humans share the mind of God is somewhat degrading considering we came from the same place everything else in existence came from as well.
If humans have the mind of God in the body of an animal, then can a dog not also have the mind of God in the body of an animal?
You have to look at relationship here, instead the common generalization. "Art" and the "abstract", half the crap that sells in auctions for millions of dollars isn't "art". If I let my dog walk in paint and then make him walk on a canvas that could just as easily be considered "art". Do you understand what I'm trying to say here? Anyone can try and pass anything off as whatever they want.
The relationship with me and puppy can be a prime example of this. My territory is his territory, whenever there is someone that he doesn't know that is near or on our territory he "woofs" at and looks at me like "what should I do". This type of relationship is unique, even if you can observe it in other areas.
Consciousness in its whole and primary function is not something individualized for humans, its shared collectively, with all living species. To say that humans and only humans share the mind of God is somewhat degrading considering we came from the same place everything else in existence came from as well.
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
I'm arguing Art does not serve an obvious biosurvival function - i'm not saying anything about programming - other than animals only exhibit behaviours that come from instinctual biosurvival programming or to serve interdependence functions.
No - because dogs evidently don't create unique things for the sake of pleasure alone.
If there is a God - then what is it primary function? To create the Universe.
What do men do that animals don't - we add stuff to the universe that didn't otherwise exist. God did not create the bow and arrow or the paint brush - Man did.
Show me what the dog made.
I'm talking about the wo/Man who first thought to mix pigments and fashion a way of spitting it around hir hand to leave a negative imprint of their palm inside of a cave... or the tribe who drew pictures of themselves successsfully hunting, or them that first hollowed out wood and worked out just the right places to put holes so that when you blew through you could make pleasing sounds.
My hypothesis is that only humans can do this - therefore they have god-like qualities that animals don't.
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I kinda get the idea that whoever found/utilized fire was an anomaly that the rest of the species was able to mimic and prosper off of. Of course the whole species should take credit, right?
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
you are right, I would say in this case along with many - whole species could benefit, not 'take credit'.
all genetic mutations are anomalies - its the anomalis that drive evolution.
Orias
Left Hand Path
It doesn't matter if you said anything about programming or not (even though you clearly did), we are animals, natural life, no different than a dog or cat who's natural programming gives them instinct and ability to survive.
Dogs have made relationships, shown affection and have brought light to people's worlds that may have otherwise been at the end of the road. You want to know a few things my dog can do that you can't? You want to know a few things that I could probably do that you can't? I could list any number of things that any other living species could do that you and I cannot do, just because we can create things for the sake of pleasure does not make us anymore or less divine than any other living species. Because if we feel pleasure, pain, and gratification among all other emotions then so can other animals, and its very ungodly to take that away from them, especially when you consider where we all come from.
Just because we can speak, and we have certain finesses doesn't put us any higher up on the food chain. All animals have their own form of communication, from chimps, to lions, to spiders and lizards, they are all geared with natural and evolutionary equipment that allows them to live and thrive off their own unique way of self preservation and initiation. Humans aren't much farther down the evolutionary chain than a sloth, in fact, humans are so darned stupid that there is so many of us that we don't even know what to do with each other.
You want to put human's on a pedestal then fine, but you should also realize that its us "Gods" that have made the world a more difficult place to live in for all living species. Just look at pollution, over population, and stupid overgeneralization and appreciation for a species of mammal that is more likely to kill itself than it is to thrive with the rest of the pack.
Dogs have made relationships, shown affection and have brought light to people's worlds that may have otherwise been at the end of the road. You want to know a few things my dog can do that you can't? You want to know a few things that I could probably do that you can't? I could list any number of things that any other living species could do that you and I cannot do, just because we can create things for the sake of pleasure does not make us anymore or less divine than any other living species. Because if we feel pleasure, pain, and gratification among all other emotions then so can other animals, and its very ungodly to take that away from them, especially when you consider where we all come from.
Just because we can speak, and we have certain finesses doesn't put us any higher up on the food chain. All animals have their own form of communication, from chimps, to lions, to spiders and lizards, they are all geared with natural and evolutionary equipment that allows them to live and thrive off their own unique way of self preservation and initiation. Humans aren't much farther down the evolutionary chain than a sloth, in fact, humans are so darned stupid that there is so many of us that we don't even know what to do with each other.
You want to put human's on a pedestal then fine, but you should also realize that its us "Gods" that have made the world a more difficult place to live in for all living species. Just look at pollution, over population, and stupid overgeneralization and appreciation for a species of mammal that is more likely to kill itself than it is to thrive with the rest of the pack.
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I have a question. What are "god-like qualities?" How are you defining the gods, Octavia?
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
I'm arguing that we are different - not because we don't have animal instincts survival programming - we clearly do - but because we appear to have artistic tendencies in addition to these functions
I'm arguing that is does make us more divine. I'm not talking about capacity for pain or gratification, or the abilty to learn or induce self pleasure. I'm talking about the inclination to make Art. I'm arguing that creativity is godly
clearly we are! I disagree with everything you've said here. Animals may be able to communicate information, but they cannot communicate ideas and they do not create new things intentionally.
The fact that I am debating this with you millions of miles away demonstrates we are far more advanced than a sloth.
Again - these problems you highlight only serve to prove my point further - pollution, a good example, like cruelty or any other product of humanity are ultimately the result of our ART (extrapolated over thousands of years)
This is not a debate about human morality. Its a discussion that is clearly demonstarting that Art sets us apart from animals, and creativity being a primary god-like function - my hypothesis is we have god-like minds working through animal bodies.
I find it interesting that people are so reluctant to recognise this.
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Octavia156
OTO/EGC
some god-like qualities:
- Imagination
- Rationality
- Creativity - the focus of this debate
- Will
Are these anomalies supposed to be god driven? The differences between us and our intelligent great ape cousins is no greater than chance.
Fair enough. Apparently many of my gods are not gods according to you, though. This is probably why I disagree with the thrust of your argument even granting that humans are somehow super special animals.
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
Fair enough. Apparently many of my gods are not gods according to you, though. This is probably why I disagree with the thrust of your argument even granting that humans are somehow super special animals.
We may share more "gods" than you think - I am in the habit of the using of the term "god" for literary purposes. Gods as models if you will. There are gods and the godess in Thelema, but these represent absract ideas...
This would be more relevant different discussion - and I'd be wearing a different hat! :rainbow1:
I'm currently wearing my scientist hat looking at evidence and trying to come up with a theory that goes someway to explain the nature of what it means to be 'sapiens'.
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Orias
Left Hand Path
But how does this make us more "God-like", how does appearance determine difference? I'm saying this out of the notion that we are all biologically the same, humans and all other living species alike. Does wearing clothes also make us Gods?
But if there is more than one thing that attributes to "God-hood", then creativity does not make us anymore or less "Godly" than other animals. This is because there are animals out there that have instincts and minds to do things we could only dream of doing. I'm not sure a dog or a bird dreams of painting across a giant canvas does he?
But how do you know we can create new things intentionally? Most of human bi-product and humans themselves were not intentionally cooked up in this material universe. Most of everything is by chance, per motive of some abysmal origin or force.
We are higher up on the food chain, yet even with everything that man has killed you still see him dying off, getting attacked by ducks and running away like buffoon, and more importantly killing each other.
Of course, killing each other is also a quality or characteristic of the Gods, but nonetheless we are no higher up on the food chain than a horse getting turned into glue.
So you're calling pollution and sadism art?
Maybe you see whats wrong with the picture here.
I agree, I'm just saying that if we have God-like minds working through animal bodies, then all other animals also have God-like minds working through animal bodies.
I'm not, I recognized it right away. There are just some things that I needed to get out of the way
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
We share all the 7 life functions with evey other living species yes - but we appear to have more.
We are not biologically the same at all - we have different DNA. The only biological identical things are clones - of which there are a few in nature.
Yes you could definitely argue clothes are ART.
I know because I do it all the time
products of it - yeh
I agree, I'm just saying that if we have God-like minds working through animal bodies, then all other animals also have God-like minds working through animal bodies.
I'm not, I recognized it right away. There are just some things that I needed to get out of the way
well I'm arguing - no. Animals do not exhibit god-like abilities as outlinesd in this debate therefore they do not have god-like minds working through the body of an animal
ony we appear to.
Orias
Left Hand Path
You know, actually answering the questions I ask helps a little.
And yes we are actually biologically the same, I never biologically identical. I say biologically the same because we all come from the same place.
I know because I do it all the time
So you have an idea of what you're going to paint or draw 100% of the time every time, before you do it?
How does this justify anything?
What product of pollution and sadism can you justify as being "art"? Lets also bring up intention here, its a strong point.
But I just contradicted you with a more detailed outline than you have provided me. In what way do other animals not exhibit any of these things?
You have to understand what you're arguing here is not subject to fact or objective material, if your going to place humans on a pedestal you have to justify it, instead of simply saying "humans are the only animals that exhibit god like abilities or qualities".
What this also shows is it isn't that all humans show this potential but that it manifests in only a few. We are clearly talking levels of intelligence and those levels extend to other animals. It takes humans a few years to even be able to exhibit these advanced features but other species, all at different levels depending on age and intelligence, have been shown to as well.
Octavia156
OTO/EGC
As an Atheist and a Scientist I don't hold the belief that Natural Selection is "god-driven".
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