I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[Trailblazer]

The pagan satanic religion built with the fiction of Lord God demanding human sacrifice for pleasure and profit and the righteous merciful religion of God the Father of Jesus and creator of the Universe that never accepted any blood sacrifices. People can buy the approval of that religious Mafia gang leader called Lord God but the real God cannot be bought for blood or money.

Well said.... I do not believe that there is a separate God called the Lord God. I believe that the Old Testament is anthropomorphic so the God you call the Lord God is just a man-made God, a fictitious character men made up, not the one true God who is the Father of Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

If that's the case why did God bother creating us?

Of course, a lot of what religions try to do is explain why we're here and to tell us why God bothered. And each religion has a slightly different explanation. Some religions don't care what the others say. Baha'is try to reconcile all those differences and still not make God to blame.

 

[John53]

Of course, a lot of what religions try to do is explain why we're here and to tell us why God bothered. And each religion has a slightly different explanation. Some religions don't care what the others say. Baha'is try to reconcile all those differences and still not make God to blame.

I prefer the Calvinist God, he predestines what you'll do then punishes you for doing it. A ridiculous system but at least they admit they're worshipping an evil being.

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course, if we find a solution to the problem of theological human free will (which omnipotence and omniscience rule out) we still have the problem of how humans could have truly free will anyway ─ we can't make decisions independently of our brain's structures, decision-making functions, and life experiences anyway. I can't think of a way for God to escape an analogous problem either.

Yeah, we put limits on ourselves. If I do this it's going to hurt me. If I do this it's going to hurt them. I care about them so I won't do that. Or... I don't care about them so I will do that. Then we make laws. Religion gives us laws. All meant to keep us from doing some things. I don't know why some people use the words "free will"? Why not just that we have choices to make. Some good. Some bad.

 

[CG Didymus]

I prefer the Calvinist God, he predestines what you'll do then punishes you for doing it. A ridiculous system but at least they admit they're worshipping an evil being.

I don't know a couple of dueling Gods would work too. Except that neither one knows the outcome. The Christian God already knows. He created humans and his own adversary knowing what he would do and knowing that in the end he would have to destroy him. So why let this adversary go for so long raising havoc? That God is just playing games.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus was a human sacrifice to God,. If it had any point, it was that God would then forgive humans their sins, Since this is expressed conditionally ─ that it was necessary for Jesus to do this ─ and since it wouldn't have happened otherwise, I'm glad no one I personally know has God's moral values.

That's the way I heard it. Jesus was the only one that could pay the penalty for our sin. If Baha'is say otherwise, that's okay with me, because I never liked that beliefs anyway. But then the Baha'is have a problem making what is said in the NT fit into their beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks, so glad you see and teach that Paul is a false Apostle!

I don't think that the Baha'i Faith calls Paul a false prophet. And they don't believe the world and humans will be completely destroyed. They believe a new world order is going to be ushered in bringing peace and harmony and the unity of all people.

 

[blü 2]

Please explain HOW knowing what is going to happen CAUSES it to happen.

Knowing,is only part of it. What God did was deliberately create the situation while knowing what must happen as a result─ the entirety of all the chains of cause+effect, and if there are deviations from that through quantum randomness, perfectly knowing of them as well.

What God knows was not a deliberate act.

But what God DID while knowing ─ create the universe fully cognizant of all the consequences ─ is indeed a deliberate act.

 

[blü 2]

LORD GOD is NOT GOD. The first sentence in the Bible....does it say Lord God? No, it says GOD.
God and Lord God are 2 entirely different Gods and only one is real and He is not the one that likes to see children burned alive as a sacrifice.

The fact that the bible says no such thing doesn't matter in the face of your belief.

Okay, what you say is what you believe and that's what suits you ─ so I leave you to it.

 

[blü 2]

That's the way I heard it. Jesus was the only one that could pay the penalty for our sin. If Baha'is say otherwise, that's okay with me, because I never liked that beliefs anyway. But then the Baha'is have a problem making what is said in the NT fit into their beliefs.

The more you look at the NT, the more its strands go their own way, so I'd guess the average thoughtful person would have a problem making sense of what's said and implied in the NT.

 

[Tiberius]

The only reason humans will do what God knows we will do is because God knows what we will do, but God's knowledge does not cause us to do what we do.

I explained that to @Tiberius in this post: #5844 Trailblazer, Today at 3:28 PM

And I've responded to this many times, so I have no idea why you keep bringing up the same flawed argument.

I NEVER SAID GOD'S KNOWLEDGE IS WHAT FORCES US TO DO THINGS.

God is only responsible for creating a world in which evil can exist, but good can also exist and evil is just the absence of good. If humans were not evil only good would exist.

The absence of good is indifference, not evil.

Good is when you see someone fall, and you help them up.

If Good didn't exist, then people would see someone fall and just walk past without helping.

That is not evil. Evil would be seeing someone fall, then kicking them while they are down and stealing their wallet.

So what? Do you know more than God about how to create a world? Could you have created the world better?

It would seem so.

God created this world with a purpose in mind and that is why it is the way it is.

Except no one knows what this purpose is. Always struck me that this kind of claim was just something believers said so they could pretend their faith was justified.

 

[rational experiences]

Who preach falsely?

Humans do.

Who is a human?

A natural being only who thinks.

Who invented the science of God?

Earth products only?

Men did. Human brothers who give O the entity each product a science as named products.

Is a pretty basic human teaching don't name God. As you did. You changed the cold fusion of God supporting life aa dusts and nuclear gas burnt us to death.

By fission. Nuclear change.

So you preach science. O earth mass owned it's own spirit gases released.

O God terms. No man is involved. Man however wanted to practice God science gave human man thinking identification to sources. Of the planets natural history in space

A human baby man adult of women took his mind into evil thoughts.

Pretty basic man owned science teaching. Life on earth nature garden gained an evicted body...animals sacrificed on God earths stone altar seen today as UFO phenomena. And humans. All sacrificed.

Then self mind possessed brain changed humans who talk about chemical induced biological rapture say God will save us.

Yet they shouldn't be having rapture as it's not natural. But like any drug bio change you like the experience.

So you claim a science chemical mass gas and mass chemical change should occur. You should get human life sacrificed and saved because you believe in the sciences of God.

As a human mind biology theoried invented it by human thoughts. Men and woman by conscious life knows believe science so a portion of natural humans conscious expression is gone.

So women owning baby man life sacrificed get attacked also as men humans invented the sciences.

Yet none of you Idealise the advice about human science causes for what reason?

Life sacrificed did not save your life and it is still sacrificed dying from early age death. Your consciousness aportioned is gone you know it is. You agree it's gone and claim man's supported holy water life allowed me to still exist.

Yet that water mass was owned by earth mass by nature garden insects animals and humans combined.

Not just the man human. Baby man human adult who affected all human consciousness.

Proves that the human consciousness is possessed by old science causes. By human belief today. By its non ability to self reason as a single human self identity.

As I did. I did not like the co joined human behaviour of arguments about a science only topic.

By human chosen thought behaviour involving beliefs and rituals.

Gods heavens spirits are owned historic by cold space womb vacuum and hot earth Cooling God mass. The heavens.

As earth was recooling a portion of heated mass involving heavenly cooling in the same incident.

We lived inside of a cooled evolved heavens exact as human biology in life where we think as the human only. Cooled evolved atmosphere.

Men of science changed the ground Rock gases that caused the spirit gas of God earth above as below to be sacrificed is not any human life.

Water our life spirit living support was mass evaporated which belonged to nature animals insects food humans and had to cool sacrificed ignited flame burning gas.

Was the teaching. Holy water saved life.

The God earth saviour ice is also not any man.

CH gases not a human man.
Water mass going above gases not a human man.
Ice saviour not a human man.

 

[Trailblazer]

The more you look at the NT, the more its strands go their own way, so I'd guess the average thoughtful person would have a problem making sense of what's said and implied in the NT.

Do you believe that the OT is more accurate than the NT and if so why?

 

[Triumph]

Not that I believe the stories are necessarily true, but God does hurt people. He sends plagues, floods, earthquakes, fire from heaven, sends his people to kill everyone including woman and children in one city, he sends bears to maul children etc. Which backs up the verse that says that God sends disasters. But, supposedly, it's his judgement against evil people or some kind of test for his "good" people. But I have no problem believing all these things were just fictional stories.

You are still thinking that the Lord God the Jews worship is God? There are 2 different Gods discussed in the Bible. Abraham invented the Jewish God to exalt himself to a bloodline throne of rule. So as the Lord (and even his wife Sarah called Abraham Lord), Abraham was the voice of this imaginary God so whatever Abraham wanted to do, he said Lord God wanted it. The Lord God crown was passed to his bloodline sons and they kept the Lord God pretense going to retain power and the throne. The King Lord Gods demanded war and slaughter of women and children They make fictional stories to make their Lord God as violent as the other countries fake Gods.
God had nothing to do with any of it and sent John and Jesus to stop their killing people.
We are given a planet to sustain our biological needs and an amazing brain to discern the safest places to live. God has nothing to do with people dying in natural disasters. People make choices as to where they live and how they live and accidents happen.
Our life is a journey that has an end in this biological body on Earth. Rebirth is a gift to those worthy to attain it.

 

[blü 2]

Do you believe that the OT is more accurate than the NT and if so why?

Historically accurate? Well, a lot of the Tanakh is folktale and folk history. It's doubtful whether there ever was an Egyptian Captivity, but there was an Egyptian presence in the Levant for a number of centuries; there's no contemporary evidence or archeological evidence of Solomon's splendour, but there was a place called Sheba and it would be usual for it to have a monarch. Much if not all of Daniel is transparently storytelling but Daniel is a reflection of the Babylonian Captivity and the civilizing influence it ended up having on Israel. It's at the least a remarkable cultural document.

The NT is far more problematic. There doesn't have to be an historical Jesus to account for it, for example ─ and though I think there possibly was, there's no clincher either way. With the further problem that if there was, none of the NT authors ever met him, there's nothing like a biography of him in Paul, there's only one biography and that's Mark, used as template by the authors of Matthew and Luke to add, subtract and vary, and more loosely by the author of John, who wrote sixty - seventy years after the traditional date of Jesus' death. In the result you have three distinct kinds of Jesus ─ the gnostic Jesus of Paul and of John, who pre-existed in heaven with God, and made the material universe; the ordinary Jew of Mark who only becomes the Son of God when adopted on his baptism; and the unhistorical pantomime tales in Matthew and Luke whose Jesus results from the divine insemination of a virgin. All of that stands between us and whatever history is actually there; it seems generally accepted that there was a Jewish cult of Jesus such as Paul alludes to, but we know very little about it. And what are we to make of the later alternative gospels? The books of sayings?

And the incoherence of the message: all of a sudden after well over a millennium you're going to need an intermediary instead of praying directly to the Jewish God. Ahm, why? What changed? And why was Jesus on a mission that MUST end in his death? WHY must Jesus die (quite horrifically)? What could his death achieve that his omnipotent Father couldn't achieve without bloodshed? (And as for the Trinity, which isn't in the NT at all, pshaw!)

 

[Trailblazer]

And I've responded to this many times, so I have no idea why you keep bringing up the same flawed argument.

I NEVER SAID GOD'S KNOWLEDGE IS WHAT FORCES US TO DO THINGS.

Yes, you are saying that because you said if God knows the future, we have no free choice.
If we have to do what God knows we will do that means that what God knows is forcing us to do what God knows we will do and we have no choice but to do what God knows we will do so it means we have no free will to choose.

Tiberius said: ↑
No, my point was that IF there was a God who knows the future with 100% accuracy, then we can not have free choice.

1. God knows the future, we have no free choice, we can not be held accountable for what we do.
2. God does not know the future, humans can freely chose what they will do, and no one can see their choices with 100% accuracy ahead of time.

We can choose Option 1 or option 2, but choosing one eliminates all aspects of the other.​

If God knows the future we sill have free choice. We can choose whatever we want to choose and God has always known what that will be because God's knowledge surrounds the realities of all things. Put another way, whatever we choose will be what God has always known we will choose. There is no logical connection between what God knows we will choose and what we choose, none at all. God is not in the material world bound by time as we are.

The absence of good is indifference, not evil.

Good is when you see someone fall, and you help them up.

If Good didn't exist, then people would see someone fall and just walk past without helping.

That is not evil. Evil would be seeing someone fall, then kicking them while they are down and stealing their wallet.

I did not say that good does not exist, I said that evil is the absence of good. Indifference is also not good but it is not as bad as evil. Evil is what someone does evil things, indifference is when one does not do anything at all when something needs to be done.

Yes, good is when you see them fall and help them up.
Indifference is when you see the fall and don't do anything at all.
Evil is when you see them fall and kick them and steal their wallet.

It would seem so.

How do you KNOW you know more than God about how to create a world and you could have created the world better? Have you ever created a world and do you know what it would entail? That would be like me saying I know how to build a house better than my building contractor when I do not know the first thing about building construction.

Except no one knows what this purpose is. Always struck me that this kind of claim was just something believers said so they could pretend their faith was justified.

God created this world for a purpose. The reason we have to go through life in this world is explained in this book called The Purpose of Physical Reality.

Why do spiritual beings--human souls--begin their lives in the physical world? According to well-known Baha'i author, scholar, and educator John Hatcher, the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth. The Purpose of Physical Reality examines the components of this classroom to show how everyday experience leads to spiritual insight. Viewing life in this way, we can learn to appreciate the overall justice of God's plan and the subtle interplay between human free will and divine assistance in unleashing human potential. The idea of physical reality as a divine teaching device not only prepares us for further progress in the life beyond, it also provides practical advice about how to attain spiritual and intellectual understanding while we are living on earth.

https://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Physical-Reality-John-Hatcher/dp/1931847231

 

[Trailblazer]

Historically accurate? Well, a lot of the Tanakh is folktale and folk history. It's doubtful whether there ever was an Egyptian Captivity, but there was an Egyptian presence in the Levant for a number of centuries; there's no contemporary evidence or archeological evidence of Solomon's splendour, but there was a place called Sheba and it would be usual for it to have a monarch. Much if not all of Daniel is transparently storytelling but Daniel is a reflection of the Babylonian Captivity and the civilizing influence it ended up having on Israel. It's at the least a remarkable cultural document.

The NT is far more problematic. There doesn't have to be an historical Jesus to account for it, for example ─ and though I think there possibly was, there's no clincher either way. With the further problem that if there was, none of the NT authors ever met him, there's nothing like a biography of him in Paul, there's only one biography and that's Mark, used as template by the authors of Matthew and Luke to add, subtract and vary, and more loosely by the author of John, writing sixty - seventy years after the traditional date of Jesus' death. In the result you have three distinct kinds of Jesus ─ the gnostic Jesus of Paul and of John, who pre-existed in heaven with God, and made the material universe; the ordinary Jew of Mark who only becomes the Son of God when adopted on his baptism; and the unhistorical pantomime tall tales in Matthew and Luke whose Jesus results from the divine insemination of a virgin. All of that stands between us and whatever history is actually there; it seems generally accepted that there was a Jewish cult of Jesus such as Paul alludes to, but we know very little about it. And what are we to make of the later alternative gospels? The books of sayings?

And the incoherence of the message: all of a sudden after well over a millennium you're going to need an intermediary instead of praying directly to the Jewish God. Ahm, why? What changed? And why was Jesus on a mission that MUST end in his death? WHY must Jesus die (quite horrifically)? What could his death achieve that his omnipotent Father couldn't achieve without bloodshed? (And as for the Trinity, which isn't in the NT at all, pshaw!)

Thanks. I don't know the Bible well at all, as I as not raised as a Christian and was never a Christian, so I never studied the Bible. Everything I have learned I have learned piecemeal from what people have posted on forums during the last nine years and from what I have read of the Bible to be able to converse with people, mostly from the NT.

The whole Bible seems like a Pandora's Box to me. It raises more questions than providing answers. Luckily my religious beliefs do not rest upon the Bible being completely accurate in all the details.

 

[blü 2]

The whole Bible seems like a Pandora's Box to me. It raises more questions than providing answers. Luckily my religious beliefs do not rest upon the Bible being completely accurate in all the details.

If clarity and accuracy are your goal, that's a good start!

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are still thinking that the Lord God the Jews worship is God? There are 2 different Gods discussed in the Bible. Abraham invented the Jewish God to exalt himself to a bloodline throne of rule.

No, no..
There is only One G-d that the Bible refers to, and that is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe and all it contains.

It is people that claim that G-d is this or that .. or that we should believe this or that.
satan encourages division, for obvious reasons. We should be constantly aware of this.
G-d belongs to nether 'east' nor 'west'.
Wherever you see the titles of nations in 'a church', then beware

Church of England .. Russian Orthodox Church etc. etc.
G-d does not look at our tribe, but at our hearts.

 

[blü 2]

G-d does not look at our tribe, but at our hearts.

That's what I'd do in those shoes.