Hypothetical Regarding Child Support

[Mr. Skittles]

Oh, that's right. My arguments are always all about you. Thanks for reminding me why say what I say.

No.cause your a feminist and you have shown on many occasions you've shown your biases plain and simple....Oh I get it a woman with a vagina can do no wrong right? Gotcha

I am honestly sick of women using their vagina as a pedestal as if birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon warrants some sort of gold medal. No the hold medal comes from being a good mother not because you give birth.

 

[Bismillah]

You don't think carrying a child, nurturing it with our own body, going through the pain and labor of birthing it, and then suckling it merits recognition or a certain bond between a mother and her child?

 

[gnomon]

At the risk of re-opening a can-o-worms, i thought I'd start this thread.
My issue with a blanket rule for enforced child support is that its possible for some to be taken advantage of, especially when they have no real opportunity to voice their objections, leading me to think such a subject can only be justly dealt with on a case by case basis.

What does everyone make of this hypothetical?

Bill is a decent and good guy. He loves his job working with endangered animals, where he travels to foreign countries for most of the year fighting against poaching and animal black market dealing. His job does not make him much money at all. When back in the UK one time, he meets someone when out having some drinks with his old mates. They end up having sex, in very casual circumstances for pleasure only. He doesn’t usually do this sort of thing, but does feel that he should let his hair down occasionally and have some fun.


They both were using contraception, him a condom, and she said she was on the pill as ‘she definitely wouldn’t want to get pregnant, and do anything to avoid it’.


As far as Bill was concerned it seemed clear that neither wanted a pregnancy, especially evident from the implementation of contraceptive measures.


Never the less, approx. a week or so later, after adding her to Facebook as you tend to do with everyone you meet, he finds out that she is pregnant and is keeping the baby. On further investigating it turns out to be his.
She isn’t interested in any kind of relationship with Bill at all. She is quite well off, and has lots of family support. Bill is soon leaving the country again for his job. He was never consulted on the decision to keep this child, or what it might mean for him.


Bill is forced to pay child support until the child grows up. The amount substantial enough to impact his job’s travelling costs, which he must save up for every trip abroad he takes. As a result he cannot do what he loves as often as he otherwise could.


Does this seem fair or unfair on Bill?

I was willing to state that unless one didn't want the responsibility of one's actions than one shouldn't engage in certain actions.

Than I remembered I was knocking on a lot of wood given my own personal experience in "hooking up".

There is an argument to be made in the modern world that if a woman decides to engage in sexual encounters and the ever present risk of pregnancy despite all birth control methods that if a male partner is desired merely for sexual gain and no want of pregnancy is desired than that male partner should not be required to support a child the woman decides to keep.

Yet an old school streak still runs in me in which if one is not willing to accept the responsibility of one's actions than the best bet is to not engage or risk accepting all responsibilities of said action.

But then again, knock on wood, none of my past partners have presented me with a progeny. But then again, I don't think any of my past partners would be willing to admit my contribution.

Best advice. If you are not willing to accept all possible contingencies than don't engage. Spock logic coming right at ya. Personal advice. Don't get drunk at a bar and hook up with someone unless you lucked out as much as I did. Which is rare.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No.cause your a feminist and you have shown on many occasions you've shown your biases plain and simple....Oh I get it a woman with a vagina can do no wrong right? Gotcha

Interesting. So arguing for women's rights magically means that I think a woman can do no wrong. Strange leap of logic there, young man.

I am honestly sick of women using their vagina as a pedestal as if birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon warrants some sort of gold medal. No the hold medal comes from being a good mother not because you give birth.

I double dog dare you to say that to a childbirth class full of hormonal pregnant women.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No.cause your a feminist and you have shown on many occasions you've shown your biases plain and simple....Oh I get it a woman with a vagina can do no wrong right? Gotcha

I am honestly sick of women using their vagina as a pedestal as if birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon warrants some sort of gold medal. No the hold medal comes from being a good mother not because you give birth.

It seems that you think of being a "feminist" as a bad thing. Why is that? When you have to fight for your rights in a society, any society, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe a lot of men can't see that due to the fact that they aren't subjected to nearly as much sexism and gender-based discrimination as women are, but it doesn't change the reality that such discrimination still exists and needs to be dealt with.

And yes, I think that merely giving birth to a child warrants at least some appreciation for the mother. We're talking about the culmination of 9 months of pain, sickness, weakness, reduced mobility, and being at a risk of dying. I'm not sure whether the male anatomy experiences anything equal to such pain in its natural processes — I'm guessing not — so I'm not going to pretend that I know exactly what it's like. However, I do know that childbirth pain is mostly beyond description or being accurately conveyed through words. Therefore, "birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon" strikes me as an oversimplification of what labor is like.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You don't think carrying a child, nurturing it with our own body, going through the pain and labor of birthing it, and then suckling it merits recognition or a certain bond between a mother and her child?

I get the feeling that Skittles just can't get enough of my attention.

But to be serious, pregnancy, childbirth, and lactation requires a tremendous amount of commitment in spite of the pain and the sleep deprivation. It's more than reducing everything to the passage through the birth canal. The entire physiology of the woman is impacted on an enormous level.

My favorite story to tell is the nausea. I grew up and spend much of my adolescence with many bouts of nausea and vomiting. I even went through periods of nausea from severe dehydration during some of the more severe moments of my eating disorder. So, when I'd hear about morning sickness, I used to think, "What's the big deal? It's nausea. It's not like you're dying. Quit whining and eat some saltine crackers! Jeez!"

Oh, how karma is a *****. LOL

I got pregnant, and I was literally camped out by the toilet throwing up for almost four months. I got used to throwing up all the time even though I never REALLY got used to it. I thought morning sickness was just a morning thing that lasted a week or so while the body adjusted. But four months of nausea and puke day in day out night in night out?

I'd told it earlier, but giving birth was no picnic. I lost too much blood, and had I not been with a qualified hospital staff, I might have hemorraged. My delivery was in a room with about 20 doctors, nurses, and interns. No joke. My first journey into childbirth was terrifying and was thankfully treated with great care by the staff.

But....you know.....so what, right?

 

[McBell]

No.cause your a feminist and you have shown on many occasions you've shown your biases plain and simple....Oh I get it a woman with a vagina can do no wrong right? Gotcha

Well, if nothing else, you are consistent.

Anything else you would like to twist around to fit your agenda?

I am honestly sick of women using their vagina as a pedestal as if birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon warrants some sort of gold medal. No the hold medal comes from being a good mother not because you give birth.

Yeah, I know, Right?
i mean cause raising the child is not nearly as much a responsibility as making child support payments...:sleep:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It seems that you think of being a "feminist" as a bad thing. Why is that? When you have to fight for your rights in a society, any society, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe a lot of men can't see that due to the fact that they aren't subjected to nearly as much sexism and gender-based discrimination as women are, but it doesn't change the reality that such discrimination still exists and needs to be dealt with.

And yes, I think that merely giving birth to a child warrants at least some appreciation for the mother. We're talking about the culmination of 9 months of pain, sickness, weakness, reduced mobility, and being at a risk of dying. I'm not sure whether the male anatomy experiences anything equal to such pain in its natural processes — I'm guessing not — so I'm not going to pretend that I know exactly what it's like. However, I do know that childbirth pain is mostly beyond description or being accurately conveyed through words. Therefore, "birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon" strikes me as an oversimplification of what labor is like.

First, I love you. :hug:

Second, how many people also know that being pregnant suppresses the immune system of the mother in order to protect the fetus? Guess what happens? You get sick more often. And when you're sick with a fever while pregnant, your options for relief are limited. Ibuprofen and aspirin are out. Acetaminophen is okay. But watch out to ensure that you don't have a fever over 100 degrees (F), otherwise there are risks of complications with the fetus developing spina bifida depending on the age of the fetus.

I wish it were as simple as pushing a baby out the size of a watermelon, but it isn't. The body is changed forever on every physiological level.....the endocrine system, the skin, blood sugar, blood pressure....

Ah, memories.

 

[McBell]

First, I love you. :hug:

Second, how many people also know that being pregnant suppresses the immune system of the mother in order to protect the fetus? Guess what happens? You get sick more often. And when you're sick with a fever while pregnant, your options for relief are limited. Ibuprofen and aspirin are out. Acetaminophen is okay. But watch out to ensure that you don't have a fever over 100 degrees (F), otherwise there are risks of complications with the fetus developing spina bifida depending on the age of the fetus.

I wish it were as simple as pushing a baby out the size of a watermelon, but it isn't. The body is changed forever on every physiological level.....the endocrine system, the skin, blood sugar, blood pressure....

Ah, memories.

I cannot help but wonder why those in support of being able to just sign a document and be free from responsibility keep completely ignoring the fact the woman has to go through the pregnancy process...

I mean they keep going on and on about how unfair it is for the man to have to pay child support but completely gloss over and ignore the whole pregnancy part...

 

[dawny0826]

At the risk of re-opening a can-o-worms, i thought I'd start this thread.
My issue with a blanket rule for enforced child support is that its possible for some to be taken advantage of, especially when they have no real opportunity to voice their objections, leading me to think such a subject can only be justly dealt with on a case by case basis.

What does everyone make of this hypothetical?

Bill is a decent and good guy. He loves his job working with endangered animals, where he travels to foreign countries for most of the year fighting against poaching and animal black market dealing. His job does not make him much money at all. When back in the UK one time, he meets someone when out having some drinks with his old mates. They end up having sex, in very casual circumstances for pleasure only. He doesn’t usually do this sort of thing, but does feel that he should let his hair down occasionally and have some fun.


They both were using contraception, him a condom, and she said she was on the pill as ‘she definitely wouldn’t want to get pregnant, and do anything to avoid it’.


As far as Bill was concerned it seemed clear that neither wanted a pregnancy, especially evident from the implementation of contraceptive measures.


Never the less, approx. a week or so later, after adding her to Facebook as you tend to do with everyone you meet, he finds out that she is pregnant and is keeping the baby. On further investigating it turns out to be his.
She isn’t interested in any kind of relationship with Bill at all. She is quite well off, and has lots of family support. Bill is soon leaving the country again for his job. He was never consulted on the decision to keep this child, or what it might mean for him.


Bill is forced to pay child support until the child grows up. The amount substantial enough to impact his job’s travelling costs, which he must save up for every trip abroad he takes. As a result he cannot do what he loves as often as he otherwise could.


Does this seem fair or unfair on Bill?

I'm of the opinion that people need to be realistic when it comes to sex. If you're a guy like Bill who doesn't live a lifestyle that's conducive for rearing a child and there's no desire for having or supporting children - he needs to make some better decisions when it comes to his sex life and educate himself on the laws of his country regarding parenting rights. That's his responsibility - as part of his sexual freedoms.

Pleasure is great, but it's fleeting. I don't understand the mindset of people like our hypothetical Bill, who expect people to feel sorry for them, when they knowingly place themselves in situations that could result in unplanned pregnancy.

And yes, the use of contraception isn't good enough - if you don't want children, particularly with a partner that you hardly know. It's a health risk, as condoms break. How do you know that your partner is really on the pill and the pill is 100% effective.

We frown upon abstinence as a modern society and we seem to almost look down upon those who take a more prudent stance on sex - yet, had Bill refrained from intercourse altogether and chosen different ways of enjoying his female companion OR abstained all together, there wouldn't have been a child to argue over or to regret.

I don't think it's unfair for Bill to be asked to support the child that he created, if the mother decides to carry the child full term. If the laws in their country dictate that a father should be responsible and a mother has legal recourse to require that he support the child they created together - I'm of the opinion that he's equally responsible for care of that child.

If people don't like the laws of their states or countries or whatever the case may be, they have the responsibility to push for change. If they don't want the burden of parenthood, they need to make better choices for themselves.

When a child is conceived, ultimately, a woman has the decision to make as to whether or not she is to carry the child to term or not. It's not an easy decision to make and regardless as to how well off an individual may be, it's not fair for a single individual to be held responsible for the care/welfare of a child that two consenting adults, during an act of passion, created.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

You don't think carrying a child, nurturing it with our own body, going through the pain and labor of birthing it, and then suckling it merits recognition or a certain bond between a mother and her child?

I am not downplaying it, but in a debate if that argument is used as if the woman has some sort of superiority especially in child rearing I need to call a spade a spade. Too often women tend to say in so many words "hey look at me I gave birth" if this argument is made to justify the infringing of the father's rights I am not going for it.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Interesting. So arguing for women's rights magically means that I think a woman can do no wrong. Strange leap of logic there, young man.



I double dog dare you to say that to a childbirth class full of hormonal pregnant women.

I have in both feminist class. I PO'd a lot of women. I am sorry having a vagina does not make you special. Giving birth does not make you special and if you or any woman believes that a vagina and a baby coming out of one warrants a father's rights to be trampled over then you have another thing coming.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

I get the feeling that Skittles just can't get enough of my attention.

But to be serious, pregnancy, childbirth, and lactation requires a tremendous amount of commitment in spite of the pain and the sleep deprivation. It's more than reducing everything to the passage through the birth canal. The entire physiology of the woman is impacted on an enormous level.

My favorite story to tell is the nausea. I grew up and spend much of my adolescence with many bouts of nausea and vomiting. I even went through periods of nausea from severe dehydration during some of the more severe moments of my eating disorder. So, when I'd hear about morning sickness, I used to think, "What's the big deal? It's nausea. It's not like you're dying. Quit whining and eat some saltine crackers! Jeez!"

Oh, how karma is a *****. LOL

I got pregnant, and I was literally camped out by the toilet throwing up for almost four months. I got used to throwing up all the time even though I never REALLY got used to it. I thought morning sickness was just a morning thing that lasted a week or so while the body adjusted. But four months of nausea and puke day in day out night in night out?

I'd told it earlier, but giving birth was no picnic. I lost too much blood, and had I not been with a qualified hospital staff, I might have hemorraged. My delivery was in a room with about 20 doctors, nurses, and interns. No joke. My first journey into childbirth was terrifying and was thankfully treated with great care by the staff.

But....you know.....so what, right?

In all honesty I do not care for your attention, its called being opinionated. Unlike the others I as a healthcare worker who have seen some horrific mothers refuse to put a woman's vagina on a pedestal.

 

[McBell]

I am not downplaying it, but in a debate if that argument is used as if the woman has some sort of superiority especially in child rearing I need to call a spade a spade. Too often women tend to say in so many words "hey look at me I gave birth" if this argument is made to justify the infringing of the father's rights I am not going for it.

What right are you claiming woman are stamping all over with the excuse of "hey look at me I gave birth"?

 

[Mr. Skittles]

It seems that you think of being a "feminist" as a bad thing. Why is that? When you have to fight for your rights in a society, any society, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe a lot of men can't see that due to the fact that they aren't subjected to nearly as much sexism and gender-based discrimination as women are, but it doesn't change the reality that such discrimination still exists and needs to be dealt with.

And yes, I think that merely giving birth to a child warrants at least some appreciation for the mother. We're talking about the culmination of 9 months of pain, sickness, weakness, reduced mobility, and being at a risk of dying. I'm not sure whether the male anatomy experiences anything equal to such pain in its natural processes — I'm guessing not — so I'm not going to pretend that I know exactly what it's like. However, I do know that childbirth pain is mostly beyond description or being accurately conveyed through words. Therefore, "birthing out a kid the size of a watermelon" strikes me as an oversimplification of what labor is like.

As a healthcare worker I have seen the whole gamit. From drug addicts to cancer patients to patients who pass away. I have heard the argument of "my vagina is greater than your rights because I pushed out a human child." Carrying a child to term does not mean in a custody situation a woman's rights are greater than a man's rights. I can appreciate a woman enduring labor pains, however if the argument is made in such a way that this repetitive argument of "my golden vagina trumps men's rights" continue, then I can do nothing but show what the real world is actually like.

I judge motherhood on the capability of the mother not because of her anatomy as I have clearly said before, mothers strung out on heroin give birth to, but clearly as a drug addict they are not being responsible to themselves and their child. So sorry I don't buy into the "golden vagina" argument.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

What right are you claiming woman are stamping all over with the excuse of "hey look at me I gave birth"?

The argument which within Mystic's and other women I've debated in class with on this notion that a woman who gives birth has more rights than a man.Even if Mystic does not outright say it at least with me, that notion is implied.

But wait don't take my word for it, the judicial system endorses this anyway.

 

[McBell]

The argument which within Mystic's and other women I've debated in class with on this notion that a woman who gives birth has more rights than a man.Even if Mystic does not outright say it at least with me, that notion is implied.

But wait don't take my word for it, the judicial system endorses this anyway.

You did not answer the question:

What rights are you claiming woman are stamping all over with the excuse of "hey look at me I gave birth"?
​

You made the claim in three different posts, you claim to have special knowledge that the claim is true, but you have not said what rights are being trampled on.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

You did not answer the question:

What rights are you claiming woman are stamping all over with the excuse of "hey look at me I gave birth"?
​

You made the claim in three different posts, you claim to have special knowledge that the claim is true, but you have not said what rights are being trampled on.

We are talking about custody and child support right? Well I was merely stating (aside from the obvious biases of our judicial system) in that it appears the emphasis using the argument of the "golden vagina" appears to indeed trample the rights of men. As I said even if it was not said it was implied. Or do you prefer me to point out specifics? Not sure if I answered you...

Edit****

When I am talking about rights I am referring to paying child support and/or custody issues such as which parent does the child stay with? Most certainly the courts favor the mother (if all things being equal) because there seem to be this emphasis that the child needs to be with the mother.

 

[McBell]

We are talking about custody and child support right? Well I was merely stating (aside from the obvious biases of our judicial system) in that it appears the emphasis using the argument of the "golden vagina" appears to indeed trample the rights of men. As I said even if it was not said it was implied. Or do you prefer me to point out specifics? Not sure if I answered you

What specific "rights" are being trampled on?

I also have to wonder how it is you are able to push the blame off on woman at all seeing as the vast majority of judges who make the court orders are actually men...
I suspect that perhaps you have things a bit backwards.

However, since you have not yet reveal what rights are being trampled on...

 

[McBell]

Edit****

When I am talking about rights I am referring to paying child support and/or custody issues such as which parent does the child stay with? Most certainly the courts favor the mother (if all things being equal) because there seem to be this emphasis that the child needs to be with the mother.

So it is your claim that the father has the "right" to not pay child support?

I am not understanding what you mean by the fathers "rights".