Hypothetical scenario for a world without religion

[syo]

Imagine for a moment, a hypothetical scenario where everyone's memory of every religion disappeared and all the literature vanished.

How would one find or demonstrate a certain deity exists?

The Gods will contact us.

 

[Audie]

The Gods will contact us.

Audie strikes her forehead, saying, "Of Course!!"

I mean, that is so totally what they always have done,
why would it be diff. ifn we all had a brain fart and forget
what they said last time???

 

[ChristineM]

Can you imagine what a caveman or cavewoman would think if he or she saw the stuff we have today?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C Clarke

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Imagine for a moment, a hypothetical scenario where everyone's memory of every religion disappeared and all the literature vanished.

How would one find or demonstrate a certain deity exists?

The reason I ask this is because science does not need previous literature to observe a phenomenon, hypothesise, verify, experiment and then create theories. It seems like scientific theories do not need previous literature the same way religion does and there's no way to replicate scripture.

This reminds me of a similar hypothetical I posed someone who was insisting that atheism was as "taught" a mind-set as any theism was.

I proposed we think about a world in which the coming generation was given no scripture, taught no religious doctrine, and told nothing of God. I asked how many of those kids (without any information at all) would somehow come to know the particulars of any given religion as "truth". And then I asked how many kids this person thought might be atheist. Needless to say, the reply to that post was a lot of yammering on in other subjects and avoiding the question.

 

[charlie sc]

The gods of polytheistic traditions are various aspects of reality. That they exist is kind of a... 'well, duh!' That they are gods is not. Not everyone deifies the same things, nor should they. That only makes for false gods.

I liked your post but are you saying here the deity itself is not real, but what they represent is real?

 

[charlie sc]

This reminds me of a similar hypothetical I posed someone who was insisting that atheism was as "taught" a mind-set as any theism was.

I proposed we think about a world in which the coming generation was given no scripture, taught no religious doctrine, and told nothing of God. I asked how many of those kids (without any information at all) would somehow come to know the particulars of any given religion as "truth". And then I asked how many kids this person thought might be atheist. Needless to say, the reply to that post was a lot of yammering on in other subjects and avoiding the question.

Indeed. I think I've got similar results. The answers I got from theists were: god is coming, we're all theists at heart, we'll just make up new deities, new religions will be invented, and it's unlikely we'll get to our current religions or deities.
So far, no one has suggested a method to actually go out and find or test these deities. The most amusing reply was that Darwinism becomes a religion but with no deity. However, I know why no deity was placed in this Darwinism example, because it just opens a greater can of worms for theists than it does for atheists.

 

[charlie sc]

The Gods will contact us.

That's very optimistic. Considering the rise of atheism, thousands of denominations and religions, why do you think god hasn't contacted us now?

 

[Quintessence]

I liked your post but are you saying here the deity itself is not real, but what they represent is real?

No. Hmm. Let's see if I can explain this differently.

To try and put things simply with an analogy, think about a map that represents some particular bit of territory. The things we label as gods are the territory, but not everyone labels their map that way. They might not use the label "gods" (or other cultural equivalents) on their map at all. Both territory and the maps representing said territory are quite real and impactful.

 

[charlie sc]

No. Hmm. Let's see if I can explain this differently.

To try and put things simply with an analogy, think about a map that represents some particular bit of territory. The things we label as gods are the territory, but not everyone labels their map that way. They might not use the label "gods" (or other cultural equivalents) on their map at all. Both territory and the maps representing said territory are quite real and impactful.

I'm sorry, I still don't quite get it. Territories are abstract concepts. If you remove people, you wouldn't find territories. Similarly, maps represent how we mapped the landscape. However, if we remove all maps, the landscape stay the same. Are you saying these abstract concepts are real?

 

[dianaiad]

Your reply was very thought out and, I think, You’re the most intellectual honest theist I’ve met! You’re right, we might do it all over without some sort of deity intervention. However, don’t you think a deity would show themselves now to sort out the thousands of denominations, religions and non-theists? I don’t see why they’d show up in this hypothetical. in fact, with the rise of atheism, I’d think now would be a good time to show up.

Well, you have to know that I, the theist who believes in modern revelation (unlike most modern Christians) I do think He has actually 'shown up,' but that is rather beside the point. I'm sure that you think 'show up' involves something rather more dramatic than I am comfortable with; something that you can't possibly explain away as anything BUT God showing up. I don't see that happening, frankly. It's just that I have run into so many atheists who have come right out and told me that even if God Himself showed up personally and said "I AM" to them, they wouldn't accept that as proof enough.

Now THAT, I think, is faith stronger than pretty much anything a theist can come up with!

You’re right about not changing the fundamentals of humanity. Consider, however, our vast knowledge, science, cultural integration, etc has already changed how humanity acts towards others and life. Therefore, it changes based on our upbringing and environment. For instance, I don’t see slavery as the norm anymore even though some religions may slightly promote it

Why?

See, here's the basic problem: either there is a God, in which case you can blame Him for all the problems....like slavery or war or anything else people blame on religion, or there is no God.

If there is no God, then PEOPLE did all that stuff; the slavery, the wars...and oh, the incredible architecture, art and philosophy that came about as a direct result of religious fervor. They may have invented a deity Who approves of their actions (so that they can cast the blame on Someone Else) but they are the ones who did it all.

Removing the imagined deity from the general human consciousness wouldn't fix that. People would still be, well, people, and people will do the most amazingly horrible things 'in the name of...' whatever they want to blame their actions upon.

Whether that is a specific deity (Who probably doesn't want anything to do with whatever it is) or "human progress,' or 'the mother/fatherland' or some other cause.

Call me a cynic, or just a realist. I believe that there IS a God, and that I know more about Him than most other people (of course I believe that. If I didn't, I'd go find something else to believe in and THEN I'd believe I had 'the truth' about the whole thing. We all believe that about our own religious POV).

I believe that He has given us our free will; we do what we want to do. He will guide us, speak to us through prophets and through prayer, but in the end, what we do is up to us, and people will do what they will do.

Oh, fiddle. What I believe about this is sung about a lot in Sacrament Meeting:

1. 1. Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
   To choose his life and what he’ll be;
   For this eternal truth is giv’n:
   That God will force no man to heav’n.
2. 2. He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
   And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
   In nameless ways be good and kind,
   But never force the human mind.
3. 3. Freedom and reason make us men;
   Take these away, what are we then?
   Mere animals, and just as well
   The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.
4. 4. May we no more our pow’rs abuse,
   But ways of truth and goodness choose;
   Our God is pleased when we improve
   His grace and seek his perfect love.

What this says about us...me...is that God simply isn't going to appear and provide absolute proof of His existence. Doing so will destroy our free will every inch as much as the doctrine of predestination does.

This may seem like a side track, but it's really not: we humans choose our paths, and if God IS, then He allows us to do so (I believe) and we will go all sorts of merry ways.

If He is not, then we choose our paths and we will go all sorts of merry ways, and it seems that religion...or forms of deity...are an integral part of being human. Simply removing our memories of that wouldn't alter us.

I think it WOULD destroy a huge amount of the best things about being human, as well as some of the worst, and we would have to start all over.

Inventing...or finding...God.

 

[charlie sc]

I don't see that happening, frankly. It's just that I have run into so many atheists who have come right out and told me that even if God Himself showed up personally and said "I AM" to them, they wouldn't accept that as proof enough.

Now THAT, I think, is faith stronger than pretty much anything a theist can come up with!

I think so too. Some powerful entity showing up and doing all sorts of magical stuff, and I can confirm I'm not crazy, would make me think it's god or at least some kind of god. I mean, it could be a super intelligent alien race just messing with us, but I don't mind defining that as god.
I have however witnessed a similar situation with theists. I've seen some Christians asked if god came down, he showed he was God, and told you to murder a bunch of children then would you do it? The Christians, in this example, refused to believe this is God, because they believe in the moral code of scripture or their own perceived moral code, so this can't be god or whatnot. Just saying, it's two-ways

What this says about us...me...is that God simply isn't going to appear and provide absolute proof of His existence. Doing so will destroy our free will every inch as much as the doctrine of predestination does.

Well, this is very interesting. However, didn't you claim God did show his existence to everybody? There are a ton of rules from religions, some a bit weird, all in the name of god whom supposedly showed himself. Wouldn't you prefer clear instructions rather than vague interpretative ones? I also see an argument on the other side. I've never known free will(if it exists) to diminish or vanish because one shows themselves. Parents will make rules and appear as gods in the eyes of their children. Nonetheless, as they grow up they leave the nest and become autonomous. The most unhealthy relationships are when the parents lack presents in their children's lives. Oh dear. You're a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place here.

Very nice video, but I think in this line of music, I prefer some delicious Gregorian chant.

Very nice to talk to you again btw

 

[charlie sc]

I think it WOULD destroy a huge amount of the best things about being human, as well as some of the worst, and we would have to start all over.

Indeed, I don't think religions should go. I think it makes us who we all are today. For better or worse. I prefer better.

 

[David T]

Imagine for a moment, a hypothetical scenario where everyone's memory of every religion disappeared and all the literature vanished.

How would one find or demonstrate a certain deity exists?

The reason I ask this is because science does not need previous literature to observe a phenomenon, hypothesise, verify, experiment and then create theories. It seems like scientific theories do not need previous literature the same way religion does and there's no way to replicate scripture.

Oh really on previous literature iscience is a scaffolding completely dependent on previous texts..
In regards to " proof of God" you seem to be under the wierd idea your experts on the topic "religion" are experts. Based on what evidence do you have of that? A topic can both be true and completely not understood.

 

[Bird123]

Ok, so how can I find a deity today or in the hypothetical without examining religion?

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. Isn't God more than the sum of mankind's religion? Are you really dependent on others to discover what actually exists?

Discovery opens doors to new ideas and other directions to investigate. It's a journey. You might not know how to find God when you start your journey, however you might discover how along the way.

 

[Bird123]

Nah. You misunderstood, or choose not to grasp
what I said.

It has seemed to me that for those to whom the
"god" belief is central to their reality, "no god"
is just inconceivable. All is without form, and void.

"God", for all the versions that people come up with,
is completely undetectable. Nothing is known about it
including whether or not it exists. In all regards it meets
all the same specifications as anything does not exist
at all.

Just how that becomes the center point of reality for
some people is says something about the human mind,
yes. A quirk of some people's mentality does not very logically
translate into meaning that there is something greater
and longer lasting than the entire universe (multiversees).

If it does for you, it does.

I think deep down everyone knows God exists
when they bump into God again, they will already know Him.
As I see it, God is nothing like religion teaches.

Obviously this is what you think

I have encountered a lot of people who have told me in
their various ways that I really do believe, but,
wont be honest, just want to sin, am in Satan's
thrall, and all of the other things they come up
with. (make up)

When you actually find God, God will no longer be a Belief. Have you assumed God does not exist or do you search for the truth?

Disregard the sin, Satan and such. You are right. That is no more than stories. It is not reality.

 

[Kilk1]

I find the Bible answers how the witnesses see Jesus after he was crucified is via resurrection.
The God of Jesus resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave according to Acts chapter 2.
Resurrected Jesus, Not back into his physical body, but back into his pre-human spirit heavenly body.
Thus, the resurrected Jesus appeared in his spirit body in the presence of his God as per Hebrews 9:24.
'Flesh and blood' ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom according to 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Since the spirit or invisible body of Jesus could Not be seen by his followers is why Jesus used several different materialized bodies to appear to his followers. That is why at first they did Not recognize the resurrected spirit Jesus.
Luke 24:16-44; John 21:14

As for Paul, Acts of the Apostles 9:4-7 lets us know Paul heard the voice of the resurrected spirit Jesus.

Paul's specific apperance is shown to be different in Acts. However, even then, Paul makes clear that he saw Jesus, not just heard Him, in 1 Corinthians 9:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:8. Furthermore, the author of Acts also writes in Luke 24:39 that when Jesus appeared risen, He said, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Paul writes in Philippians 3:20–21 that when Christ returns (i.e., to raise Christians from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23), He "will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body" (NKJV, emphasis added). Paul, then, taught resurrection as being where the mortal body is transformed to an immortal, "glorious body."

 

[syo]

That's very optimistic. Considering the rise of atheism, thousands of denominations and religions, why do you think god hasn't contacted us now?

We choose not to listen.

 

[Jumi]

You fully understand, and being a reasonably intelligent person, even anticipate the fact that all I have to do is say without the Creator, Jehovah God none of that would be possible?

It's because you believe it. The science one is true whether you believe it or not. Nobody can make a computer or any modern equipment without the verified theories of science. We use it every day whether we believe in a creator or not.

 

[Jumi]

That's very optimistic. Considering the rise of atheism, thousands of denominations and religions, why do you think god hasn't contacted us now?

If you think God is like a human or demands you to do something then that makes sense. But what if God or even gods aren't like that?

If you read about "mysticism", you know that there are plenty of us who have experienced God across cultures. Whether it's your luck to experience it or not, it's not something that we will blame you for. You can believe the religions or oppose them, it doesn't matter in the end. God won't care either way (or have other human-like agendas) so it's fine for you to live life to your ethical considerations.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not for me at least. God is God, doesn't matter if you sacrifice everything for it and become miserable. It won't change or help God.

I find what Job did help his God.
Satan challenged Job, and along with his challenge Satan challenges all of us:
'Touch our flesh' ( loose physical health ) and none of us would serve God <- Job 2:4-5.
Job under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar
Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar
Thus, they vindicated or hallowed God's name clearing it of any reproach Satan cast upon God.
The change was in the end with faithful Job is as recorded in the 42nd chapter of Job.
The change was in the end as with faithful Jesus in that his God resurrected dead Jesus - Revelation 1:18.
Thus, the change for us is that Jesus' was given the God-given resurrection power and will resurrect the dead.
As for the change or blessing for those of us still alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separating ' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 is that living people can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, becoming part of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth when it begins, and what is miserable ends.
Even miserable ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8; Isaiah 35th chapter.