I give up fighting Islamophobia

[Tiapan]

We have "trouble", alcohol, unemployment, regular incarceration and suicide are key issues with some of our indigenous countrymen at remote stations.
One issue that made the head lines recently was under age sex and marriage in these remote settlements.
In Australia age of consent is 16 and adult sex with anyone under 18 is forbidden and defined as pedophilia.
However this society of Countrymen has existed for over 40,000 years, making it (and the bushmen of the Kalahari) the worlds oldest continuous social system, outlasting the combined total of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Mogul, Indian, Chinese, British and American empires.
The average life of my countrymen was around 30-40 years, because of the low life expectancy, to survive breeding had to be initiated early eg 12 years old and intra-family and multiple wife marriage was necessary because of the harsh environment and the surviving male to female ratio.
Do we have the right to tell those, of this most successful society on earth, how to do their business?
I see this situation as very similar to the tribal middle east of the dark ages.
We take the modern moral High Ground, because we believe in the child's right to enjoy their childhood, prior to entering the breeding cycle, but this is a luxury of the modern age and is a vastly different situation to that which existed historically.
It does not mean this practice should continue as the pressures that cause it, have mostly been removed with the rise in standard of living.

Cheers

 

[faroukfarouk]

It is hard to know this for certain as information is not great from the era. I would assume that the majority was Abrahamic though. The most populated areas would have been mostly Abrahamic. The South which was site of Christian/Jewish conflict shortly before Muhammed's time between Himyar and Axum so can be assumed to be majority Abrahamic. The North, as the domain of Ghassanid and Lakhmids, was almost certainly mostly Christian. The coastal West, must have had a fair number of Abrahamic adherents due to trade etc.

It is very hard to be certain, but I would the majority of Arabs followed Abrahamic faiths. Much of the teachings of Islam seem to make more sense in this historical context anyway. But, I suppose, it can't be proved one way or the other.

No its not difficult.Study the different tribes that were in Arabia and then find out how many tribes took allegiance to the Kaaba.
The total of all Christians and Jews were just a drop in the ocean in comparison to the total population of all the tribes.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I think that to a certain degree, he's right. Far too many people try to judge other cultures and other times by the moral views of today, as though we've got it right and anyone who disagrees with us has it wrong. From our perspective, Mohammed was a pedophile because his actions fall outside of our modern social norms. In his own society however, what he did was relatively normal and accepted. You can't really hold him accountable to social norms that didn't exist until hundreds of years after he died.

That said, yes, the religious claims about the Qur'an are absurd, just like the religious claims about the Bible are absurd. That's true no matter how you look at the social implications of the actions of ancient people.

Yes the modern definition of pedophile no doubt makes all our forefathers pedophiles.
At the same token the modern definition of taking an innocent life is murder but the aborting of an innocent baby is moral.
We have reached such heights in modern times that man has a problem of differentiating between moral and immoral.What your forefathers deemed as moral modern man deem it as immoral and what your forefathers deem as immoral modern man deem it as moral.
The bottom line is modern man is reaching the depths of degradation.
Modern man morals has now gone to the dogs.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi farouk,

Well, it seems we might just have to agree to disagree on the point concerning understanding the culture of the day. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you must understand something about the culture that existed when the book was created. For most books I'd agree. But Muslims claim that THIS book is timeless. If Muslims stopped saying that, then I'd agree that a cultural understanding would be appropriate. So, unless I misunderstand your point, it seems like on the culture question we simply disagree.

As for my free will... Well I was born into a culture that was not religious, but that put a high value on critical thinking and evidence, and that is suspicious about taking anything "on faith". Using your logic, this is the culture that Allah decided to place me in. Given my upbringing, I see all scripture as suspicious, because scripture declares itself to be divinely inspired, but there is no evidence. I could rewrite society's well known moral teachings in my own words, and declare them to be divinely inspired, and I would have as much direct evidence as you do. The religious person's only "evidence" is tautology, in other words no actual evidence at all.

So, IF Allah is as described in the Quran (a possibility that I'll agree is remotely, remotely, remotely possible), then I stand by my claim that he is cruel, at least to me - because I am doing nothing more than using the brain he gave me, as I demand evidence for the extraordinary claims in scripture.

icehorse
No doubt you have a mind of your own.Now don't let it bug you because its to do with your upbringing.I see you confirming your problem.Its to do with your suspicion and i did warn you earlier to keep an open mind.
Nontheless let me ask you a simple question.
What was your moral objective in reading the Noble Quraan?

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes the modern definition of pedophile no doubt makes all our forefathers pedophiles.
At the same token the modern definition of taking an innocent life is murder but the aborting of an innocent baby is moral.
We have reached such heights in modern times that man has a problem of differentiating between moral and immoral.What your forefathers deemed as moral modern man deem it as immoral and what your forefathers deem as immoral modern man deem it as moral.
The bottom line is modern man is reaching the depths of degradation.
Modern man morals has now gone to the dogs.

Moral challenges become that much more difficult with bigger populations, better understanding of the world and the correspondingly more complex choices that people find themselves with.

It does sometimes give the appearance of degeneration when it is in fact an improvement of moral perception.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Moral challenges become that much more difficult with bigger populations, better understanding of the world and the correspondingly more complex choices that people find themselves with.

It does sometimes give the appearance of degeneration when it is in fact an improvement of moral perception.

There is an imbalance in the human sex ratio.More females than males.Islam gives you a solution and that is polygamy.
Modern man says no polygamy is immoral so their solution is to make their daughters prostitutes.
Now that is what you call improvement of moral perception.
From a moral perspective the West is going to the gutters and they are no indifferent to the Arab culture before the advent of Islam.

 

[Augustus]

No its not difficult.Study the different tribes that were in Arabia and then find out how many tribes took allegiance to the Kaaba.
The total of all Christians and Jews were just a drop in the ocean in comparison to the total population of all the tribes.

The Kabaa in Mecca as a major place of pilgrimage is something completely missing from non-Muslim history. If a large majority of the Arabs saw it as sacred, why did no one else know about it? Remember, large numbers of Arabs were fighting for the Romans and Persians, the Roman allied Axum controlled a significant part of the Arab peninsula, many Arabs lived in the Roman Empire, They also had an Emperor Philip the Arab who was born in Syria. Yet they didn't appear to know that Mecca, a few hundred miles outside their Empire, was sacred to a vast majority of the Arabs, who went there frequently on pilgrimage?

I would guess that Mecca was a minor place of pilgrimage, one of many within the peninsula, and its importance to all Arabs is something that has been invented by Muslim historians. Historians in those days (not just Muslims) were not trying to write objective histories as some modern historians do, they tended to use history as something to explain the present state of affairs and justify current realities.

The Romans used tribes to protect their borders. If you look at the Western Roman Empire, it collapsed because these tribes became more powerful, wealthy and organised as a result of this process and realised the Romans could no longer defend themselves if they attacked. There is a high degree of likelihood that this process contributed to the rise of the Arabs also. However, despite this degree of integration, no Romans ever noted that Mecca was the single, preeminent site of Pilgrimage that was sacred to almost all Arabs?

Why should we believe this?

 

[icehorse]

icehorse
No doubt you have a mind of your own.Now don't let it bug you because its to do with your upbringing.I see you confirming your problem.Its to do with your suspicion and i did warn you earlier to keep an open mind.
Nontheless let me ask you a simple question.
What was your moral objective in reading the Noble Quraan?

Hey farouk,

Before I answer this I want to respond to your claim that the West's moralities are in the gutters. First, I would agree that the West has many problems, it's far from perfect! But for my money, secularism, free thought and universal human rights are the best path forward. As near as I can tell, your suggestion is that we all follow unalterable dogma from a culture we can all now see was quite primitive compared to today. no thanks.

My objective in reading the Quran and studying Islam is to try to understand what Muslims value and believe. So far, it seems to me that the positive morals Muslims describe to me have been widely held by decent people forever, and I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to tie all that scriptural baggage to these morals that everyone holds anyway?

 

[faroukfarouk]

The Kabaa in Mecca as a major place of pilgrimage is something completely missing from non-Muslim history. If a large majority of the Arabs saw it as sacred, why did no one else know about it? Remember, large numbers of Arabs were fighting for the Romans and Persians, the Roman allied Axum controlled a significant part of the Arab peninsula, many Arabs lived in the Roman Empire, They also had an Emperor Philip the Arab who was born in Syria. Yet they didn't appear to know that Mecca, a few hundred miles outside their Empire, was sacred to a vast majority of the Arabs, who went there frequently on pilgrimage?

I would guess that Mecca was a minor place of pilgrimage, one of many within the peninsula, and its importance to all Arabs is something that has been invented by Muslim historians. Historians in those days (not just Muslims) were not trying to write objective histories as some modern historians do, they tended to use history as something to explain the present state of affairs and justify current realities.

The Romans used tribes to protect their borders. If you look at the Western Roman Empire, it collapsed because these tribes became more powerful, wealthy and organised as a result of this process and realised the Romans could no longer defend themselves if they attacked. There is a high degree of likelihood that this process contributed to the rise of the Arabs also. However, despite this degree of integration, no Romans ever noted that Mecca was the single, preeminent site of Pilgrimage that was sacred to almost all Arabs?

Why should we believe this?

Augustus
I do think you are having a problem looking for books written by non-muslims.
Read a book written by the Roman historian Diodorus Siculus.He did mention that there was in Arabia a temple greatly revered by the Arabs.This was before Jesus(PBBUH) was even born.
Then another book written by Ptolemy who was a geographer and he mentions it in his work but he calls it the 'macoraba'.
Another historian called Hurgronjes he also mentions it.
Please reframe from making bias and false statements.The books are there and all you got to do is do your own research.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is an imbalance in the human sex ratio.More females than males.Islam gives you a solution and that is polygamy.
Modern man says no polygamy is immoral so their solution is to make their daughters prostitutes.

You know, Farouk, it would do a lot to improve the quality of our exchanges with you if you just were a bit more careful with such broad judgements.

The least I can say about your text above is that it is biased, ignores the simple fact that the specific challenges and problems vary a lot from one place to the next, and is insulting to boot.

Now that is what you call improvement of moral perception.

I would need some evidence for that.

From a moral perspective the West is going to the gutters and they are no indifferent to the Arab culture before the advent of Islam.

I believe you meant "no different". In any case, that is both an oversimplification and just not well argued at all.

 

[Augustus]

Augustus
I do think you are having a problem looking for books written by non-muslims.
Read a book written by the Roman historian Diodorus Siculus.He did mention that there was in Arabia a temple greatly revered by the Arabs.This was before Jesus(PBBUH) was even born.
Then another book written by Ptolemy who was a geographer and he mentions it in his work but he calls it the 'macoraba'.
Another historian called Hurgronjes he also mentions it.
Please reframe from making bias and false statements.The books are there and all you got to do is do your own research.

Bias? I am simply applying normal historical standards to this, rather than treating Islamic history as somehow exceptional. You might believe Islamic history is miraculous and totally free from the same kind of errors, exaggerations and biases that we see in the histories all other societies in history, but don't expect others to do this, and don't claim that any attempt to question it is biased or 'anti-Muslim', it is simply the process of honest historical enquiry.

None of the things you mention deal with what I actually said though. I didn't say Mecca was a fictitious place.

I think Mecca is a real place, had a sacred stone that was probably a meteorite and was probably a site of minor significance, but the idea that it was the centre of the entire Arab world seems to be very difficult to support.

In 700+ years, the only references are to an undefined great temple, which could be anywhere in Arabia, a place called Macoraba, that is not assigned any significance and might not even be Mecca as its location was not quite correct (iirc) and maybe 1 other incidental mention.

If this place was the centre of the Arab world, why did nobody else know this despite the fact that on all sides of Mecca, highly literate cultures had been living and interacting with the Arabs for many, many centuries?

There are in fact references to other places sacred to the Arabs, so we can assume there was more than 1 sacred place. Sozomen wrote about Arabs visiting a tree and well linked to Abraham in Mamre every year. There are other Kaabas attested to, for example in Najran. So this evidence, and the lack of evidence about Mecca, seems to strongly suggest that Mecca was only a minor pilgrimage site, rather than the centre of the Arab world.

Once Mecca was established as the centre of the Islamic world, it makes sense for people to assume/invent that it had always been the most important. Ancient history is full of such similar myth making. Now, removing your bias, why would you expect any non-Muslim to believe that Mecca has always been the undeniable centre of the Arab world?

If you have any actual evidence to present to support this hypothesis, the go ahead and present it. If it is convincing, I will admit that I am wrong and thank you for teaching me something. I don't care if Mecca was or was not the centre of the Arab world for any particular reason, it's just that I think it is not actually true.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Before I answer this I want to respond to your claim that the West's moralities are in the gutters. First, I would agree that the West has many problems, it's far from perfect!

Did you say many?
Prepare for a shock.
Approximately one-third of the entire population of the United States (110 million people) currently has a sexually transmitted disease according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Every single year, there are 20 million new STD cases in America.
America has the highest STD infection rate in the entire industrialized World.
The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the entire industrialized world.
According to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, there are more than 747,000 registered sex offenders in the United States.
18% of all women in the United States say that they have been raped at some point in their lives.
Law enforcement officials estimate that about 600,000 Americans are trading dirty child pictures online.
The marriage rate in the United States has fallen to an all-time low. Right now it is sitting at a yearly rate of 6.8 marriages per 1000 people.
America has the highest divorce rate in the world by a good margin.
According to the Pew Research Center, only 51% of all American adults are currently married. Back in 1960 72% of all adults in the United States were married.
For women under the age of 30 in the United States,more than half are being born out of wedlock.(********)
In a massacre that is almost unspeakable,more than 56 million babies have been slaughtered in this country since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973.
Approximately 47% of the women that get an abortion each year in the United States have also had a previous abortion.
The number of American babies killed by abortion each year is app equal to the number of U.S. military deaths that have occurred in all of the wars that the United States has ever been involved in combined.
A Department of Homeland Security report that was released in January 2012 says that if you are “anti-abortion”, you are a potential terrorist.
The number of active members of the U.S. military that kill themselves each year now exceeds the number that are dying on the battlefield.
According to one absolutely shocking study, 22 military veterans kill themselves in the United States every single day.
In America today, there are 60 million people that abuse alcohol and there are 22 million people that use illegal drugs.
Incredibly, more than 11% of all Americans that are 12 years of age or older admit that they have driven home under the influence of alcohol at least once during the past year.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, doctors in the United States write more than 250 million prescriptions for antidepressants each year.
Right now, there are 70 million Americans that are on mind-altering drugs of one form or another.
It is hard to believe, but 56% of all Americans now have “subprime credit”.
Of all the major industrialized nations, America is the most obese.

And the list just goes on and on........If you want more let me know i could just fill pages.
No doubt you have a major problem and your problem is just compounding.

But for my money, secularism, free thought and universal human rights are the best path forward. As near as I can tell, your suggestion is that we all follow unalterable dogma from a culture we can all now see was quite primitive compared to today. no thanks.

Its a matter of choice.You like secularism.There are others that prefer Communism.I prefer Islam.
Now who made such a suggestion that you follow my culture?

My objective in reading the Quran and studying Islam is to try to understand what Muslims value and believe.

Now why study Islam if you happy with secularism or maybe you not happy with secularism.I recon you not sure of yourself.

So far, it seems to me that the positive morals Muslims describe to me have been widely held by decent people forever, and I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to tie all that scriptural baggage to these morals that everyone holds anyway?

Yes i agree with you that our morals have been widely held by only decent people but today all that decent people have some what disappeared.Immoral behaviour have now become moral through change in definition of words.
Study the following and you will understand my point.
These are the views of atheist in the USA.
75% gambling is moral.
87% living with someone of the opposite sex without being married(called co-habititation) is moral.
71% having abortion is moral.
69% having sex with opposite sex to whom you are not married is moral.
70% looking at pictures of nudity or explicit sexual behaviour is moral.
68% using profanity is moral.

Keep in mind that Islamic scriptural morals are timeless.It started more than 1400 years ago and it will remain till the day of reckoning.The difference is man made morals change with the tide.What was immoral yesterday is now moral today.Its just a matter of time before young boys will be allowed to have sex with their mothers.

 

[icehorse]

Hi farouk,

As far as West-bashing goes, I already acknowledged that the West has it's problems. I'd encourage you to read "Why the West is Best", by Ibn Warraq, to get a sense of the West's contributions to the world. Contributions that you benefit from every day.

As for me personally, I'm a critic of much of what goes on in the West. My take is that the UN Declaration on Human Rights is a baseline guide to civilization that we should all be working towards. (It includes controversial ideas like freedom of religion and freedom from religion.)

So, I'll bash Islam, I'll bash Christianity, I'll bash any action that goes against human rights, I'll bash oligarchy, and so on...

But THIS thread is about Islam.

 

[gsa]

For being so deeply immoral, the West sure as hell manages to attract a lot of Muslims.

I particularly like the suggestion that the alternative to polygamy is prostitution, and that sex offenses are more widespread here. As if Islamist marriage wasn't itself a form of slavery and prostitution. As if Islamists didn't make proving sexual offenses against women and children impossible to prove and risky for the victim.

Carry on defending the indefensible.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The Kabaa in Mecca as a major place of pilgrimage is something completely missing from non-Muslim history. If a large majority of the Arabs saw it as sacred, why did no one else know about it?

Firstly Greek historian Diodorus Siculus was a non-muslim and this answers the first part of your question.
Secondly he mentions Mecca and the Kaaba as ""And a temple as been set up there,which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians"".
Now that answers your second part.
Finally do you know what is the meaning of Macoraba. Maco in arabic means house and raba means lord.
Macoraba simply means House of the God.Prophet Ibraham(PBBUH) built this house and called it the House of Allah.The Arabs pre-Islam called it the House of Allah and to this day we all call it "The House of allah".

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi farouk,

As far as West-bashing goes, I already acknowledged that the West has it's problems. I'd encourage you to read "Why the West is Best", by Ibn Warraq, to get a sense of the West's contributions to the world. Contributions that you benefit from every day.

As for me personally, I'm a critic of much of what goes on in the West. My take is that the UN Declaration on Human Rights is a baseline guide to civilization that we should all be working towards. (It includes controversial ideas like freedom of religion and freedom from religion.)

So, I'll bash Islam, I'll bash Christianity, I'll bash any action that goes against human rights, I'll bash oligarchy, and so on...

But THIS thread is about Islam.

Please,please.......no i am not bashing anyone.All i am doing is giving you facts.The West has major problems because there policies have given them such freedom that they have turned their backs on religion.Stats have proven that religion is declining at a very fast rate in the US and this is the major cause of its decline in morality.
My point is you have man made laws that will degenerate moral values in man at a very fast rate and on the other hand you have an Islamic State(Religious State) with morals value very intact.The laws of Shariah are strict so that man does not degenerate his moral values.

 

[gsa]

Please,please.......no i am not bashing anyone.All i am doing is giving you facts.The West has major problems because there policies have given them such freedom that they have turned their backs on religion.Stats have proven that religion is declining at a very fast rate in the US and this is the major cause of its decline in morality.
My point is you have man made laws that will degenerate moral values in man at a very fast rate and on the other hand you have an Islamic State(Religious State) with morals value very intact.The laws of Shariah are strict so that man does not degenerate his moral values.

You are now defending the Islamic State?

 

[icehorse]

Please,please.......no i am not bashing anyone.All i am doing is giving you facts.The West has major problems because there policies have given them such freedom that they have turned their backs on religion.Stats have proven that religion is declining at a very fast rate in the US and this is the major cause of its decline in morality.
My point is you have man made laws that will degenerate moral values in man at a very fast rate and on the other hand you have an Islamic State(Religious State) with morals value very intact.The laws of Shariah are strict so that man does not degenerate his moral values.

I consider my values and morals to be better than any set of values I've ever heard any religious people claim.

 

[faroukfarouk]

icehorse
Tell me what is your view on usury.

 

[icehorse]

icehorse
Tell me what is your view on usury.

Economies are complex machines that - like any complex machine - need to be supervised and fine-tuned. At the highest level, I believe that we need economic regulations.

As for usury, well sometimes bankers are corrupt, and sometimes bankers are fair. So of course I don't agree with usury, but I think that earning a certain amount of interest for providing a loan can be morally ok.