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"I believe in science, I don't believe in God"

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You "got the impression I feel threatened by science" because I wrote "I've always used the hypothesis method to test the Bible?"

Because I wrote a popular thread on scientism and atheism?
I get the impression you feel threatened by science due to your continual rejection of science and the fact that you claim evidence and when asked, I never hear from you again on that claim.

Are you saying you tested the claims of the Bible? How? What evidence did you use in these tests?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If the majority of humans turned to cannibalism and paedophilia, how would skeptics need to understand what had happened from a secular, evolutionary perspective? They'd have to retcon evolution to say what the majority ruled was the will of determinist factors.

If the majority of humans turned to cannibalism and pedophilia, that would indicate some sort of societal breakdown on a global scale. From an evolutionary perspective, I think one can say that most of the species which have ever lived eventually died out. Humans will someday go extinct.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
our understanding will continue to increase over time, and who knows what we may discover that we cannot understand today?
Sure... but at the same time, we can recognize that we have no real understanding of "what we cannot understand today."

hundreds of years ago, people had no idea there were microscopic things inside us that were causing us harm, but that didn’t stop scientists from continuing their search of the unknown
But when you look at the work of someone like Ignaz Semmelweis, he wasn't just pulling assumptions out of his butt. He had real data. He established a strong correlation between hand-washing and disease prevention, even if he couldn't identify an exact mechanism. No religion I've ever come across has managed that much.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Christians say they know because of life changes, fulfilled prophecies, and miracles/healings.


I don't get the point you're making. Science says they don't know, they theories. Christians the only ones that say they know. From a scientific view, science accepts they don't know. Christians do.

As for life changes, fulfilled prophecies, and miracles they are confirmed biases and in the eye of the beholder. I've experienced them too, but I'm not christian. Fulfilled prophecies, though, Bahai say the same thing as probably others. So, that's an individual thing but not proven (if it were, believe me, science would be all over it).

But, still, not know what you're saying. Of course christians know by whatever reason. I was saying that science accepts it doesn't know.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Calm down Ecco. It's just a thread.
The 'argument' goes, 'If God created the universe, who created God' is offered up as a clever point.
But it's not because we cannot comprehend anything 'outside' of the natural world. How can we think
of 'something' when there's no time, no space and not even mathematics? So asking 'who created God'
isn't the same argument as 'Who created the natural world.'

Nonsense. Your lame argument comes down to "I can't explain it, therefore I'll pretend it's not a valid question".

The question is really simple: How can a fully formed, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity exist?








If we are talking about the Judea Christian God then the first creation account in Genesis 1 gives a
good sequence of events, if you filter out the repetitions, manner of writing and theological symbolism
of the six days, ie God created then heavens and then the earth. And you are now an observer upon
this earth - it is dark, sterile and oceanic. Then the skies clear, the continents rise, life appears on
earth first and then in the oceans. Finally man.

if you filter out all the nonsense you are left with nothing. You can't explain the origin of your god. Can you explain who wrote Genesis and how they knew?




Your version has no more validity than this...

African Creation Stories – Exploring Africa
HOW THE WORLD WAS CREATED FROM A DROP OF MILK
At the beginning there was a huge drop of milk
Then Doondari (God) came and he created the stone.
Then the stone created iron;
And iron created fire;
And fire created water;
And water created air.
The Doondari descended a second time. And he took the five elements
And he shaped them into man.
But man was proud.
Then Doondari created blindness and blindness defeated man.
But when blindness became too proud,
Doondari created sleep, and sleep defeated blindness;
But when sleep became too proud,
Doondari created worry, and worry defeated sleep;
But when worry became too proud,
Doondari created death, and death defeated worry.
But when death became too proud,
Doondari descended for the third time,
And he came as Gueno, the eternal one
And Gueno defeated death.
At least in this version, man is made from more than just dirt.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
From an evolutionary perspective, I think one can say that most of the species which have ever lived eventually died out. Humans will someday go extinct.
In the meantime, the religious will continue to insist that their god made everything just for them while ignoring that cockroaches were here three million years before us and will probably be here long after we are gone.

I guess that's one reason some of them prefer to believe that we were made before cockroaches.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Sure... but at the same time, we can recognize that we have no real understanding of "what we cannot understand today."


But when you look at the work of someone like Ignaz Semmelweis, he wasn't just pulling assumptions out of his butt. He had real data. He established a strong correlation between hand-washing and disease prevention, even if he couldn't identify an exact mechanism. No religion I've ever come across has managed that much.

hmmm, I think I have an understanding of what I cannot understand today.

it is absolutely nothing, pretty much the same amount of understanding of what I can understand today

in other words, I know that what I know is pretty close to nothing, but I am willing and have a desire
to learn

i am sure I will discover much wisdom here, mixed in with some insanity
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The most important tool in science is human consciousness. Our consciousness, makes us sensory aware of the world around us and allows us to analyze and collaborate, in terms of the philosophy of science. The problem is, science does not have a science based consensus theory for what conscious actually is. Science has no way to prove that this important tool, called consciousness, is calibrated properly.

The analogy is having a futuristic scale that has not been calibrated, since nobody can agree on how the internals work. We all use the scale, and we all drawn consensus conclusions, via the philosophy of science. But the results and conclusions may be shifted or biased away from actual center by the scale. If you do not know how to calibrate, how do you know what is the correct center? A mob appears to be acting, all on the same page, but the mob is calibrated for destruction and not construction. Herd instinct can tip the scale.

The Big Bang Theory is the standard model for cosmology. However, there are data and observations that creates questions about the long term viability of this model. The universe appears to have superstructures that began almost immediately. Although this and other observations create a problem, no other models has as much popularity with scientists due to its extensive research. So the consensus accepts that which is no longer complete, as the best model. This calibration is as much political, as it is based on science. If you go along with the consensus herd, there will be advantages that can tip the career scale in your favor. Self interest is a different calibration.

Another example, is PC and the "woke" culture, will not allow certain human sciences to be done, if the three or conclusions do not tell certain people, what they are supposed to hear. This is also not calibrated science, but has the thumb of politics, tipping the scales. Real science needs to look at all angles, apart from emotions, and not just the preferred ones due to emotions. Consensus can also form based on each researcher looking out for number one. Religion tries to stress eternal truth and law; steady state theory, so that thumbs are not on the scale of intermediary science, adding to the lack of temporal calibration. Science is a journey and not a destination or bus stop.

Science is not self sufficient, when it comes to the resources needed to do science. There are exceptions like Stark Industries of Ironman fame. Science, for the most part is beholden to others like government, industry and private foundations. Lack of calibration can occur, if there is an agenda from the giver and a quid pro quo is expected in terms of the funding. If you wish to continue doing your research you will need to play ball in ways that keep the gravy flowing. This can tip the scales and not be seen.

Science can be awesome, but it is too beholden for resources, to be calibrated for only truth. The flaws in the BB should have resulted in it being sent to a museum. In the void, new innovation would occur. But too many jobs and careers depend on it, so it lingers and stands in the way, since self interest is part of the calibration of science consciousness. The horse and buggy did not wish the iron horse well.

Religion actually knows more about consciousness than does science. One learns the workings of consciousness, through introspection, meditation and self observation. Science admits it canny be see from the outside but it needs to be seen from the inside. If you understand the mechanism through self reflection, you can increase human consciousness capacity, such a Yoga masters who can stop their heart. This is done from the inside. Peer pressure or better funding will not make this work.

Buddha to name someone special, was very aware of how consciousness worked and saw ways to transcend his own time. He saw the outer world, that science depends on, as an illusion, due to lack of the calibration, if one remains only extroverted; outer world, in terms of consciousness. His followers gave up the outer world of the ego to seek the inner self from which consciousness emerges. If Buddha had then became a scientist, science would reached steady state faster; truth that can overcome the pressure of the ego to compromise for it ego-centric sake.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I get the impression you feel threatened by science due to your continual rejection of science and the fact that you claim evidence and when asked, I never hear from you again on that claim.

Are you saying you tested the claims of the Bible? How? What evidence did you use in these tests?

I use the hypothesis method--if X is true, Y should be the result. For an example, the Bible promises needs met via tithing.

We know it is illogical to gain more income by giving income away, rather than say, investing it in equities or business. I've seen the tithe (and offerings) principle work so many times that I've concluded the instances go beyond coincidence. It is highly statistically unlikely that dozens of times I've received unexpected income shortly after giving money away (sometimes sacrificially/generously).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If the majority of humans turned to cannibalism and pedophilia, that would indicate some sort of societal breakdown on a global scale. From an evolutionary perspective, I think one can say that most of the species which have ever lived eventually died out. Humans will someday go extinct.

I find that concept not very comforting, since there is no lever you mentioned against such an eventuality. In pleasant contrast, the Bible talks about conscience, good governing, laws and more--particularly Jesus providing revelation and transformation to born agains--as offsetting poor morals.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I don't get the point you're making. Science says they don't know, they theories. Christians the only ones that say they know. From a scientific view, science accepts they don't know. Christians do.

As for life changes, fulfilled prophecies, and miracles they are confirmed biases and in the eye of the beholder. I've experienced them too, but I'm not christian. Fulfilled prophecies, though, Bahai say the same thing as probably others. So, that's an individual thing but not proven (if it were, believe me, science would be all over it).

But, still, not know what you're saying. Of course christians know by whatever reason. I was saying that science accepts it doesn't know.

Did you trust Jesus for eternal life? Did you communicate with Jesus, and He with you?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
hmmm, I think I have an understanding of what I cannot understand today.

it is absolutely nothing, pretty much the same amount of understanding of what I can understand today

in other words, I know that what I know is pretty close to nothing, but I am willing and have a desire
to learn

i am sure I will discover much wisdom here, mixed in with some insanity
I think you're missing my point.

There are plenty of things beyond the knowledge of humanity, but if someone starts spouting off knowledge claims about things beyond the knowledge of humanity, we can rightfully say that he's full of it.

Even if - somehow - the person's unjustified wild guess wound up being coincidentally true, it was still the case that the person was full of it when they made their original knowledge claim.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I find that concept not very comforting, since there is no lever you mentioned against such an eventuality. In pleasant contrast, the Bible talks about conscience, good governing, laws and more--particularly Jesus providing revelation and transformation to born agains--as offsetting poor morals.

I don't think the Bible has any monopoly on talking about conscience, good governing, or laws. There were philosophers who predated Jesus and came to similar realizations. It doesn't mean that they were helpless people who needed God to tell them what to do. People learn through trial and error, such as learning that poor morals can lead to bad outcomes for a community and a society.

There are many concepts which aren't very comforting. For example, our own mortality, as most people fear death and don't find it very comforting. But it also appears we don't have any real choice in the matter either.

I actually believe that a case can be made for being more at peace and comforted by the concept of a godless universe, as opposed to a universe supposedly governed by a sentient, powerful being who is actively involved in human affairs. Some people believe that "everything happens for a reason" and that everything is all part of some "divine plan" by some powerful entity who "loves" us. That belief hits a few serious roadblocks right out of the gate.

By not believing in such things, one doesn't have to expend energy or become anxious trying to come up with reasons for things which we can't explain.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The most important tool in science is human consciousness. Our consciousness, makes us sensory aware of the world around us and allows us to analyze and collaborate, in terms of the philosophy of science. The problem is, science does not have a science based consensus theory for what conscious actually is. Science has no way to prove that this important tool, called consciousness, is calibrated properly.
That's really meaningless and nonsensical. Carried further, it leads to more nonsense like "we are just avatars in a supercomputer.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The Big Bang Theory is the standard model for cosmology. However, there are data and observations that creates questions about the long term viability of this model. The universe appears to have superstructures that began almost immediately. Although this and other observations create a problem, no other models has as much popularity with scientists due to its extensive research. So the consensus accepts that which is no longer complete, as the best model.


The consensus accepted heliocentricism even though there were gaps in the knowledge of the finer points of orbits. Understanding that orbits are elliptical rather than circular improved the theory, it did not invalidate it.

The consensus accepted the concept of atoms even though there were gaps in the knowledge of the true components of atoms. Further research led to the knowledge of quarks. This deeper knowledge did not invalidate the concept atoms, it enhanced our understanding of them.

Your argument has been posed for years by religious people who have problems with science. In a nutshell, you are saying that science doesn't know everything and is therefore suspect.


This calibration is as much political, as it is based on science. If you go along with the consensus herd, there will be advantages that can tip the career scale in your favor. Self interest is a different calibration.

Here again, you are pulling a dead rabbit out of a hat. In a nutshell, you are saying that science does not allow alternate views like creation, and people who favor creationism are ridiculed. Rightly so.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Another example, is PC and the "woke" culture, will not allow certain human sciences to be done, if the three or conclusions do not tell certain people, what they are supposed to hear. This is also not calibrated science, but has the thumb of politics, tipping the scales.

Please give an example of which sciences are not allowed to be done.

Actually, I can think of one. Stem cell research. Who stopped that? Hmm. Oh yeah. It was religious people - including Catholics.

Religion tries to stress eternal truth and law; steady state theory, so that thumbs are not on the scale of intermediary science, adding to the lack of temporal calibration.

  • By "eternal truth and law" are you referring to the notion that the wood in a railing can affect the spots on goats?
  • By "eternal truth and law" are you referring to the biblical references on the proper reasons to own and beat slaves?
  • By "eternal truth and law" are you referring to the acceptance of handing out the virgin daughters of the soldiers of a defeated army to the soldiers of the victorious army while killing their mothers and brothers?

Science is a journey and not a destination or bus stop.
Then why are you knocking the journey with comments like "So the consensus accepts that which is no longer complete, as the best model"?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Science can be awesome, but it is too beholden for resources, to be calibrated for only truth. The flaws in the BB should have resulted in it being sent to a museum. In the void, new innovation would occur. But too many jobs and careers depend on it, so it lingers and stands in the way, since self interest is part of the calibration of science consciousness. The horse and buggy did not wish the iron horse well.

More apologetics nonsense. Scientific knowledge is always questioned - by scientists. There doesn't need to be a void.

The consensus was that the universe was immense and unchanging. That consensus was not challenged by politics and it certainly was not challenged by religion. It was challenged by another scientist - Hubble. One man, working against the established "consensus". He did what any scientist must do. He provided evidence.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Religion actually knows more about consciousness than does science.

Please tell us something that religion knows about consciousness that science does not.

Buddha to name someone special, was very aware of how consciousness worked and saw ways to transcend his own time.

Religious shamans discovered mescaline and psilocybin and tetrahydrocannabinol many, many years ago. They used these substances and more to transcend time and space.

If Buddha had then became a scientist, science would reached steady state faster

I would hope science never reaches a steady state.
 
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