I am sick with rage.

[Sunstone]

If I had a miscarriage, I can imagine nothing so pleasant as spending the next 12 hours running around town gathering all the necessary signatures to avoid a fine of $2500 or a year in prison.

 

[Fluffy]

Forced miscarriage is murder....I agree that they should report all deaths to avoid abuse....I also agree that this is an exaggeration of that. They should give a grieving mother time to report it, but all deaths should be reported. That friend that Fluffy described as using miscarriage as a form of birth control should be locked up before she hurst herself or more unborn children....or anyone else for that matter.

I agree huajiro... she needs to stop at least, unfortunately she is the sister of one of those people closest to me and so I feel like my hands are tied in this case. I think its a form of denial.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Forced miscarriage is murder

Not even. Forced miscarriage is abortion, and under the law, abortion is not murder. How is it different if she does it herself, versus going in and having a doctor do it?

If it's not too personal a question, Fluffy, how is your friend able to so successfully make herself have a miscarriage, time and time again? I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[Fluffy]

She self harms around her midsection, mostly by punching or other blunt methods. I believe she also has thrown herself down the stairs on occasion. Keep in mind that I hear all of this through my friend, who is, understandably, worried about her sister so how much is true or not I am not sure since I have never actually met her sister (she lives right up in the North of England).

Don't you think there is a pretty big difference between abortion and forced miscarriage? Especially in the case of this person. The difference being in the method.

 

[Lintu]

Not even. Forced miscarriage is abortion, and under the law, abortion is not murder. How is it different if she does it herself, versus going in and having a doctor do it?

If it's not too personal a question, Fluffy, how is your friend able to so successfully make herself have a miscarriage, time and time again? I've never heard of such a thing.

Natural abortifacients have always been used by women, for thousands of years now. I'm not going to post specifics, but there are many different kinds of things a woman can take.

 

[huajiro]

Not even. Forced miscarriage is abortion, and under the law, abortion is not murder. How is it different if she does it herself, versus going in and having a doctor do it?

If it's not too personal a question, Fluffy, how is your friend able to so successfully make herself have a miscarriage, time and time again? I've never heard of such a thing.

I believe abortion is murder

 

[Jaymes]

I believe abortion is murder

That's lovely. Not the topic of this thread, though.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Fluffy--the methods most certainly are different. Your friend is risking her life by forcing herself to miscarry like this. She needs to be advised to stop before she causes herself permanent damage--not only from the physical trauma she inflicts on herself, but also the unseen internal trauma caused by numerous abnormal miscarriages. She is putting her life at risk by refusing to use simple and effective forms of birth control.

 

[croak]

<LI>place of occurrence
<LI>usual residence of patient (mother)
<LI>full maiden name of patient
<LI>medical record number and social security number of patient
<LI>Hispanic origin, if any, and race of patient
<LI>age of patient
<LI>education of patient
<LI>sex of fetus
<LI>patient married to father
<LI>previous deliveries to patient
<LI>single or plural delivery and order of plural delivery
<LI>date of delivery
<LI>date of last normal menses and physician's estimate of gestation
<LI>weight of fetus in grams
<LI>month of pregnancy care began (sic)
<LI>number of prenatal visits
<LI>when fetus died
<LI>congenital malformations, if any
<LI>events of labor and delivery
<LI>medical history for this pregnancy
<LI>other history for this pregnancy
<LI>obstetric procedures and method of delivery
<LI>autopsy
<LI>medical certification of cause of spontaneous fetal death
<LI>signature of attending physician or medical examiner including title, address and date signed
<LI>method of disposal of fetus
<LI>signature and address of funeral director or hospital representative
<LI>date received by registrar
<LI>registrar's signature
registration area and report numbers.

So, you have a miscarriage. Now, you're stuck on this:

obstetric procedures and method of delivery

Method of delivery? Isn't there just about one that can be performed at home? And what procedures did you do? I have no idea. Too bad. You have to know in 12 hours. Can't simply skip it either.


And I don't know who noticed, but:
Delegate John Cosgrove (R-78)
Lovely Republican.

 

[linwood]

Not even. Forced miscarriage is abortion, and under the law, abortion is not murder. How is it different if she does it herself, versus going in and having a doctor do it?

Pah told me in another thread it`s illegal to perform an abortion if you`re not a trained physician.

I dunno.

 

[Pah]

Forced miscarriage is murder....I agree that they should report all deaths to avoid abuse....I also agree that this is an exaggeration of that. They should give a grieving mother time to report it, but all deaths should be reported. That friend that Fluffy described as using miscarriage as a form of birth control should be locked up before she hurst herself or more unborn children....or anyone else for that matter.

• The bill is not about forced miscarriage
• I think that all parents should report each days activities for each child to avoid abuse. It is equivalent to what is called for in the bill
• The bill's purpose was to prevent fetuses being dumped in trash cans (according to the author).
• Death of what - how is a late mensus known to be a spontaneous abortion?
• The woman, by law, has sole control of her body and a forced miscarriage is her business

There are so many things wrong with the bill at so many levels. It is a blantant attempt to make an end-run around Roe v Wade.

 

[michel]

I am not sick with rage; what you have said merely goes to confirm what I always thought. Beuraucracy is the tool of those too frightened to face reality; it is a convenient way to hide from possible pain. Feel sorry for the bureaucrats; thet are to be pitied.
Please translate:

Silva in lumine
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in lumine
Stellarum est​

My latin isnt up to it; thanks, Michel​

 

[Jaymes]

I am not sick with rage; what you have said merely goes to confirm what I always thought. Beuraucracy is the tool of those too frightened to face reality; it is a convenient way to hide from possible pain. Feel sorry for the bureaucrats; thet are to be pitied.
Please translate:

Silva in lumine
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in lumine
Stellarum est​

My latin isnt up to it; thanks, Michel​

It's from E Nomine - Wolf (Das Tier in Mir). It translates as:

[font=&quot]In the lighted woods
Under the moon
Is my secret home
In the lighted woods
Under the stars
[/font]
The rest is a very nifty song about werewolves.

Anyway, back on topic. I found this letter in a livejournal community I frequent. The poster wrote Cosgrove about it, and he responded with this:

Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for twelve hours comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. After discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I will include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict this type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage, and I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman.

I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove

Honestly, I don't trust a word of that.

(A link to the original post, if anyone's interested.)

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I know someone who never bothers to use a condom. She forces herself to have a miscarriage because she is afraid of what her parents would say if she went and had an abortion. This has happened 11 times of which I know about. Maybe it is noone elses business but I find the idea of continuous, forced miscarriages pretty sick. I don't really know if it should be or shouldn't be - that was just my initial reaction upon hearing this.

I agree that being punished under this law would be totally unjust however.

Yes, but she could do with some sort of help...perhaps being knocked about the ears with a lump of wood to get the stupidity out.
In cases like the above it would bring something to the attention of someone, however, you're average person who has just miscarried hasn't done it intentionally, and would usually go at least to the hospital or their doctor. What the event has to do with the police - unless it's the result of a crime - is absolutely nothing.

 

[Godless Dave]

Pah told me in another thread it`s illegal to perform an abortion if you`re not a trained physician.

On someone else it's illegal, but not on yourself. What you do to your body is not the government's business (unless it involves taking illegal drugs, and even then in most states it's possession or distribution that's illegal, not actual consumption).

 

[Pah]

...
Anyway, back on topic. I found this letter in a livejournal community I frequent. The poster wrote Cosgrove about it, and he responded with this:


Honestly, I don't trust a word of that.

(A link to the original post, if anyone's interested.)

It has intended, unintended consequecences. Cosgrove is relying on a definition in another law that extends it to all products of conception. If he really want to hold to his stated purpose, he would have cleaned up the language and /or sponsored admendments to it. There has been enough analysis to know the faults of the bill - if he is not lying.

Bob

 

[huajiro]

That's lovely. Not the topic of this thread, though.

I was responding to something that was said to me....if you read the above posts before making a comment, it would be appreciated.

 

[Jaymes]

I was responding to something that was said to me....if you read the above posts before making a comment, it would be appreciated.

I did, and commented because it was dragging the thread off topic.

I apologize for being snappy when I did so.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Pah told me in another thread it`s illegal to perform an abortion if you`re not a trained physician.

I dunno.

Really? That is very interesting indeed...I wonder why?

 

[Ceridwen018]

Listen you guys--obviously, this guy is not talking about first or early second trimester miscarriages, which can occur before the woman even knows she's pregnant in some cases. In my opinion, it seems like you are all kind of hung up on that. Miscarriages only need to be reported to the authorities when there is an actual body.

Are you all saying that you do not agree with the reasons for this bill that are provided in the letter? Do you not think that the body needs to be properly disposed of? Do you not think that there is foul play in some cases which calls for an examination by a coroner?