I have a feeling that the afterlife doesn't exist

[osgart]

Fear of doom, or being caught as a basis for one's morals is not moral at all. It's self evident.

Genuine morality is the desire and care to do right by others and self.

This needs no further evidence nor explanation.

Your morality is how you actually are and what motivates you to do right. Fear of consequences is clearly not moral.

 

[Link]

Fear of doom, or being caught as a basis for one's morals is not moral at all. It's self evident.

Genuine morality is the desire and care to do right by others and self.

This needs no further evidence nor explanation.

Your morality is how you actually are and what motivates you to do right. Fear of consequences is clearly not moral.

To me empathy and respect for others and caring for others when one does not see the next world nor the bridge and accounting is a lesser form of human goodness which can lead one to regain faith in God. If God didn't allow this sense to continue - there would be no way to ignite light and return to God once one leaves faith.

However, if you see God and the bridge and are in touch with the lanterns of the unseen higher realm and sky reality talked about in the Quran. Then to not act on fear would be disbelief in all that. If you see God and spiritual path - and are aware of the unseen weapons of light vs darkness, and nature of actions take living form in our souls, then avoiding darkness and misguiding people that destroy the soul should be out of fear. If you see the nature of the bridge over hell, then you should avoid falling off and not ignite the flames of hell.

If you see the bridge, the only way to not act on fear, is to disbelieve in what you see.

 

[osgart]

To me empathy and respect for others and caring for others when one does not see the next world nor the bridge and accounting is a lesser form of human goodness which can lead one to regain faith in God. If God didn't allow this sense to continue - there would be no way to ignite light and return to God once one leaves faith.

However, if you see God and the bridge and are in touch with the lanterns of the unseen higher realm and sky reality talked about in the Quran. Then to not act on fear would be disbelief in all that. If you see God and spiritual path - and are aware of the unseen weapons of light vs darkness, and nature of actions take living form in our souls, then avoiding darkness and misguiding people that destroy the soul should be out of fear. If you see the nature of the bridge over hell, then you should avoid falling off and not ignite the flames of hell.

If you see the bridge, the only way to not act on fear, is to disbelieve in what you see.

This seems to make the assumption that everyone is in need of mercy. Perhaps fear keeps the immoral from stepping out of line with a perceived moral deity.

Fear might be an appropriate response for one who is immoral. Nothing changes the fact that genuine morality is one's own desire to be moral.

Hypothetically why would a moral God want anything to do with those who only do right out of fear? There's no relationship there. It's dependency on the moral God without the care or desire to be moral. Do you think fear is a step toward repentance?

 

[Link]

This seems to make the assumption that everyone is in need of mercy. Perhaps fear keeps the immoral from stepping out of line with a perceived moral deity.

Fear might be an appropriate response for one who is immoral. Nothing changes the fact that genuine morality is one's own desire to be moral.

Hypothetically why would a moral God want anything to do with those who only do right out of fear? There's no relationship there. It's dependency on the moral God without the care or desire to be moral. Do you think fear is a step toward repentance?

That doesn't make sense. How can we fear doing evil without evil itself being evil and good without good being good in itself. I'm saying when you see the path, there is a greater motivation then just the acts of empathy and justice as far as avoiding evil which is avoiding forever doom. But we are talking about avoiding evil. The actions to do good that are non-obligations does take love and hope. Fear can only motivate you to obligations and avoid evils, but fear won't even make you do the obligations as best as you can. For example, Salah has a lot of potential. It's best done out of love and hope.

Likewise, when one enjoys Quran, it's out of love of God and appreciating who he is and how he talks. Connecting to God is not purely out of fear. But avoiding evil should be primarily fear motivated if one sees the consequences of the ugliness and damnation and pain that results from evil.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If your morality is dependent on an afterlife you aren't moral to begin with.

Agreed. If your good behavior is to earn a reward or escape punishment, you're no more moral than your dog or preschool children, who do the same thing.

There's a phrase humanist like taken from a Christmas song: Be good for goodness' sake. If your purpose for doing something isn't loving, that is, isn't to be kind, generous, protective, or supportive of another because it makes you feel good to promote their well-being, then your morality is in some sense self-serving, which diminishes its moral status

do you mean that each star shoots atoms and they form each body with billions of atoms from lots and lots of different stars?

No.

All stars cook helium and hydrogen into heavier elements such as carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, and phosphorous. Some of these stars are massive enough to supernova and spread their contents to distant nebula, enriching them with these heavier elements as was the case with the cloud that collapsed some 4.5+ billion years leading to the advent of the sun, the planets, their moons, and comets and asteroids.

When earth formed, it became a rock due to these heavier elements, and when abiogenesis began, the elements that characterize life that I listed above were present. Water to form oceans wasn't there originally but came in later from the outer solar system.

Are you God?

There are no gods that we are aware of. I am, however, the highest authority in my life. I submit to the law and my wife's wishes, but those are choices I make because they promote my happiness and my well-being.

So, yes then. I am the god of my life.

Brother, that's an illogical statement. Just because someone says he is scared of being jailed so he will not steal does not mean he does not have an innate morality built in.

He said, "If your morality is dependent on an afterlife you aren't moral to begin with." Your comment doesn't address that.

I would say you can be empathic without afterlife, however, you cannot be moral. This is because what makes actions worthwhile is their goal, and God should be the end goal intention.

Too bad religion has distracted you like this. I say love the one you're with, not imagined spirits in imagined spaces.

We can care about empathy, but without next world, the ranks to morality is just an illusion.

Empathy is enough. In my opinion, gods and afterlives are the illusion. We can't both be right.

To me life would be too evil without God.

That's unfortunate. I find life very appealing without gods.

Fear should be the reason we avoid evil.

Disagree. It's love. Like I said, be good for goodness' sake. Be good because it feels good.

I used to live in rural Missouri, where turtles would be seen crossing desolate country roads. Some of the local good ol' boys in their pickups liked to swerve to kill them, so I would stop when I saw one and take it to the other side of the road in the direction it was heading. Those were spiritual experiences for me. I felt godlike - at least for a moment is a small corner of the universe - and I felt a rush or thrill. Nobody would have seen this but me. I expected no reward apart from the euphoria of I got doing good for goodness sake, which more than enough.

Doing these things for fear of a god disapproving because you didn't do them or to get a reward from such a god is a far shallower experience in my experience. Is that still available to you?

Your actions are like seeds, without an afterlife, morality is a deception.

These are the kinds of things that make me object to some of these religions. I don't feel like that at all. You're So Far Away from me

Here's our band covering this song, with the wife on bass and vocals, Khanu on rhythm guitar, and me on lead guitar and vocals. I hope you like this kind of music. This is a spiritual experience for me both to play it and hear it again:

 

[Link]

Imam Jaffar (a) from Misbahal Shariah:


The roots of conduct have four aspects: conduct with Allah, conduct with the self, conduct with creation (i.e. people), and conduct with this world. Each of these aspects is based upon seven principles, just as there are seven principles of conduct with Allah: giving Him His due, keeping His limits, being thankful for His gift, being content with His decree, being patient with His trials, glorifying His sanctity, and yearning for Him.

The seven principles of conduct with the self are fear, striving, enduring harm, spiritual discipline, seeking truthfulness and sincerity, withdrawing the self from what it loves, and binding it in poverty (faqr).

The seven principles of conduct with creation are forbearance, forgiveness, humility, generosity, compassion, good counsel, justice and fairness.

The seven principles of conduct with this world are being content with what is at hand, preferring what is available to what is not, abandoning the quest for the elusive, hating overabundance, choosing abstinence (zuhd), knowing the evils of this world and abandoning any desire for it, and negating its dominance.

When all these qualities are found in one person, he is then one of Allah's elite, one of His close bondsman and friends (awliya')

My comment:

I believe that the only conduct and ethics that would exist without God and even a very pale version of it, would be:

The seven principles of conduct with creation are forbearance, forgiveness, humility, generosity, compassion, good counsel, justice and fairness.

That said, fear is not even in the category with God and relationship to him, it's in the category of how we take care of our self.

As for fear, hope and love, this how Imam Jaffar (a) described the relationship:


The intimate conversation of the knowers possesses three roots: fear, hope and love. Fear is the branch of knowledge; hope is the branch of certainty, and love is the branch of gnosis (ma'rifah) . The proof of fear is flight; the proof of hope is quest, and the proof of love is preferring the Beloved over all others.

When knowledge is confirmed in truthfulness, he fears. When fear is genuine, he flees. When he flees, he is saved. When he sees the light of certainty in the heart, he sees overflowing favour. When the vision of overflowing favour is firm, there is hope. When he feels the sweetness of belief in hope, he seeks. When he has success in the quest, he finds. When the light of gnosis is manifested in his heart, the breeze of love stirs, he settles in the shadow of the Beloved, prefers the Beloved over all others, follows His commands and avoids His prohibitions, and chooses them over everything else. When he perseveres towards intimacy with the Beloved while carrying out His commands and avoiding His prohibitions, he has reached the spirit of intimate communion and nearness.

These three roots are like the sanctuary, the mosque, and the Ka'bah: whoever enters the Sacred Precinct is safe from people. If a person enters the mosque, his senses are safe from being used in disobedience, and if a person enters the Ka'bah, his heart is safe from being occupied with anything other than the remembrance of Allah.

Take heed, O believer! If you are in a state in which you are content to meet death, then thank Allah for His grace and protection. If it is other than that, then move from it with sound resolution, and have regret for that part of your life which passed in heedlessness. Seek Allah's help in purifying your outward nature of wrong actions and cleanse your inward being from faults. Cut the shackles of heedlessness from your heart, and extinguish the fire of desires in your soul.

 

[osgart]

You said: That doesn't make sense. How can we fear doing evil without evil itself being evil and good without good being good in itself.

I say: It's the fear of not doing good because of the consequences of doing evil.

 

[firedragon]

There are no gods that we are aware of. I am, however, the highest authority in my life. I submit to the law and my wife's wishes, but those are choices I make because they promote my happiness and my well-being.

So, yes then. I am the god of my life.

Nice. Cheers.

 

[YoursTrue]

Agreed. If your good behavior is to earn a reward or escape punishment, you're no more moral than your dog or preschool children, who do the same thing.
....

That's unfortunate. I find life very appealing without gods.

You have some very interesting thoughts there. I will say, however, that appealing as life can be for some, most people do not want to die. And many have unfulfilled or unhappy lives. Although some commit suicide, I would say most people do not look forward eagerly to death. And moving along a little further, gorillas and chimpanzees (here we go again) do not pay morticians and funeral directors.

 

[YoursTrue]

I mean, you get the gist. Having a bitter nature is not a bad thing, if we do it for sake of God.

Years ago I had a friend. He died young, they say of an overdose. He had a very convoluted attitude toward life. I respected him. But he was always on a "trip." Usually with heroin, not LSD or something like that. I wonder how he will feel towards God if he comes back to life in a resurrection.

 

[Muffled]

It has everything to do with a person. We are nothing else but atoms.

I believe we are spirit as well. The body is atoms and perishes.

 

[Muffled]

Evidence? Preferably evidence untainted by the presumption itself?

I believe the null hypothesis can't be proven. There is evidence for spirit testified by God but not everyone accepts that testimony.

 

[Muffled]

I have lost, in this order, my inlaws, my dad, my mom,. my younger brother, and finally, my HUSBAND, in just a few years. I went to so many funerals, as immediate family, that it began to seem unreal. So believe me when I say, I've thought a lot about this. So here is the conclusion I've come to:

I think that "heaven" is sort of a holding place, where people from all walks of life end up. I think it's interesting and keeps their attention, but I don't believe it's the end of it all. I believe that God will come again in His glory, to judge the living and the dead, and that His Kingdom will have no end. I don't know how long that will take and I also don't care. The point is that we will eventually be judged and will THEN either go to heaven or hell. I think we are all in for a lot of surprises. Oh well. That's my take on things. And I don't sit around worrying about all this because I can't think of anything to really DO about it all.

I believe Heaven is a recent offering by God as an alternative to life on earth. I believe before Jesus people slept in the grave until they had an opportunity to be re-incarnated. I believe God sends people into new bodies based on His judgment of their needs. I believe our eternal destination is the New Jerusalem on a new earth if we know Jesus as Lord and Savior and Hell if we don't.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe Heaven is a recent offering by God as an alternative to life on earth. I believe before Jesus people slept in the grave until they had an opportunity to be re-incarnated. I believe God sends people into new bodies based on His judgment of their needs. I believe our eternal destination is the New Jerusalem on a new earth if we know Jesus as Lord and Savior and Hell if we don't.

You do you for sure! Like I have been saying, I think we are all in for some surprises on that day, Myself included.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I believe we are spirit as well. The body is atoms and perishes.

I'm not privy to think there is a spirit, but I do think atoms combine and disperse that makes up and tear down lifeforms in an amazing manner where molecules create and destroy life much like lighting and blowing out a flame, causing me to lean more on making an educated guess with rebirth rather than one having a soul that 'lives' in a body.

 

[Whateverist]

I believe the null hypothesis can't be proven. There is evidence for spirit testified by God but not everyone accepts that testimony.

I think there is something which spirit means but I don't know what you have in mind when you say there is evidence it exists. I don't think there is any such objective evidence which can't be accounted for without it.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have a feeling that the afterlife doesn't exist

So let me ask you this question, paarsurrey--do you think/believe that Jesus was born to Mary? I'd first have to understand your concept here, then maybe we can discuss other things.

Yes, (Jesus) Yeshua was born to Mary, who was never a wife of G-d, for Mary's account I give some verses here and some others at the bottom of this post, one may certainly like to read them all.
19:20
He replied, ‘I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a righteous son.’
19:35
Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.https://www.alislam.org/quran/app/19:35
Right?

Regards
____________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time, below:-
19:20 قَالَ اِنَّمَاۤ اَنَا رَسُوۡلُ رَبِّکِ ٭ۖ لِاَہَبَ لَکِ غُلٰمًا زَکِیًّا ﴿۲۰
OOO

		19:20 قَالَ اِنَّمَاۤ اَنَا رَسُوۡلُ رَبِّکِ ٭ۖ لِاَہَبَ لَکِ غُلٰمًا زَکِیًّا ﴿۲۰ He replied, ‘I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a righteous son.’
(19:16:4) maryama	Maryam	وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انْتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book. When she withdrew from her people to a place to the east, | Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(19:27:6) yāmaryamu	O Maryam	فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, ‘O Mary, thou hast brought forth a strange thing.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(19:34:4) maryama	(of) Maryam	ذَٰلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(23:50:3) maryama	(of) Maryam	وَجَعَلْنَا ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ آيَةً وَآوَيْنَاهُمَا إِلَىٰ رَبْوَةٍ ذَاتِ قَرَارٍ وَّمَعِیۡنٍ And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them refuge on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

(66:12:1) wamaryama

And Maryam

وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخۡنَا فِیۡہِ مِنۡ رُّوۡحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتۡ بِکَلِمٰتِ رَبِّہَا وَکُتُبِہٖ وَکَانَتۡ مِنَ الۡقٰنِتِیۡنَ And the example of Mary, the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her private parts — so We breathed into him of Our Spirit — and she fulfilled in her person the words of her Lord and His Books and was one of the obedient.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

 

[YoursTrue]

I have a feeling that the afterlife doesn't exist

Yes, (Jesus) Yeshua was born to Mary, who was never a wife of G-d, for Mary's account I give some verses here and some others at the bottom of this post, one may certainly like to read them all.
19:20
He replied, ‘I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a righteous son.’
19:35
Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.https://www.alislam.org/quran/app/19:35
Right?

Regards
____________________
Original Arabic narration/text from Muhammad's time, below:-
19:20 قَالَ اِنَّمَاۤ اَنَا رَسُوۡلُ رَبِّکِ ٭ۖ لِاَہَبَ لَکِ غُلٰمًا زَکِیًّا ﴿۲۰
OOO

		19:20 قَالَ اِنَّمَاۤ اَنَا رَسُوۡلُ رَبِّکِ ٭ۖ لِاَہَبَ لَکِ غُلٰمًا زَکِیًّا ﴿۲۰ He replied, ‘I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a righteous son.’
(19:16:4) maryama	Maryam	وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انْتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا And relate the story of Mary as mentioned in the Book. When she withdrew from her people to a place to the east, | Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(19:27:6) yāmaryamu	O Maryam	فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, ‘O Mary, thou hast brought forth a strange thing.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(19:34:4) maryama	(of) Maryam	ذَٰلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
(23:50:3) maryama	(of) Maryam	وَجَعَلْنَا ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ آيَةً وَآوَيْنَاهُمَا إِلَىٰ رَبْوَةٍ ذَاتِ قَرَارٍ وَّمَعِیۡنٍ And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them refuge on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

(66:12:1) wamaryama

And Maryam

وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخۡنَا فِیۡہِ مِنۡ رُّوۡحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتۡ بِکَلِمٰتِ رَبِّہَا وَکُتُبِہٖ وَکَانَتۡ مِنَ الۡقٰنِتِیۡنَ And the example of Mary, the daughter of ‘Imran, who guarded her private parts — so We breathed into him of Our Spirit — and she fulfilled in her person the words of her Lord and His Books and was one of the obedient.| Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Whoever said Mary was a "wife of God"? I never heard that until you said that she was NEVER A WIFE OF GOD. Did someone say she was a "wife" of God?