I got a question for you guys!

[rageoftyrael]

Well, at the time, i wasn't sure whether i was atheist or not when i wrote this. Now i know i'm an atheist, and pretty much know the whole discussion was moot. Though i was a little overzealous in how i decided to put forth my views. Your water thing means nothing by the way. I'll need a little bit more proof than, "i got some tasty lake water!" to believe in god.

 

[shortfade2]

well obviously. I was mearly saying that to help remind the other Christians that God's promises are true even today. As for conclusive evidence that god exsists...There is probably no way to prove god conclusively. Just like I cant disprove God conclusively.

 

[rageoftyrael]

pretty much....

 

[S-word]

QUOTE rageoftyrael: And just to clarify to s-word, i don't hate god, i simply said that if god was the way i described him, then i would much dislike him. Though i find it funny that you think god will punish me for calling me out, and then go on to say im too insignificant for him to care.

By S-word: While browsing through this thread, I just noticed your response to one of my posts, which I now respond to.

i don't hate god. By S-word: Then I’d hate to hear what you call those whom you do hate, but nevertheless, here are my exact words; "Settle down there sonny. I’d hate to see the “Big Jerk” the name that you have given to my God, come down on you real hard, which He will do if you continue to offend those who are in tune with the indwelling ancestral spirit who was in the beginning and has become who I am, who you are, and all that exists; although it matters not to Him what names you may call Him, for it takes more than “Little Jerks” like yourself to offend Him personally."

Little jerks like yourself cannot offend Him personally, had you have continued to offend his nearest and dearest you may have suffered, but i see that you made a bumbling effort to apologise to those whom you were offending. I'm sorry guys, i went off cause the reason - etc.

QUOTE rageoftyrael: yes, this thread was about the character of a certain god. If your god is not like this, than you have no reason to be upset by my words. This goes for other threads as well. Oh, and please don't mistake theoretical questions as afronts to your god anymore, it just shows your ignorance.

By S-word: Yes, and the certain God whose character you were attacking by calling him a lying jerk, was the God of the Bible, the God of my ancestor Abraham. So, in my opinion, if god is real, and the bible is actually more consistent than i think,--- He is a hypocrite, a liar, and just an all around jerk.



QUOTE rageoftyrael: Isn't it said that god said that he gave us free will? Cause if he did, but yet he is omniscient, than he's a jerk who lied. There is no free will in something that cannot be changed. Free will doesn't exist, even if we think it does, if our lives are preordained.

By S-word: Your life is not preordained, the Omega who you have called a hypocrite, a liar, and just an all around Jerk, who is the end result of this period of universal activity and is one with the Alpha from whom he originated, may know everything that has occurred in his dead past, but what you have done and will do, on which you will be judged, has and will be done according to the free will that has been given to you

QUOTE rageoftyrael: So, in my opinion, if god is real, and the bible is actually more consistent than i think, why would anyone worship god? He is a hypocrite, a liar, and just an all around jerk. Throughout all of this note that, i never say he isn't real. Just that if he is, and the bible gets it right, he mindf*cked us with that promise.

By S-word: As everyone can see, your reference here is not to some impersonal God, but the one and only God of the Bible. How could he have mindf*cked you with that promise, when your mind was already f*cked ?


QUOTE rageoftyrael: I ask you, how can christians call this being merciful? He saves us from what? WHAT HE CREATED! I will never follow god, even if irrefutable evidence is put forward that he is real. And then, i would probably go to hell, and i would probably think that the better choice than bowing to an unjust king. Of course, god would have to exist for that to be true, and im still an agnostic, so whatever.


By S-word: Because if you said to any other King that he had mindf*cked you, and then called him a hypocrite, a liar and an all around Jerk, you would be a dead man. But he is merciful toward you, and allows you the time to repent and to return to him, that’s why.


QUOTE rageoftyrael: I will never follow god, even if irrefutable evidence is put forward that he is real. And then, i would probably go to hell, and i would probably think that the better choice than bowing to an unjust king.


By S-word: Then so be it according to your free will.

 

[emiliano]

Isn't it said that god said that he gave us free will? Cause if he did, but yet he is omniscient, than he's a jerk who lied. There is no free will in something that cannot be changed. Free will doesn't exist, even if we think it does, if our lives are preordained.

I thought that this rant was about omniscience a man made word to express this characteristic of God of knowing all things, how does free will show that God does not know every thing? What has He lied about? What if God does not want you?

There is no free will in something that cannot be changed.

God can change anything that He wills.

So, in my opinion, if god is real, and the bible is actually more consistent than i think, why would anyone worship god?

God is worship because the great mercy He shows to His people and by giving us Salvation Grace, it funny how some people can’t take rejection like a man. Worshiping is for those that receive Grace, if you have not received it, you don’t have to worship Him and God knows what your answer to His offer of Salvation would be.

He is a hypocrite, a liar, and just an all around jerk. Throughout all of this note that, i never say he isn't real. Just that if he is, and the bible gets it right, he mindf*cked us with that promise.

Well this could be your reaction to attempts to convert you, some Christians have troubles accepting that some will die reprobate; I don’t get what is the chip on your shoulder. What promises has God made to you? What’s with US you are obviously not in God’s people, you are not in the US that God made promises to.

 

[Breathe]

I am of the view that God being omniscient in the Bible, in the way that He knows the future, like if we will commit an evil act in 30 years is not something in the Bible - the closest bits we get are that only God knows "the hour", for example.

I may be wrong, there may be something that I have missed, but (as far as I can remember), I've not seen anything that really speaks to me to support the view. There are things like "God knows everything in your heart" etc, but these imply the present as opposed to the past. Our traditional understanding of omniscience (usually) encompasses the future.

For instance,God knew that the Pharoah would not let the Hebrews out of Egypt is because God made the Pharoah unable to - if we take this as a literal, historical event. Exodus 4:21, "But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.".

Jeremiah 1:5 for example, says "Before I formed you I knew you ... I appointed you as a prophet to the nations". If we took Genesis as historical, then we encounter many an event where God grieves at what has happened to his creation (Noah's ark story).

For some of the NT Biblical stories, it feels a bit like 'reading into' it to me.

Bible Study with BibleStudyGuide.org. Study the Bible on the Internet. <--- awful site, but I still browsed through it
Apologetics Press - The Omniscience of God <-- The "God knows every future action is a bit "um.. how did you get that?"
Wait, that&#8217;s (not) in the Bible?! God&#8217;s Omniscience | Faith-Promoting Rumor

My $0.02

 

[Muffled]

I suspect this is a derivatin of God's creation:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth

ie. It takes an all knowing God to create everything that is known. First He had to know what to create and then He had to know how to create it. Having created it all then He knows all about what He has created. Have I left out anything that can be known?

 

[Kathryn]

If this isn't the definition of omniscient, I don't know what is (from the book of Job, the oldest book in the bible):

Job 38


1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? 41Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

King James Version (KJV)

I rest my case.

 

[gwk230]

where in the bible does it state that god is omniscient? When i say this, i mean, where does it say in the bible that god himself ascribed himself to this ability.

It doesn't because he isn't. To say he is makes "freewill" nothing. We know we have freewill so then we know he does not know what choice we may make before we make it. Now he can assume being there may be a history of what we have so chosen and done in the past. Our nature if you will. But he does not know beyond a shadow of doubt that one may choose the good over the evil. I can go with that he knows more than anyone else and may even know the outcome of all things as in the big picture only because it is what he designed to happen and how it is to happen but on an individuale basis I do not believe he knows what we will choose until we actually choose it. He may know our thoughts as we think them and he may see all that may influence us but again he will only know what we choose when we have chosen it.

 

[Enoch07]

Isn't it said that god said that he gave us free will?

The first test or idea of free will is in Genesis. Genesis 2:15 - 2:25 then it continues through to Genesis 3 and also the repercussions.

Basically Adam and Eve were put in Eden. God said do what you want, just stay away from that certain tree. We all know the rest. As far the omniscient vs free will goes, Beauderaux (misspelled that i am sure) has a debate about that, which after a few hundred post neither side gained ground. It simple comes down to whether you accept free will and omniscience or you simple do not, debating it is like trying to knockout air, you'll eventually just wind up uppercutting yourself in the face.

 

[McBell]

where in the bible does it state that god is omniscient?

It doesn't.
All you will get are the verses people use to justify their belief that He is.

If God is in fact all knowing, one can only conclude that he knowingly set man up to fail with the OT.

 

[Breathe]

If this isn't the definition of omniscient, I don't know what is (from the book of Job, the oldest book in the bible):
<<snip Biblical extract>>
I rest my case.

But all that refers to past and present - not future. Most people include knowing the future in omniscience.

.. Right?

 

[emiliano]

But all that refers to past and present - not future. Most people include knowing the future in omniscience.

.. Right?

God exist outside time and is not subject to time tenses, God is eternal (not limited by time), God is perfect and not subjected to change, past present and future a changes

 

[Breathe]

God exist outside time and is not subject to time tenses, God is eternal (not limited by time), God is perfect and not subjected to change, past present and future a changes

That makes sense
But, as it's a Biblical debates section, is there any Biblical support for it..?

 

[Willamena]

But all that refers to past and present - not future. Most people include knowing the future in omniscience.

.. Right?

From Wikipedia: Omniscience "is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc."

 

[Willamena]

Job 24:1
1 &#8220;Since times are not hidden from the Almighty,
Why do those who know Him see not His days?. . .

 

[Willamena]

Jeremiah 23:24
Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?&#8221; says the LORD;

&#8220; Do I not fill heaven and earth?&#8221; says the LORD.

(Which inexorably links omniscience with omnipresence.)

 

[Willamena]

I heard a strong argument once for this supporting omniscience.

Jeremiah 1:
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
&#8220; Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;. . .

 

[LittleNipper]

I would suggest that everyone read the book of JOB ----- especially, when one is happy. Job's conclusions in the last chapter are telling.

 

[Muffled]

It doesn't.
All you will get are the verses people use to justify their belief that He is.

If God is in fact all knowing, one can only conclude that he knowingly set man up to fail with the OT.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the tree was there for a reason.