"I don't consent to your prayers."

[Brian2]

It's creepy.

If you do it in private and don't tell anyone, odds are that nobody will know, but it's still creepy.

Praying is both a communal and private practice.

Well, I'm glad you're here to tell us God's thoughts. Quite a feat.

It's easy when God has told us what He wants us to do.

I don't think that's what prayer is.

I didn't say that prayer is thinking about a person. I was asking a question.
"Do you think that thinking well of a person without their knowing it is aggrandizement for the thinker?"
If it is not aggrandizement for the thinker then how is praying in private aggrandizement for the prayer?

What do you think the function of prayer is?

Say your friend is sick and you pray that they'll get better soon. What do you think your prayer accomplishes?

Do you think that you're telling God something he doesn't already know? Do you think God will change his plan just because you ask him to?

Do you think prayer has an effect or not? There are weird implications either way.

My prayer can have an effect on what God does. This has happened in examples in the Bible and we are told it can happen.
Prayer is not just a list of requests for God to do however, it is a 2 way communication with God and is more about God telling us things that we might not know. We can't inform God of anything really but we can be honest with God and get things off our chest with God and God can use those times to heal us and change us.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How? Unless someone is praying for you to die why would you even care? And even then, I don't believe in their goddess anyway so they can pray what they want.

Because I don't want to encourage someone to pray to a false god.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My prayer can have an effect on what God does. This has happened in examples in the Bible and we are told it can happen.

If you think you can know better than God enough to change God's mind, then this is either extreme self-puffery on your part or a pretty major condemnation of God.

 

[KWED]

Then I don't see what your issue is.

Why am I not surprised?

 

[KWED]

What if the future is: if they pray then I will have mercy. The idea is God is at the ready waiting for our prayers. That's the future, but it's not fixed.

If god is infallibly omniscient, then the future must be fixed.
If the future contains someone praying for an outcome and that outcome happening, then that future is fixed. The prayer does not change the outcome. It was always part of the original, fixed outcome.

 

[KWED]

Why would you care about that? Are you trying to control other people's beliefs?

People should generally be honest and rational. Don't you agree?

 

[KWED]

My prayer can have an effect on what God does. This has happened in examples in the Bible and we are told it can happen.

Then your version of god is not infallibly omniscient. Logic 101.

 

[1213]

No, I'm saying that the fact you would ever spend time on RF tells us that you don't really believe that prayer has any effect, so why do it to people who don't even want it?

I believe that praying works as told in the Bible. Why would that mean that I could not be here also?

 

[Brian2]

If you think you can know better than God enough to change God's mind, then this is either extreme self-puffery on your part or a pretty major condemnation of God.

Why do you think that I think I know better than God?
Why do you think I am changing God's mind?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that praying works as told in the Bible.

Meaning what, exactly?

Why would that mean that I could not be here also?

If you could actually save lives through prayer - a low-effort activity that involves zero risk or expense to you - then spending time not praying costs lives.

Spending your time here on RF means either:

- you don't care about those lives you could have saved, or
- you don't actually believe prayer has an effect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do you think that I think I know better than God?

I don't, but that's the implication if you make a suggestion to God and, in response, God does what you suggest instead of his original plan.

Why do you think I am changing God's mind?

I don't, but you told us that this is what you're doing when you said "My prayer can have an effect on what God does."

 

[Brian2]

If god is infallibly omniscient, then the future must be fixed.
If the future contains someone praying for an outcome and that outcome happening, then that future is fixed. The prayer does not change the outcome. It was always part of the original, fixed outcome.

It is rubbish to say that knowing the future is the same as forcing it to happen.

 

[Brian2]

Then your version of god is not infallibly omniscient. Logic 101.

Yes the infallible omniscient deterministic argument is one of the examples of wrong logic in logic 101.

 

[Brian2]

I don't, but that's the implication if you make a suggestion to God and, in response, God does what you suggest instead of his original plan.

You seem to be assuming that God is doing everything originally.

I don't, but you told us that this is what you're doing when you said "My prayer can have an effect on what God does."

God may have been going to do nothing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You seem to be assuming that God is doing everything originally.

Not necessarily, just that he has a plan for his own actions.

A plan that you ask him to change.

God may have been going to do nothing.

So "nothing" was his plan and you ask him to deviate from it. This suggests you think you know better than God.

And then you say that prayer sometimes works. This suggests that God sometimes agrees with you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

People should generally be honest and rational. Don't you agree?

According to whose definition of rational?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Because I don't want to encourage someone to pray to a false god.

You're not. They're going to do it either way, it has nothing to do with you.

 

[Brian2]

Not necessarily, just that he has a plan for his own actions.

A plan that you ask him to change.

Maybe someone's answered prayer is part of His plans. He knows all that He will do and knows how He will answer each prayer. Whether He answers as I want or not does not mean He has not answered or will not answer.

So "nothing" was his plan and you ask him to deviate from it. This suggests you think you know better than God.

And then you say that prayer sometimes works. This suggests that God sometimes agrees with you.

If I tell God that He is wrong and then tell Him what to do the answer He might give is to show me how I am wrong.
Prayer sometimes works as you have prayed. This suggests that you have prayed in accordance with the will of God. But whether God would have done as you request without your prayer you don't know.
But we keep communicating with God and it is for our benefit that we talk to God and listen to God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe someone's answered prayer is part of His plans.

This has interesting implications for the issue of free will.

He knows all that He will do and knows how He will answer each prayer. Whether He answers as I want or not does not mean He has not answered or will not answer.

But you said that your prayers are sometimes effective. What do you mean by "effective" if not "God was originally going to do one thing (or nothing), but because of my input, God is going to do what I suggest instead"?

If I tell God that He is wrong and then tell Him what to do the answer He might give is to show me how I am wrong.
Prayer sometimes works as you have prayed. This suggests that you have prayed in accordance with the will of God. But whether God would have done as you request without your prayer you don't know.
But we keep communicating with God and it is for our benefit that we talk to God and listen to God.

So you don't actually think that prayer is effective?

 

[dybmh]

If god is infallibly omniscient, then the future must be fixed.
If the future contains someone praying for an outcome and that outcome happening, then that future is fixed. The prayer does not change the outcome. It was always part of the original, fixed outcome.

"If A then B else C" can be known without the result ( B or C ) being fixed. Omniscience isn't violated. The known result is B or C.